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Thread: Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits

  1. #81
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Not a bad idea on the slat control. But I'd really like it to be free when not locked down. In my head is something like the slat track so as soon as its is unlocked with either that separate cable, or connected to the flap mechanism it's free to open and close. Any ideas on how to pull that off?
    Go look at a Tiger Moth, 1930s technology

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  2. #82
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    so you want BOTH flap controlled, AND an option to have lock disengage from cockpit????

    doable! same lock system I described, just put an actuator (could be as simple as 3 pulleys with middle one sliding on cable to tighten or loosen cable) that loosens the lock cables controlled from cockpit.

    did I understand your question right... if so I can sketch something up...
    Not sure you get what Iím asking, my fault. Going really simple (and maybe something like this might actually work) Iím now imagining a hole in the end/side of the slat. Attached to that hole is something like I have on the SQ2 that can spin around 360 degrees but has the hot air cable going through it. Only instead of the cable being held in place at this pivot point so the hot air door can be opened and closed, it slides free though pivot point. But at the end of the cable is a swedge so when itís pulled back the swedge hits the pivot point and pulls the slats to the wing. Push the cable forward and the swedge goes far enough forward that the slat can open/close freely. Am I making any sense?



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    Phil Whittemore

  3. #83
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Am I making any sense?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    yes... you just want a way to lock from cabin... NOT flap inter tie...

    best to go to center hanger(s) like i describe above

    easy

  4. #84

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    The internal lock would need to disengage completely to allow the slats to work freely. No way could you find a cable that wouldn't drag on the slat operation in the unlocked mode. You'd need to unlatch the cable. It sounds like a lot of work for little return. Installing external locks isn't so bad.

  5. #85
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The internal lock would need to disengage completely to allow the slats to work freely. No way could you find a cable that wouldn't drag on the slat operation in the unlocked mode. You'd need to unlatch the cable. It sounds like a lot of work for little return. Installing external locks isn't so bad.
    He described the solution in #83


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    As a lead mech at the US Navy adversary squadron when they still flew A4 Skyhawks slats still give me nightmares. See they worked the same way these simple aerodynamic slats on cubs work, aerodynamic pressure determines their position, no actuator or cables involved. The problems arose because they were somewhat unpredictable during ACM (air combat maneuvering) and didn't always work in unison with the other wing, that could have disastrous results. When the Blue Angles flew A4s they bolted the slats shut for this reason. The pilots understandably wanted them working perfectly for dogfighting so we spent many hours rigging them by adjusting the t-bolts and adding/removing tapered washers etc. until they rolled in/out like butter. After one or two flights the slats would get written up by a pilot as "sticking' and we'd find the slats in a mess with bent t-bolts and binding all around. In defense of the slats and A4 they typically worked perfect for T/O and LNDG as they were designed for.

    Anyway good conversation here on these devices. I'm guessing for the LE slats that stay open some in cruise have to do with the wings built in angle of incidence in relation with the tail/fuselage.

    Slat/Flap airflow in the wind tunnel NACA Langley 1938.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_eMQvDoDWk&feature=youtu.be
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  7. #87

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    Thanks for joining the conversation. I know nothing about A4s or anything else about swept wing airplanes but the first thing that comes to mind about pressure actuated slats is that my Cub wing and operating speeds are vastly different from a swept wing A4. Is that a valid consideration when discussing how slats work? I haven't noticed any slat issues and with a couple of handfuls of friends with a lot more Cub slat experience than me, I haven't heard any comments from them, either. It is interesting to hear about the A4.
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  8. #88

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    Your slats will work fine unless you start dogfighting Cessna's.
    I'm more interested in why yours stay open some in cruise. I wonder if lowering the wing incidence 1 degree would see them shut and give a increase in cruise speed with no penalty at the low end for stall? I understand though not easily tested without hacking up a airframe.

    To the OP, if you can fit it in the budget it sounds like you won't be disappointed with the results, they should also greatly add value should resale come up in the future (my rationalization for everything).
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  9. #89
    aktango58's Avatar
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    A video says a thousand words to illiterates like me! Thank you for that Cappt!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  10. #90
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    Have referred to that vid many times when deciding on mounting mine as well as flaps. Amazing tech from yesteryear!
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  11. #91

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    Old school. Slats were first invented in 1918 but became a thing in 1919.

    Handley Page developed the Handley Page Slat (or slot, see slats), an auxiliary airfoil mounted ahead and over the main wing, which formed a narrow opening running along the leading edge of the wing to improve airflow at high angles of attack.[4] The leading edge slat was simultaneously designed by the German aerodynamicist Gustav Lachmann, who was later employed by Handley Page. The design was so successful that licensing fees to other companies was their main source of income in the early 1920s.
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    Last edited by stewartb; 02-04-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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  12. #92

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    A slat deployed in cruise VS a clean wing.
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  13. #93
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cappt View Post
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    A slat deployed in cruise VS a clean wing.
    Didnt install mine for low AOA’s obviously , and discovered only afterwards that they are much more effective at helping the wing than VG’s at producing lift at ALL AOA’s. Was a Unintented benefit that was gained.
    I’m sure at the expense of some cruise. Not a factor for me . If I’m going somewhere I chose a different mount.
    Last edited by flyrite; 02-04-2019 at 01:50 PM.
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  14. #94
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I wonder if adding a short metal trim strip to the bottom of the slat would control the AOA when they deploy? Some sort of right angle piece of metal like a Gurney Flap perpendicular to and sticking down into the airflow that would add more resistance so they fully retract in cruise flight. May just be a solution looking for a problem.

    Gary

  15. #95
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    If you add a good flap to the mix the slats come out a lot sooner than a clean wing..... less AOA. Here's a good demo of the Helio in a couple of you tube videos. One is a old factory video that sux, hard to see. The other is at an airshow with pretty good video. The Helio CAN fly at those high AOAs but doesn't need to........ save that for the flair. .........FWIW


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKCRuNYDOh4


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRU5BLMnOCA
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  16. #96

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    Thx Phil I would be very interested in your machine details and rough cost in home building. Performance and suggestions all appreciated. I will be in the US in April to check some stuff out.

  17. #97
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    After watching that Langley video would it be that hard to add a slot/slots just behind the leading edge and in front of spar to a stock flap? Looks like it would be beneficial?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  18. #98
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    After watching that Langley video would it be that hard to add a slot/slots just behind the leading edge and in front of spar to a stock flap? Looks like it would be beneficial?

    Glenn
    isn't that what the backcountry rev 3 wing has? stewart might have a link to the video/picture of it

  19. #99
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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  20. #100
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    I think itís really important to point this out because itís a common misconception. I do not intend to come across as priggish.


    Airplanes have pitch attitudes. Wings have angles of attack.

    AoA is the angle between the chord line and the relative wind.

    When you change the configuration of the wing (by deploying flaps, and certain leading edge devices (no slats)), you automatically change its AoA by changing its chord line.

    It seems like petty semantics but here the words have meanings: the slats on the Helio pop out sooner when the flaps are deployed because at a given fuselage pitch attitude, the wing is flying at a higher AoA with the flaps out than with them retracted.


    https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/geom.html

  21. #101
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    site seems like spam... wants to give you a download of flash no mater which button you choose... malware I bet!!

  22. #102
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    site seems like spam... wants to give you a download of flash no mater which button you choose... malware I bet!!
    Does nothing with my I-Mac but show pics and play videos. Like this:

    https://scontent-dfw5-1.cdninstagram...ninstagram.com

    Gary

  23. #103

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    The new Shock cub has a double slot flap also. My question is how will that opening on the bottom of the wing effect top speed.
    DENNY

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    The new Shock cub has a double slot flap also. My question is how will that opening on the bottom of the wing effect top speed.
    DENNY
    They should close up when the flaps are retracted. Do the ones on the shock cubs not do that?

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    After watching that Langley video would it be that hard to add a slot/slots just behind the leading edge and in front of spar to a stock flap? Looks like it would be beneficial?

    Glenn
    Isn't that what the Dakota Cub wing is?

    Designed after the military slotted cub wing. Pretty incredible wing- just adds weight.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  26. #106

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    You have to look at the flap to see what I mean. Take a standard flap and add a fixed slot on top of it. Now take that flap and stick on the wing. The top flap seal covers both slots but the bottom now has two open slots instead of one like you have in a normal flap. Looks like it should just bolt on with no extra moving parts.
    DENNY

  27. #107

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    Where are slatted wing aircraft mounting their taxi/landing lights?

  28. #108
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vj88 View Post
    Where are slatted wing aircraft mounting their taxi/landing lights?
    Usually wing tips and nose
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.

  29. #109
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    I've seen it both inboard and outboard of the slot. (or one put on the cabane)

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  30. #110
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubus Maximus View Post
    I've seen it both inboard and outboard of the slot. (or one put on the cabane)

    I wouldnít want inboard like that.


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  31. #111
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Belly or gear


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    Would an inboard light like the pic above not be taking quit a bit of strength out of the wing cutting into the D cell leading edge? I always thought the leading edge light should not be more then 2-3 rib bays in from the tip, not to mention the glare.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by cub12 View Post
    Would an inboard light like the pic above not be taking quit a bit of strength out of the wing cutting into the D cell leading edge? I always thought the leading edge light should not be more then 2-3 rib bays in from the tip, not to mention the glare.
    The spar is the main structure there. The rest pretty much holds the correct shape. Lights that close inboard are going to create lots of glare issues.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  34. #114
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    The spar is the main structure there. The rest pretty much holds the correct shape. Lights that close inboard are going to create lots of glare issues.

    Web
    and light up the prop, ruining your night vision....

  35. #115
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    The farther the light is laterally or vertically from your line of sight, the better you can see......... less light reflected directly back to you.

    Confucius say...............
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  36. #116
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    and light up the prop, ruining your night vision....
    Right. Did that once and never again. Can't see a thing past the prop.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  37. #117

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    Thx Phil that is exactly what I wanted to hear

  38. #118
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    Here is the airplane exactly configured like the OP and all these discussions are about. Airframes Alaska widebody fuselage, Dakota Cub square tip wings with fixed slots, Lycon 220hp O-360, MT9 constant speed prop. 2200gw, 1270ew. Cruise 110mph, stall 30ish. This airplane performs really well. With a light breeze gets off in a couple of fuselage lengths and lands in 100' without too much drama. I would not use the slotted wing as like bill says it really doesn't start working until you are at a high angle of attack. It is almost stall/spin proof as you can do whatever you want with the stick and pedals and it just wallows around and never breaks. But if it were mine I would go with the Javron wing and Keller flaps. The customer wanted to keep it certified so I had to go with the Airframes Alaska fuselage. I will never use one again. It was not even close to the quality of a Javeron.I know I could do a Javeron in the 1100-1150ew range. So yes this combination works pretty good but I think there are better ways to go.
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  39. #119
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsdriver View Post
    So yes this combination works pretty good but I think there are better ways to go.
    I'm curious about details regarding the slotted wing. It performs really well but you wouldn't use them? Is it because of drag? I know folks talk about them only working at high angles of attack, but that's been balanced by folks who use them day to day.

    I have trouble keeping up with the latest, but do you think a Javron wing with Keller flaps is a better choice than a Mackey slatted wing with Keller flaps? Just trying to sort out things.

    Also, for anyone to answer--Can one still get the Mackey slats as a kit? Other than this thread, it seems like discussion on them dropped off around 2013.

    Thanks,
    Vic

  40. #120
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    They are heavy, roll rate is less than a Javron square tip wing and angle of attack. The customer insisted that i use the Dakota Cub wings so that's what I used. The customer is always right.
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