Lowleveldevil
MEMBER
I didn’t mention 500 ft . I will eat my wing if I can’t land in 500 ft in the aircraft I’m going to build. I want the short field land and take off stol machine.
Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits
- Thread starter Lowleveldevil
- Start date
Lowleveldevil
MEMBER
Hi Stu have you flown a Carbon Cub and do you think the Rev 2 would perform better than a Carbon Cub
Lowleveldevil
MEMBER
Thx Denny I’m liking the more room idea and keep it light . The back country looks great for bigger blokes.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
Different animals, one is a Chevy El Camino and the other a tricked out F350
Glenn
Haven't flown one but came close to buying one. They're completely different airplanes. I made my choice based on what it can carry and how it performs when loaded. I'm still hoping the Wildcat dethrones my 180 but wifey says the 180 stays. That doesn't break my heart. Honestly? My Rev fixed what kept me from loving Supercubs. Big and easy to load. And the performance is great. The Carbon Cub is all about performance but I wouldn't trust it as a workhorse. Different planes for different priorities. I have no doubt the Carbon Cub is a fun plane. It just doesn't fit my needs.
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B
Barnstormer
I have over 900 hours and thousands of t/o's and landings in my SQ-2, almost all off-airport from Texas to Alaska.
It has a 205+hp O-375, P-Mags, Vetterman exhaust, with a Whirl Wind Aviation STOL 200A Constant Speed propellor. I've also flown about 50 hours with the Whirl Wind Aviation STOL 284 Constant Speed propellor.
It has Doug Keller's double-slotted fowler flaps (62 degrees fully drooped), early Mackey/Backcountry Slats with brackets permanently affixed to the wings under the fabric, and Roll Spoilers in front of the ailerons (similar to the Helio's Interrupters). The wings are square tipped and wingspan is just shy of 40 feet. Tail is oversized. VGs on the wings, and tail (both horizontals and vertical).
On the front 6" extended gear with TK-1 Racing shocks (next time she flies will be with TK-1 Racing 6" extended/3" forward gear and TK1 Racing shocks). 35's on Beringer Wheels and brakes. On the rear is a dual shock (one spring one gas) T3 suspension with a Matco tail wheel assembly and tire.
Slats: 2 per wing, operate automatically and independently. Extremely light so any concern about weight is mis-placed. Slats open any time the wing is producing lift- including when sitting on the ground with the wind blowing. How far they open depends on how much is asked of the plane. Slats make the SQ-2 essentially unstallable so unspinable- a huge safety feature for serious off-airport flying. They do create drag, 5-10mph worth depending on other things on the plane. Any time they are open they are doing two other things; helping keep the air attached to the wing, and creating lift themselves (which will be at a different angle than the wings lift).
Keller flaps: helps keep the deck angle horizontal at slower speeds. First three notches create extra lift. At the fourth notch huge amounts of drag (more than lift) so a quicker descent rate and shorter stop.
Roll Spoilers: help with roll control at super slow speeds when the ailerons become less affective.
OP, big wings and slats equals lots of lift at very low speeds. Mine flys at 25mph. Very cool EXCEPT when the wind is blowing 25mph (or more), you've landed and now you need to tie down. Consider this if you live in an area where the wind is always howling. Takeoff distance is of course very impressive, as is landing distance.
Also, when the underside of these big wings is exposed to gusty air some sporty things can occur, including getting flipped over. Even banking in turns with wind howling down side canyons can flip you over. Fortunately with slats you can keep the wings level and just rudder steer (no danger of a stall/spin).
Before considering a constant speed on a 180 horse I'd suggest you talk with Craig Catto first, my guess is he'll suggest a fixed pitch (which could also be a ground adjustable).
If this is the type of cub you are interested in building don't listen to advice from anyone who hasn't flown this type of plane extensively because they'll have opinions that are based on either what they've read or on hearsay, which more than likely won't be accurate.
And if this is type of cub you are interested in building, but you don't want to go with a high-compression fire breathing motor, consider going with an IO360 so you get 200hp instead of 180hp.
If you really aren't interested in extreme off-airport flying than this type of plane probably isn't for you- and that is okay- the number of pilots that actually do the type of flying that requires a plane like this is very small. A well thought out and built experimental stock-type cub in the hands of a very capable pilot will go 95% of places a cub like the SQ-2 will go.
It is of course the other 5% that makes me love my SQ-2, even if everybody runs away from me. The fun meter is pegged, and as long as I breathe it will never be for sale at any price.
It has a 205+hp O-375, P-Mags, Vetterman exhaust, with a Whirl Wind Aviation STOL 200A Constant Speed propellor. I've also flown about 50 hours with the Whirl Wind Aviation STOL 284 Constant Speed propellor.
It has Doug Keller's double-slotted fowler flaps (62 degrees fully drooped), early Mackey/Backcountry Slats with brackets permanently affixed to the wings under the fabric, and Roll Spoilers in front of the ailerons (similar to the Helio's Interrupters). The wings are square tipped and wingspan is just shy of 40 feet. Tail is oversized. VGs on the wings, and tail (both horizontals and vertical).
On the front 6" extended gear with TK-1 Racing shocks (next time she flies will be with TK-1 Racing 6" extended/3" forward gear and TK1 Racing shocks). 35's on Beringer Wheels and brakes. On the rear is a dual shock (one spring one gas) T3 suspension with a Matco tail wheel assembly and tire.
Slats: 2 per wing, operate automatically and independently. Extremely light so any concern about weight is mis-placed. Slats open any time the wing is producing lift- including when sitting on the ground with the wind blowing. How far they open depends on how much is asked of the plane. Slats make the SQ-2 essentially unstallable so unspinable- a huge safety feature for serious off-airport flying. They do create drag, 5-10mph worth depending on other things on the plane. Any time they are open they are doing two other things; helping keep the air attached to the wing, and creating lift themselves (which will be at a different angle than the wings lift).
Keller flaps: helps keep the deck angle horizontal at slower speeds. First three notches create extra lift. At the fourth notch huge amounts of drag (more than lift) so a quicker descent rate and shorter stop.
Roll Spoilers: help with roll control at super slow speeds when the ailerons become less affective.
OP, big wings and slats equals lots of lift at very low speeds. Mine flys at 25mph. Very cool EXCEPT when the wind is blowing 25mph (or more), you've landed and now you need to tie down. Consider this if you live in an area where the wind is always howling. Takeoff distance is of course very impressive, as is landing distance.
Also, when the underside of these big wings is exposed to gusty air some sporty things can occur, including getting flipped over. Even banking in turns with wind howling down side canyons can flip you over. Fortunately with slats you can keep the wings level and just rudder steer (no danger of a stall/spin).
Before considering a constant speed on a 180 horse I'd suggest you talk with Craig Catto first, my guess is he'll suggest a fixed pitch (which could also be a ground adjustable).
If this is the type of cub you are interested in building don't listen to advice from anyone who hasn't flown this type of plane extensively because they'll have opinions that are based on either what they've read or on hearsay, which more than likely won't be accurate.
And if this is type of cub you are interested in building, but you don't want to go with a high-compression fire breathing motor, consider going with an IO360 so you get 200hp instead of 180hp.
If you really aren't interested in extreme off-airport flying than this type of plane probably isn't for you- and that is okay- the number of pilots that actually do the type of flying that requires a plane like this is very small. A well thought out and built experimental stock-type cub in the hands of a very capable pilot will go 95% of places a cub like the SQ-2 will go.
It is of course the other 5% that makes me love my SQ-2, even if everybody runs away from me. The fun meter is pegged, and as long as I breathe it will never be for sale at any price.
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
I made him manual lock disc's, so he can install to lock them closed... if he needs to(high winds)...
probably need to add some Nord-loc lock washers to them so they can't vibrate loose in flight....
would be an interesting comparison test/flight...
I'm pleased to have a hangar. This plane wants to fly and tied outside in 35mph winds isn't something I enjoyed. Outdoor parking was a big concern and that issue is resolved, thanks to my wife.
I find it entertaining how guys with no slat experience advocate "tests" while guys with slat experience are content with pireps.
I find it entertaining how guys with no slat experience advocate "tests" while guys with slat experience are content with pireps.
Southern Aero
SPONSOR
kcco/1ga2
Barnstormer
Can you raise your spoilers on both sides at same time or only for roll control? Raising them both could help with after landings in high winds.........
Can you raise your spoilers on both sides at same time or only for roll control? Raising them both could help with after landings in high winds.........
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Those who are content with pireps are satisfied with the WOW
factor, which is understandable.The others who are advocating tests have inquisitive minds, always looking for the reasons and methods of squeezing the last ounce of performance out of the machine.
Some who you may think have no slat experience, may have no slat experience in Cubs but in reality have thousands of hours in other types of planes which do have slats. This may actually give them a good understanding of slats with them wondering just how much and whether or not and exactly how, they should be installed and used on the Cub.
It can be a very entertaining discussion. There are a large number of experienced airline and military pilots here who have many thousands of hours operating slats. Some of them have inquisitive minds, some are just content to fly a Cub.
Did you tape yarn on those airliners and military jets? I’m guessing you accepted information provided by others. Were you skeptical about that, too? Last I knew a slat kit was $4K and available to anyone who wants to buy one. If testing is what drives you? Test. I’m in it for fun, and the fun part is undeniable.
B
Barnstormer
They are only for roll control.
On the subject of controlling the slats, a few years ago I stopped in at Backcountry and they were working on a wing (on a plane) that had a separate slat handle (looked just like a flap handle). Don't know where they ended up with that project. I've always liked the idea of tying in the slats to the flaps. Pull on notch of flaps and the slats are released. Raise the flaps fully and that slats lock back down on the wing. Seems like it would be a lot lighter than a separate handle and mechanism. I can see it operate in my mind, just wish I had the know how to make it happen.
On the subject of controlling the slats, a few years ago I stopped in at Backcountry and they were working on a wing (on a plane) that had a separate slat handle (looked just like a flap handle). Don't know where they ended up with that project. I've always liked the idea of tying in the slats to the flaps. Pull on notch of flaps and the slats are released. Raise the flaps fully and that slats lock back down on the wing. Seems like it would be a lot lighter than a separate handle and mechanism. I can see it operate in my mind, just wish I had the know how to make it happen.
Phil,
What’s your cruise speed? I remember reading that you pinned the slats closed when you flew the plane north. How much difference did that make in speed, handling, etc? Normal cruise in my plane nets 100 mph with 35s. I’m not unhappy with that. If pinning the slats closed gained 2-3-4 mph? I wouldn’t pursue a cockpit slat control. If it was 10 mph? I might.
SB
What’s your cruise speed? I remember reading that you pinned the slats closed when you flew the plane north. How much difference did that make in speed, handling, etc? Normal cruise in my plane nets 100 mph with 35s. I’m not unhappy with that. If pinning the slats closed gained 2-3-4 mph? I wouldn’t pursue a cockpit slat control. If it was 10 mph? I might.
SB
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
SIMPLE!
a enclosed/sheathed cable like a bike brake cable..(someone on here mentioned another style like that, don't remember what it's called?)
just go from flap actuator to center of each slat hanger above pivot point...
have lock cables tight(locking slat) with flaps up, any other position loose...
lock cables would be connected at flap actuator in line and operate in same direction as flap cable...
would be relatively simple to install on a covered wing, long drill bit from slat hanger through lower lip of leading edge skin... bet in few hours you could have it done...
or so that my first 15 minutes of thoughts on it......
Bearhawk Builder
FRIEND
In the woods
Bowden Cable
B
Barnstormer
I ended up not pinning the slats for that trip. I do pin them when tied down to keep them from banging.
By myself I usually cruise at about 87mph which takes 18.5" and 2310.
If I'm with others I'll usually cruise at 95mph which takes 19.5" and 2350.
By myself I usually cruise at about 87mph which takes 18.5" and 2310.
If I'm with others I'll usually cruise at 95mph which takes 19.5" and 2350.
B
Barnstormer
Not a bad idea on the slat control. But I'd really like it to be free when not locked down. In my head is something like the slat track so as soon as its is unlocked with either that separate cable, or connected to the flap mechanism it's free to open and close. Any ideas on how to pull that off?
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
so you want BOTH flap controlled, AND an option to have lock disengage from cockpit????
doable! same lock system I described, just put an actuator (could be as simple as 3 pulleys with middle one sliding on cable to tighten or loosen cable) that loosens the lock cables controlled from cockpit.
did I understand your question right... if so I can sketch something up...
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cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
B
Barnstormer
Not sure you get what I’m asking, my fault. Going really simple (and maybe something like this might actually work) I’m now imagining a hole in the end/side of the slat. Attached to that hole is something like I have on the SQ2 that can spin around 360 degrees but has the hot air cable going through it. Only instead of the cable being held in place at this pivot point so the hot air door can be opened and closed, it slides free though pivot point. But at the end of the cable is a swedge so when it’s pulled back the swedge hits the pivot point and pulls the slats to the wing. Push the cable forward and the swedge goes far enough forward that the slat can open/close freely. Am I making any sense?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
yes... you just want a way to lock from cabin... NOT flap inter tie...
best to go to center hanger(s) like i describe above
easy
The internal lock would need to disengage completely to allow the slats to work freely. No way could you find a cable that wouldn't drag on the slat operation in the unlocked mode. You'd need to unlatch the cable. It sounds like a lot of work for little return. Installing external locks isn't so bad.
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
As a lead mech at the US Navy adversary squadron when they still flew A4 Skyhawks slats still give me nightmares. See they worked the same way these simple aerodynamic slats on cubs work, aerodynamic pressure determines their position, no actuator or cables involved. The problems arose because they were somewhat unpredictable during ACM (air combat maneuvering) and didn't always work in unison with the other wing, that could have disastrous results. When the Blue Angles flew A4s they bolted the slats shut for this reason. The pilots understandably wanted them working perfectly for dogfighting so we spent many hours rigging them by adjusting the t-bolts and adding/removing tapered washers etc. until they rolled in/out like butter. After one or two flights the slats would get written up by a pilot as "sticking' and we'd find the slats in a mess with bent t-bolts and binding all around. In defense of the slats and A4 they typically worked perfect for T/O and LNDG as they were designed for.
Anyway good conversation here on these devices. I'm guessing for the LE slats that stay open some in cruise have to do with the wings built in angle of incidence in relation with the tail/fuselage.
Slat/Flap airflow in the wind tunnel NACA Langley 1938.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_eMQvDoDWk&feature=youtu.be
Anyway good conversation here on these devices. I'm guessing for the LE slats that stay open some in cruise have to do with the wings built in angle of incidence in relation with the tail/fuselage.
Slat/Flap airflow in the wind tunnel NACA Langley 1938.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_eMQvDoDWk&feature=youtu.be
Thanks for joining the conversation. I know nothing about A4s or anything else about swept wing airplanes but the first thing that comes to mind about pressure actuated slats is that my Cub wing and operating speeds are vastly different from a swept wing A4. Is that a valid consideration when discussing how slats work? I haven't noticed any slat issues and with a couple of handfuls of friends with a lot more Cub slat experience than me, I haven't heard any comments from them, either. It is interesting to hear about the A4.
Your slats will work fine unless you start dogfighting Cessna's.
I'm more interested in why yours stay open some in cruise. I wonder if lowering the wing incidence 1 degree would see them shut and give a increase in cruise speed with no penalty at the low end for stall? I understand though not easily tested without hacking up a airframe.
To the OP, if you can fit it in the budget it sounds like you won't be disappointed with the results, they should also greatly add value should resale come up in the future (my rationalization for everything).
I'm more interested in why yours stay open some in cruise. I wonder if lowering the wing incidence 1 degree would see them shut and give a increase in cruise speed with no penalty at the low end for stall? I understand though not easily tested without hacking up a airframe.
To the OP, if you can fit it in the budget it sounds like you won't be disappointed with the results, they should also greatly add value should resale come up in the future (my rationalization for everything).
