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Thread: Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits

  1. #41
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Gents &
    Southern Aero

    I certainly enjoy a good discussion and thank you for sharing your knowledge. There are different types of LE devices. Some, like the Boeing 737, and to a limited extent the Helio extend forward and down. These effectively change the camber of the wing and will increase the lift at lower angles of attack. My understanding of the Backcountry slats (the only ones commercially available that I know of, and hence the ones I was referring to in my posts above) is that they are fixed slats that do not "open" until the AOA reaches a certain point. I do not know what that point is. But.....my belief.....and I may be wrong.....is that they would not be deployed at the takeoff or landing deck angle for "normal" float operations and perhaps "normal" gravel bar approaches. Obviously I have seen the videos of the very high AOA landings on youtube. Based on the OP's post and questions I asked why he wanted them.

    Doug Keller spent a great deal of time developing his flap because it lowers stall speed at a lower deck angle. He did not develop (though I know for a fact he looked long and hard at the concept) LE devices because he felt they would have limited benefit for normal backcountry flying applications. However, I will add that I have seen his LE slat experiments so I know he is still looking at it. LE devices that "extend and droop" add considerable complexity and weight and because of those design criteria have seen very limited application in GA. It sounds like the wing you are building may have a different type of LE slat than the Backcountry (Wayne Mackey) design.

    Hey....lets be clear here....I am NOT saying LE slats or slots, or Kreuger LE flaps, etc are bad!!! I use them several days a week. It all depends on your mission and what you want the airplane to do.

    But I asked, if they were necessary, based on his mission. Everything in aircraft design is a trade off, weight, complexity, cost, performance compromises, etc. LE devices have advantages and disadvantages. You just have to decide what works for you based on your knowledge of these compromises. Like all things LE devices are not free. Are you willing to pay the price? Does it fit your mission?

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Bill, huge respect to your knowledge and experience, but deploying those gigantic flaps is what give the WING the AoA necessary for the slats to do their work. Or, more accurately, the huge WING AoA available with very normal fuselage deck angles makes the slats necessary in order to extract the available performance from the wing.

    Wing and fuselage angles can be used interchangeably until you start deploying TE (and some LE) devices. Once you deploy those, the angles change with respect to each other.

    Wing AoA is the angle between the chord line and the relative wind. Once the big flaps lower, the chord makes a pretty significant adjustment.

    Or at least thatís what I learned from JJ McCue.
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  2. #42

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    Thx guys I really am enjoying all your input on this subject . At the moment I’m thinking both Leading Edge Slats and the Kellor Flaps will give me what I’m after . I like the idea of building my one of a kind Cub Experimental. I am a confident experienced pilot . I know I will be pushing the envelope in some of my operations. I am a big guy 6.3 tall and 220 lbs. my next question is which kit . Jarvron , Back Country or Dakota or are there other recommendations. Remembering I am seeking a kit or nearly all the kit . I do not live near many Cub guys and will be working towards a high performance light Cub kit with minimal creature comforts.

  3. #43
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My recollection of Helio slats is that they articulate. That is, they moved on tracks of some sort that changed their position forward as they deployed. Mackey slats are simple. And they don't make the big bang when they drop out like Helios' do.
    Stewart

    Yeah, the Helios are on radiused "tracks" or rollers. Aerodynamically/automatically driven with 2 on each slat. This radius motion (13 degrees) is what gives the wing the greater camber and wing area when extended. Lot of lift here as the Helio will fly at 27kts in a level attitude. As for the bang, unless a slat was sticking retracted for some reason, abrupt maneuvering or turbulence the slats shouldn't bang out. Rubber bumpers on retention arms missing? Dunno....

    As for the original question............ If building on a budget, ...... I'd go with squared off wing tips, move ailerons out to tip, extend the flaps. Flaps, the more the better, would make the best addition for the least investment. 160HP with fixed pitch prop (Borer?). +3 on the gear, tires to suit. And keep it light. ....... Got more money? More HP, CS prop, LE devices......... Slots will allow you to fly at high angles of attack but do you need to for what you plan to do? Slats will give to more wing area and create that "slot" but would not be practical without a good set of flaps (flatter approaches). The Mackey type slats work great and everyone loves them and they are pretty inexpensive way to get that slatted wing. Only drawback is they don't retract to original wing area to let you get a better cruise speed ...... . Performance enhancements cost money and add weight. As said earlier, everything is a trade off. I opted to throw more time an money at it and it remains to be seen if it will be worth it!
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  4. #44
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Someone said high AOA?

    https://youtu.be/Pz8bmdNFgVo


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone
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  5. #45
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowleveldevil View Post
    I am a big guy 6.3 tall and 220 lbs.
    backcountry rev 2 or 3 has highest head room... fuselage is taller

  6. #46

  7. #47

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  8. #48
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    backcountry rev 2 or 3 has highest head room... fuselage is taller
    click for bigger,

    size comparison, that's a rev2 of stewart's, then a normal super cub next to it... and an otter....

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #49

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    My Cub is sharing the hangar with bro-in-law’s 206 until spring. I look at them together every day and I can’t decide which one is bigger. A useful hauler with better than Cub performance. Very different from a Carbon Cub. It may not appeal to everyone but I sure like it. If the Carbon Cub is on one side of the spectrum and the Rev is on the other, the Javrons and other Cub clones fit somewhere in the middle. To me identifying what’s important within that spectrum is the key to deciding which one suits you.
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  10. #50
    flyrite's Avatar
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    On the slats, As has been said, They make the wing more effective at producing lift even at low angles of attack (assumeing due to energizing the boundary layer). My little throw away mount was docile before them. Few mods will make a noticeable difference in the seat of the plane. They will , Even if not flown at high AOA.
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  11. #51
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    I am not sure I would make the assumption that the LE slat produces an increase in lift at low AOA values. In fact, it is entirely possible that there is a small loss of performance due to a separation bubble behind the slat. Without wind tunnel data you are making assumptions. In addition, we do not know the AOA value that the slat opens. I certainly agree that it increases CLMax at the higher AOA values. Here is an interesting article that may give you something to think about.

    Effect of Leading Edge Slats at Low Reynolds Numbers

    Lance W. Traub *,† and Mashaan P. Kaula

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6xym9v4SrnYJ


    Also page 53 in the book Airfoil Selection, Barnaby Wainfan has some info on LE devices.

    Bill


    Very Blessed.

  12. #52

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    Did I mention my slats are partially open during cruise? What would the result be, based on what we know they do in the more traditional high AOA-slats open profile? The only time I see my slats fully closed is when the plane's parked.

  13. #53
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    No, you did not mention that. You would "probably" have an increase in boundary airflow energy and "probably" an increase in drag. It would be fun to put all this in a wind tunnel and get the real facts. We might all end up with LE slats.

    In all your panel stuff, I know it is high end, do you have an AOA indicator? It would be interesting to get some data correlating AOA and slat opening. i.e. where do they go full open. Even using just airspeed would be interesting. At what speed do they go full open?

    Anyone else with Backcountry LE slats have any info?

    Thanks

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  14. #54
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    stewart, Is the relationship of the slats to the wing adjustable on your plane? Perhaps if they were a bit higher they would completely close in cruise? Though it likely wouldn't make a noticeable difference.
    N1PA

  15. #55
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    In all your panel stuff, I know it is high end, do you have an AOA indicator? It would be interesting to get some data correlating AOA and slat opening. i.e. where do they go full open. Even using just airspeed would be interesting. At what speed do they go full open?
    Tie a piece of yarn to the center of a jury strut. That should give a close estimate of the angle of attack.
    N1PA

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    Lowleveldevel
    What is you definition of "light"? are you talking 900 lbs or 1200 lbs. The Backcountry SQ planes are not light. I think Javron will have the lightest fuselage least amount of space. If you want to travel in Canada I suspect you will want some big tanks also so add them to the mix. If you are going to be shoving a lot of camping/fishing gear and a passenger in the plane I would recommend L21 glass or metal headliner, and a belly pod. Bill did a fabric headliner, if I remember right he can add how it worked on his adventures. Go to a fly in and sit in everything you can find. Have someone take pictures, go home and look at pictures, pick the one with the biggest smile, buy that fuselage.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 02-02-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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  17. #57

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    Helio slats can slam out with a bang when in windy conditions. They are controlled by airspeed, come out at about 55mph, but in winds they can deploy with a bang to their stops. The are fully individual on each wing, two per wing and can come out one at a time if turning a bit as one wing is then faster than the other, etc.
    Helios also have what they call interceptors that are spoilers that pop out of the top of the wing when more aileron control is input. Essentially killing the lift on the wing on one side or the other to keep the wings level is slow flight. This makes the Helio pretty much stall proof (stabliator/they call elevator is limited to prevent too nose high for stall break) and Helios descend wings level in sink mode, no wing drop.
    Very safe features designed into them. I have landed them in wind with almost no forward movement, they do fly at about 27-8 mph with power.
    John
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  18. #58

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    Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    click for bigger,

    size comparison, that's a rev2 of stewart's, then a normal super cub next to it... and an otter....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is an honest angle shot. The cub is pushed to the far side of the 206's tail as I bang racks together. Is it beer thirty yet?


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
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  19. #59
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    For some fun tuft the slat leading edge and underside of the wing with yarn just behind the slats (or on wings without). Watch the airflow in an approach to stall. It might reverse and flow forward into the slot and up and around the leading edge. Makes Cessna stall horns work. Fine tune the slat position versus airflow?

    Gary

  20. #60
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Stewart

    I've looked at those type of slats since they came out. Seems as tho they all fly with a 1/2" or so open. I often thot you could have a retaining mechanism of some sort for "cruise" flight and release them for slower/landings. The low pressure on top of the wing is keeping them open, should help "slightly" for drag reduction if retained. Tho the slats on my wing will function as the Helio and wont have the opening issue I am still going to have a retaining or lock feature for them. Biggest reasons bird strike and for operating in moderate to sever turbulence .......... .a Helio or two had an issue with this with disastrous results.

    Curious to know what airfoil section the USA 35B ends up being after the slats are added........... I've never laid it out or plotted it out to see what it might be. Whatever it is, it works good!

    Beer thirty?? Yes sir, just opened up a Blue Moon..........
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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    I didnít mention 500 ft . I will eat my wing if I canít land in 500 ft in the aircraft Iím going to build. I want the short field land and take off stol machine.
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  22. #62

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    Okay, thread drift. Matanuska Brewing Company in Palmer, AK. Their "Magnitude 9.2" double IPA is hands down the best craft beer I've ever tasted. And I have a growler in the fridge.

    Cheers!
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  23. #63

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    Hi Stu have you flown a Carbon Cub and do you think the Rev 2 would perform better than a Carbon Cub

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    Thx Denny I’m liking the more room idea and keep it light . The back country looks great for bigger blokes.

  25. #65
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowleveldevil View Post
    Hi Stu have you flown a Carbon Cub and do you think the Rev 2 would perform better than a Carbon Cub
    Different animals, one is a Chevy El Camino and the other a tricked out F350

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  26. #66

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    Haven't flown one but came close to buying one. They're completely different airplanes. I made my choice based on what it can carry and how it performs when loaded. I'm still hoping the Wildcat dethrones my 180 but wifey says the 180 stays. That doesn't break my heart. Honestly? My Rev fixed what kept me from loving Supercubs. Big and easy to load. And the performance is great. The Carbon Cub is all about performance but I wouldn't trust it as a workhorse. Different planes for different priorities. I have no doubt the Carbon Cub is a fun plane. It just doesn't fit my needs.
    Last edited by stewartb; 02-02-2019 at 09:49 PM.
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  27. #67
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    I have over 900 hours and thousands of t/o's and landings in my SQ-2, almost all off-airport from Texas to Alaska.


    It has a 205+hp O-375, P-Mags, Vetterman exhaust, with a Whirl Wind Aviation STOL 200A Constant Speed propellor. I've also flown about 50 hours with the Whirl Wind Aviation STOL 284 Constant Speed propellor.


    It has Doug Keller's double-slotted fowler flaps (62 degrees fully drooped), early Mackey/Backcountry Slats with brackets permanently affixed to the wings under the fabric, and Roll Spoilers in front of the ailerons (similar to the Helio's Interrupters). The wings are square tipped and wingspan is just shy of 40 feet. Tail is oversized. VGs on the wings, and tail (both horizontals and vertical).


    On the front 6" extended gear with TK-1 Racing shocks (next time she flies will be with TK-1 Racing 6" extended/3" forward gear and TK1 Racing shocks). 35's on Beringer Wheels and brakes. On the rear is a dual shock (one spring one gas) T3 suspension with a Matco tail wheel assembly and tire.


    Slats: 2 per wing, operate automatically and independently. Extremely light so any concern about weight is mis-placed. Slats open any time the wing is producing lift- including when sitting on the ground with the wind blowing. How far they open depends on how much is asked of the plane. Slats make the SQ-2 essentially unstallable so unspinable- a huge safety feature for serious off-airport flying. They do create drag, 5-10mph worth depending on other things on the plane. Any time they are open they are doing two other things; helping keep the air attached to the wing, and creating lift themselves (which will be at a different angle than the wings lift).


    Keller flaps: helps keep the deck angle horizontal at slower speeds. First three notches create extra lift. At the fourth notch huge amounts of drag (more than lift) so a quicker descent rate and shorter stop.


    Roll Spoilers: help with roll control at super slow speeds when the ailerons become less affective.


    OP, big wings and slats equals lots of lift at very low speeds. Mine flys at 25mph. Very cool EXCEPT when the wind is blowing 25mph (or more), you've landed and now you need to tie down. Consider this if you live in an area where the wind is always howling. Takeoff distance is of course very impressive, as is landing distance.


    Also, when the underside of these big wings is exposed to gusty air some sporty things can occur, including getting flipped over. Even banking in turns with wind howling down side canyons can flip you over. Fortunately with slats you can keep the wings level and just rudder steer (no danger of a stall/spin).


    Before considering a constant speed on a 180 horse I'd suggest you talk with Craig Catto first, my guess is he'll suggest a fixed pitch (which could also be a ground adjustable).


    If this is the type of cub you are interested in building don't listen to advice from anyone who hasn't flown this type of plane extensively because they'll have opinions that are based on either what they've read or on hearsay, which more than likely won't be accurate.


    And if this is type of cub you are interested in building, but you don't want to go with a high-compression fire breathing motor, consider going with an IO360 so you get 200hp instead of 180hp.


    If you really aren't interested in extreme off-airport flying than this type of plane probably isn't for you- and that is okay- the number of pilots that actually do the type of flying that requires a plane like this is very small. A well thought out and built experimental stock-type cub in the hands of a very capable pilot will go 95% of places a cub like the SQ-2 will go.

    It is of course the other 5% that makes me love my SQ-2, even if everybody runs away from me. The fun meter is pegged, and as long as I breathe it will never be for sale at any price.
    Phil Whittemore
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  28. #68
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Excellent, well written post, Phil. Thank you.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  29. #69
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Aero View Post
    Stewart Seems as tho they all fly with a 1/2" or so open. I often thot you could have a retaining mechanism of some sort for "cruise" flight and release them for slower/landings. ..
    I made him manual lock disc's, so he can install to lock them closed... if he needs to(high winds)...

    probably need to add some Nord-loc lock washers to them so they can't vibrate loose in flight....

    would be an interesting comparison test/flight...

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    I'm pleased to have a hangar. This plane wants to fly and tied outside in 35mph winds isn't something I enjoyed. Outdoor parking was a big concern and that issue is resolved, thanks to my wife.

    I find it entertaining how guys with no slat experience advocate "tests" while guys with slat experience are content with pireps.

  31. #71
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Barnstormer

    Can you raise your spoilers on both sides at same time or only for roll control? Raising them both could help with after landings in high winds.........
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    ..I find it entertaining how guys with no slat experience advocate "tests" while guys with slat experience are content with pireps.
    Those who are content with pireps are satisfied with the WOW factor, which is understandable.
    The others who are advocating tests have inquisitive minds, always looking for the reasons and methods of squeezing the last ounce of performance out of the machine.

    Some who you may think have no slat experience, may have no slat experience in Cubs but in reality have thousands of hours in other types of planes which do have slats. This may actually give them a good understanding of slats with them wondering just how much and whether or not and exactly how, they should be installed and used on the Cub.

    It can be a very entertaining discussion. There are a large number of experienced airline and military pilots here who have many thousands of hours operating slats. Some of them have inquisitive minds, some are just content to fly a Cub.
    N1PA
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    Did you tape yarn on those airliners and military jets? I’m guessing you accepted information provided by others. Were you skeptical about that, too? Last I knew a slat kit was $4K and available to anyone who wants to buy one. If testing is what drives you? Test. I’m in it for fun, and the fun part is undeniable.

  34. #74
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    They are only for roll control.

    On the subject of controlling the slats, a few years ago I stopped in at Backcountry and they were working on a wing (on a plane) that had a separate slat handle (looked just like a flap handle). Don't know where they ended up with that project. I've always liked the idea of tying in the slats to the flaps. Pull on notch of flaps and the slats are released. Raise the flaps fully and that slats lock back down on the wing. Seems like it would be a lot lighter than a separate handle and mechanism. I can see it operate in my mind, just wish I had the know how to make it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Aero View Post
    Barnstormer

    Can you raise your spoilers on both sides at same time or only for roll control? Raising them both could help with after landings in high winds.........
    Phil Whittemore
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    Phil,

    What’s your cruise speed? I remember reading that you pinned the slats closed when you flew the plane north. How much difference did that make in speed, handling, etc? Normal cruise in my plane nets 100 mph with 35s. I’m not unhappy with that. If pinning the slats closed gained 2-3-4 mph? I wouldn’t pursue a cockpit slat control. If it was 10 mph? I might.

    SB
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  36. #76
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    ..I've always liked the idea of tying in the slats to the flaps. Pull on notch of flaps and the slats are released. Raise the flaps fully and that slats lock back down on the wing....just wish I had the know how to make it happen.
    SIMPLE!
    a enclosed/sheathed cable like a bike brake cable..(someone on here mentioned another style like that, don't remember what it's called?)

    just go from flap actuator to center of each slat hanger above pivot point...
    have lock cables tight(locking slat) with flaps up, any other position loose...

    lock cables would be connected at flap actuator in line and operate in same direction as flap cable...

    would be relatively simple to install on a covered wing, long drill bit from slat hanger through lower lip of leading edge skin... bet in few hours you could have it done...

    or so that my first 15 minutes of thoughts on it......

  37. #77
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  38. #78
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    I ended up not pinning the slats for that trip. I do pin them when tied down to keep them from banging.

    By myself I usually cruise at about 87mph which takes 18.5" and 2310.

    If I'm with others I'll usually cruise at 95mph which takes 19.5" and 2350.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Phil,

    Whatís your cruise speed? I remember reading that you pinned the slats closed when you flew the plane north. How much difference did that make in speed, handling, etc? Normal cruise in my plane nets 100 mph with 35s. Iím not unhappy with that. If pinning the slats closed gained 2-3-4 mph? I wouldnít pursue a cockpit slat control. If it was 10 mph? I might.

    SB
    Phil Whittemore

  39. #79
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Not a bad idea on the slat control. But I'd really like it to be free when not locked down. In my head is something like the slat track so as soon as its is unlocked with either that separate cable, or connected to the flap mechanism it's free to open and close. Any ideas on how to pull that off?
    Phil Whittemore

  40. #80
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Not a bad idea on the slat control. But I'd really like it to be free when not locked down. In my head is something like the slat track so as soon as its is unlocked with either that separate cable, or connected to the flap mechanism it's free to open and close. Any ideas on how to pull that off?
    so you want BOTH flap controlled, AND an option to have lock disengage from cockpit????

    doable! same lock system I described, just put an actuator (could be as simple as 3 pulleys with middle one sliding on cable to tighten or loosen cable) that loosens the lock cables controlled from cockpit.

    did I understand your question right... if so I can sketch something up...

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