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Thread: Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits

  1. #1

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    Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits

    Hi Guys I am really interested in building a cub style aircraft . Any help much appreciated and suggestions. I have previously build a scratch kit RV 7. I have considerable bush flying experience and float time. I like the ideas of

    180 hp
    Constant speed prop
    Slotted Wings
    Big Flaps
    31 inch wheels
    Extra Baggage

    anyone with ideas or suggestions I would really appreciate your input. Javron, Alaska , Dakota or a mix of a few.

  2. #2
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    What's your budget and what do you want to do with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowleveldevil View Post
    Hi Guys I am really interested in building a cub style aircraft . Any help much appreciated and suggestions. I have previously build a scratch kit RV 7. I have considerable bush flying experience and float time. I like the ideas of

    180 hp
    Constant speed prop
    Slotted Wings
    Big Flaps
    31 inch wheels
    Extra Baggage

    anyone with ideas or suggestions I would really appreciate your input. Javron, Alaska , Dakota or a mix of a few.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    I am not wealthy. So sensible pricing is important, I cannot afford a Carbon Cub . Like the idea of Touring Canada and US fishing and Camping.

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    The 160 hp Cubs fly better. I would look in to the new Fowler flaps along with those slots. I bet that will be the trick setup.
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    Thanks Bob appreciate the heads up. do you know any Experimental Kit suppliers that do an airframe and wing kit with these Flaps and Slots.

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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Why do you want the slotted wing? Slots and slats typically do not come into their own until very high angle of attack. An AOA that you will not often use when landing on floats and not often on wheels as at that AOA the over the nose vis is pretty compromised. If you expect to do a lot of animal spotting or fish spotting then it certainly offers a safety factor. The Backcountry Cub offers the slats. There is a speed penalty with them. Dakota Cub is the only place I know of where you can get the slotted wing. No speed penalty (or very little) with the slotted wing. The Dakota slotted wing is about 20 pounds (or maybe even more) heavier per panel than a stock wing.
    If you are really into the slotted wing your only option is either a Dakota Kit, or perhaps buy just the wings from Dakota, and buy everything else from Javron.
    The Keller Flap system gives lower stall speeds (read that slower final approach and landing speeds) and also reduces the deck angle so you retain the over the nose vis when on final to the gravel bar. Slots and slats will not be helpful when on floats at least for TO and landing phases.

    This is just my uninformed opinion. Take it with a salt lick. I'm quite sure someone will jump in and tell me I am wrong on every count.

    Bill
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Your opinion on this is hardly uninformed!
    That's why I asked about the use. Unless you want to land on 500 ft gravel bars, you don't need the leading edge devices. The new fowler flaps would be my choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Why do you want the slotted wing? Slots and slats typically do not come into their own until very high angle of attack. An AOA that you will not often use when landing on floats and not often on wheels as at that AOA the over the nose vis is pretty compromised. If you expect to do a lot of animal spotting or fish spotting then it certainly offers a safety factor. The Backcountry Cub offers the slats. There is a speed penalty with them. Dakota Cub is the only place I know of where you can get the slotted wing. No speed penalty (or very little) with the slotted wing. The Dakota slotted wing is about 20 pounds (or maybe even more) heavier per panel than a stock wing.
    If you are really into the slotted wing your only option is either a Dakota Kit, or perhaps buy just the wings from Dakota, and buy everything else from Javron.
    The Keller Flap system gives lower stall speeds (read that slower final approach and landing speeds) and also reduces the deck angle so you retain the over the nose vis when on final to the gravel bar. Slots and slats will not be helpful when on floats at least for TO and landing phases.

    This is just my uninformed opinion. Take it with a salt lick. I'm quite sure someone will jump in and tell me I am wrong on every count.

    Bill
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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    I also agree with Bill 100%, I have built a couple exp cubs and you definitely can put one together for under 100k but you have to shop smart,IMO Most people don't or can't fly a stock cub to it's abilities so adding all that trick stuff is just for show. However if you think you will use it or just really want it then go for it but like Bill said the slats won't help you on floats, big flaps YES.I would start by seeing what's out there for unfinished kits or kit's that others have given up on or don't have the time for. Back when i started you could get a really nice kit for 37k, looks like their almost double that now.
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    thx

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    Thx mate reall appreciate and understand your answers. If I could find a project that would be my choice. although not planning on 500 ft gravel banks , I am going to do some fishing and exploring and landing in shitty spots. Great advice do you think a 180 HP big wheeled Cub would have similar performance to a Carbon Cub if weight kept down. Does a spring undercarriage make a Cubs cruise speed better compared to traditional bungee or extended legs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Why do you want the slotted wing? Slots and slats typically do not come into their own until very high angle of attack. An AOA that you will not often use when landing on floats and not often on wheels as at that AOA the over the nose vis is pretty compromised.
    Bill, with the use of flaps, the wing can see much higher angle of attack than the fuselage deck angle.

    With very effective flaps (like the Kellers), you could really take advantage of those slots/slats at useable fuselage deck angles.
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Great advice do you think a 180 HP big wheeled Cub would have similar performance to a Carbon Cub if weight kept down. YES
    Does a spring undercarriage make a Cubs cruise speed better compared to traditional bungee or extended legs.YES
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    hottshot's Avatar
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    Save the weight of the slats/slots and use the Flaps.

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    Funny - I would have guessed the Dakota slots would make a dramatic difference. The Stinson had little slots, and quicker ailerons than my Decathlon!

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    If you want a 180 hp with Constant speed prop try to find an engine with the governor mounting on the front of the crankcase. If you have the most common installation, the governor is mounted on the accessory case. This requires cutting a hole in the firewall for the governor to fit. Then in addition to the controls being in an awkward location you need to be certain that the tubing in the forward section of the fuselage does not interfere. My prebuilt E-AB fuselage came with the tubing in the way, which prevented me from using the constant speed prop.
    N1PA
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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    The slats, or the slots, will make a dramatic difference, but only at high angle of attack. The objective of slots, slats, and vortex generators, is to increase the energy of the airflow so that it stays attached to the top of the wing longer thus delaying the stall to a higher angle of attack. Above about 21 or 22° there is no air attached any further aft than about the main wing spar.
    You ask if these other aircraft would have performance similar to the carbon cub, and it will if you keep it light. But you must keep it light in order to get that performance. The reason the carbon cub performs as well as it does is because it is light with high horsepower.
    A Javron Kit runs about 55K. 25K for an engine and 20K for avionics and you are at about 100K. Figure another 25K for miscellaneous and that’s going to be fairly close to the cost to build a very high-end, very high performance Cub. You can certainly spend more building an airplane, and you might be able to bring it in for less but it’s going to be fairly challenging to do so.
    The slats, and slots, are great tools if you have a need for that “edge of the envelope” performance. If you don’t think you’re going to need that on a regular basis, you are adding weight and complexity for a very minimal return on your investment. Again, just my opinion.


    Hope this helps


    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 01-31-2019 at 08:48 AM.
    Very Blessed.
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    The comments about slats and flaps provided by guys with little or no experience with slats or flaps are comical. If you think you want slats or slots and want to explore them? You should talk to guys who have them. The combination of slats and split flaps is seriously fun. Whether that’s reason to add them is personal choice.

    Where did the 500’ sand bar thing come from? If you want a 500’ utility airplane with respectable cruise maybe look to a Husky or a 180. Good STOL performance, constant speed prop, fast. And if you want to take some stuff? Advantage 180. The slats-split flaps Cub will shine when you want to operate on a 100’ sand bar.
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    I faced those same questions nine years ago, I wanted to start backcountry flying and get away from IFR etc. eventually I decided to build experimental and since I had little experience with backcountry flying my question was what will be most forgiving. I chose a SQ2 , Aerospor Power 360 with 200 + hp, Whirlwind constant speed prop. I believe the slats add a lot of safety.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Where did the 500’ sand bar thing come from? If you want a 500’ utility airplane with respectable cruise maybe look to a Husky or a 180. Good STOL performance, constant speed prop, fast. And if you want to take some stuff? Advantage 180. The slats-split flaps Cub will shine when you want to operate on a 100’ sand bar.

    Most guys with a cub can land in 500' without any issues... if not, well, you need practice.

    500' in a husky takes a guy that that can hold + or - 5 on final, no big deal.

    500' in a 180 you better have your $hit together, know the plane inside and out, and be on top of your game that day.

    I have done 500' with all three, and I can tell you things had to be perfect with the 180, (I flew that plane over 1000 hours and knew it well).

    Every modification, option, engine and item you put in or on your plane has a benefit, and a penalty. Weight, cost, complexity, usability... something changes. Before I started into a $100,000+ project that would take two years of my life or more, I would be seeking out guys like Stewart and Bill to go flying with them and see what/how they created their dream machines and learn what I wanted or did not want.

    Talk and posting over the web is cheap, but you should fly some of the modifications before you commit; 90% of your flying will be doing what? That is what to build for.

    My opinion and experience, worth what you paid for it!!!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    180hp Cub vs Carbon Cub performance? Performance is largely a product of wing loading and power loading.

    Carbon Cub assuming 1000#- WL 5.82# per sq ft. PL 5.5# per HP

    180hp legacy Cub assuming 1250#- WL 7.27# per sq ft. PL- 6.95# per HP

    Performance variations are predicted in the math. Extend the wings, add slats, improve and lengthen the flaps, etc., and you can close the weight related performance gap. Adding power fixes the power loading.

  21. #21
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowleveldevil View Post
    Hi Guys I am really interested in building a cub style aircraft . Any help much appreciated and suggestions. I have previously build a scratch kit RV 7. I have considerable bush flying experience and float time. I like the ideas of

    180 hp
    Constant speed prop
    Slotted Wings
    Big Flaps
    31 inch wheels
    Extra Baggage

    anyone with ideas or suggestions I would really appreciate your input. Javron, Alaska , Dakota or a mix of a few.
    I'm sure I'm over simplifying things here, but why the 180 hp criteria? Are you just looking for raw horse power? How much have you flown a 180 hp Cub? Have you compared it to a 150/160 hp Cub? Not counting some of the more exotic engines, a 180 hp Lycoming (O-360) is around 35 lbs heavier than a 150 hp (O-320). So right away you need to plug the weight of the 180 into a weight and balance for your prospective airplane to see what it works out too be. Part of the higher horse power will be negated by the extra weight and possibly negative changes to your W/B. If you go full exotic on the engine to get less weight and more horse power, be sure to take into consideration that some of these engines can have a fairly short life span.

    I've been blessed to have worked with some absolutely phenomenal pilots and I'll tell you that a good pilot with a lighter, lower power (within reason) aircraft will out fly a so-so pilot with a heavier, high power aircraft. That's a big part of the draw with the 160 horse power Lycoming conversion; for almost no weight change, you get an extra 10 hp.

    As for the rest of your list, forget the 31" tires until you get a bunch of time on the aircraft. Heavy, expensive, and lots of drag, all of which you don't need while you're learning. If you want the constant speed prop, get an engine with the prop governor pad at the front of the crank case, as stated above. Then, after you get some time on this aircraft go ahead and install it. If you end up with a prop strike while learning, a fixed pitch prop is cheaper to replace. As for slots/slats, talk to pilots that have flow Cubs with AND without those mods before you make a decision.

    Have fun.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post

    500' in a 180 you better have your $hit together,
    I still remember the words my stepfather Windy said to our pilot Tom when he was gonna let someone else land at the dog salmon camp in 185. Was a 500 ft strip with downhill to the river on one end. He said if you don’t touch down in first 20 feet go around..... well... he did need to go around, he was stopped about 60’ from begging of strip.. one landing gear was back in bank at edge of the strip, his wheels were about a foot low to cutbank of strip. Other was folded back. Windy would hall 3 passengers and gear in and out of there. Many a takeoff was done using the river



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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    I still remember the words my stepfather Windy said to our pilot Tom when he was gonna let someone else land at the dog salmon camp in 185. Was a 500 ft strip with downhill to the river on one end. He said if you don’t touch down in first 20 feet go around..... well... he did need to go around, he was stopped about 60’ from begging of strip.. one landing gear was back in bank at edge of the strip, his wheels were about a foot low to cutbank of strip. Other was folded back. Windy would hall 3 passengers and gear in and out of there. Many a takeoff was done using the river



    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    In my world, Windy would not be considered an "average" pilot!


    180 vs 160:

    FLOATS!! If I were to build a plane knowing it would have floats under it for a good portion of the season, I would really be serious about the big engine. My first cub was a 180 HP plane, and it was great with floats. Load it up and I could still come out about as short as the work plane empty with it's 150 hp and little floats. Skis is another raw power application.

    The second cub was a 150 and I flew it on floats all summer heavy. Took a bunch more planning, and did more step turns getting out of places, once out of the water she would not climb as good, so had to watch trees at the end. For four years I flew Fish and Game counting fish with that bird, and she did all she really had to do, and more.

    Mission... all about the mission.

    The penalty of the big engine was I could not hold brakes on landing near as well, so took more space to get her in and stopped on wheels. Lots of weight out there- props are also heavier and more expensive on the big engine.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    Thx mate maybe a superior IO 360 I think it has a governor on the front from memory.
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    Thx mate appreciate your input . I have nearly 18000 hrs tailwheel and bush stuff . Great input thx .
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    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Why do you want the slotted wing? Slots and slats typically do not come into their own until very high angle of attack. An AOA that you will not often use when landing on floats and not often on wheels as at that AOA the over the nose vis is pretty compromised. If you expect to do a lot of animal spotting or fish spotting then it certainly offers a safety factor. The Backcountry Cub offers the slats. There is a speed penalty with them. Dakota Cub is the only place I know of where you can get the slotted wing. No speed penalty (or very little) with the slotted wing. The Dakota slotted wing is about 20 pounds (or maybe even more) heavier per panel than a stock wing.
    If you are really into the slotted wing your only option is either a Dakota Kit, or perhaps buy just the wings from Dakota, and buy everything else from Javron.
    The Keller Flap system gives lower stall speeds (read that slower final approach and landing speeds) and also reduces the deck angle so you retain the over the nose vis when on final to the gravel bar. Slots and slats will not be helpful when on floats at least for TO and landing phases.

    This is just my uninformed opinion. Take it with a salt lick. I'm quite sure someone will jump in and tell me I am wrong on every count.

    Bill
    Bill

    Not wanting to pick a fight!! But please allow me to disagree a little. Slats and slots are quite different tho similar in function. Slots were originally......... still are ..... designed and used to keep air attached at high angles of attack to keep ailerons effective, not the whole wing. ......... stabilizers in some cases. Piper applied the slots to the L14 in the 40s but was mostly for the ability to climb at a high angle of attack to get away from ground fire. The L14 already "short field" capability inherently with the USA35B airfoil. Slats on the other hand allow for a much less deck angle due to the increased camber and increased effective wing area created with the extended slat. Now add some good flaps and you have a lot of lift at a very shallow angle. Look at a Helio with every thing hanging out at how flat it flies. I should have my wing done in the next few months. It will be an extended slightly short wing with with auto slats and flaps on a stretched Pacer. (Batpacer talked me into keeping them short on the stretch....) I also have a long wing version ....17' spar ... going on a PA12 clone.
    Last edited by Southern Aero; 02-01-2019 at 01:18 AM.
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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    If you stick with a basic cub wing and fuselage it would be pretty easy to add or remove slats and different flaps. Same thing with the gear. Being able to find some local get me home parts is easier with a stock cub base. If you are going to go into rough stuff I would avoid spring gear. How about belly pod? I would consider slats you can take them off if you do not like them. A square wing with big flaps is going to be a big performance gain. A basic cub with a 180hp should do a 500 foot strip fine. With the stuff you listed keeping it light is around 1250 on a good day. If you want carbon cub performance/weight, you need to get a carbon cub. I am thinking of building a cub also and waiting on bills big wing evaluation.
    DENNY
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    Thx Bill so you think Slats with the Keller Fowler flaps will be a good thing .

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowleveldevil View Post
    Thx mate maybe a superior IO 360 I think it has a governor on the front from memory.
    Look at the FAA data sheets for the Lycoming 0-360. Specifically look at NOTE 5 starting on page 9: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/d50a7ee17d7cd31e86257b63006becf0/$FILE/E-286_Rev_21.pdf

    Or for the fuel injected version. Look at NOTE 8 starting at the bottom of page 15: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/299fa3d6aef0ba048625821e0072188a/$FILE/1E10_Rev_28.pdf

    Both version of the Lycoming 180 hp have a model with the front mounted governor.

    For Superior engines look here: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/efe59ec584c1ee2b862580050056efbd/$FILE/E00001SC_Rev4.pdf
    N1PA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Aero View Post
    Slats on the other hand allow for a much less deck angle due to the increased camber and increased effective wing area created with the extended slat. ....... Look at a Helio with every thing hanging out at how flat it flies. .
    Slats alone will produce a very nose high angle of attack. In order to fly flat as the Helio does you also need a long trailing edge flap to counteract the effect of the slat. To simplify, LE slats move the center of lift forward. Long or enhanced flaps move the center of lift aft. Together they both function as a team.

    In order to simplify the airplane I would go with extra (double Piper's) long and/or double slotted flaps leaving off the slats. The USA35B airfoil has very good high angle of attack characteristics without modifications. Move the ailerons outboard to the end of a squared off slightly extended wing tip. The results are very good short field or pond capabilities.
    N1PA
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  31. #31

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    Lowleveldevil,

    Slats only work at high angles of attack. I read it on the internet. It must be true.
    Actually, slats alone never appealed to me. The combinarion of slats and long split flaps does. I can wheel land on a calm day in the low 20 mph range. And I'm nowhere near what I'd call good in my plane. The only down side I've found is landing in unfavorable winds, but I'll figure that part out.

    My favorite response to the high AOA comments is a video. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=278939462739118&id=2553260781 42483&_r
    Last edited by stewartb; 02-01-2019 at 08:51 AM.
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  32. #32
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Gents &
    Southern Aero

    I certainly enjoy a good discussion and thank you for sharing your knowledge. There are different types of LE devices. Some, like the Boeing 737, and to a limited extent the Helio extend forward and down. These effectively change the camber of the wing and will increase the lift at lower angles of attack. My understanding of the Backcountry slats (the only ones commercially available that I know of, and hence the ones I was referring to in my posts above) is that they are fixed slats that do not "open" until the AOA reaches a certain point. I do not know what that point is. But.....my belief.....and I may be wrong.....is that they would not be deployed at the takeoff or landing deck angle for "normal" float operations and perhaps "normal" gravel bar approaches. Obviously I have seen the videos of the very high AOA landings on youtube. Based on the OP's post and questions I asked why he wanted them.

    Doug Keller spent a great deal of time developing his flap because it lowers stall speed at a lower deck angle. He did not develop (though I know for a fact he looked long and hard at the concept) LE devices because he felt they would have limited benefit for normal backcountry flying applications. However, I will add that I have seen his LE slat experiments so I know he is still looking at it. LE devices that "extend and droop" add considerable complexity and weight and because of those design criteria have seen very limited application in GA. It sounds like the wing you are building may have a different type of LE slat than the Backcountry (Wayne Mackey) design.

    Hey....lets be clear here....I am NOT saying LE slats or slots, or Kreuger LE flaps, etc are bad!!! I use them several days a week. It all depends on your mission and what you want the airplane to do.

    But I asked, if they were necessary, based on his mission. Everything in aircraft design is a trade off, weight, complexity, cost, performance compromises, etc. LE devices have advantages and disadvantages. You just have to decide what works for you based on your knowledge of these compromises. Like all things LE devices are not free. Are you willing to pay the price? Does it fit your mission?

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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    Stewartb
    I think the Knik wind helped a lot more than the slats or flaps in that video. The thing that is pushing me towards the slats is the reports of the wing being very stable at very slow speed (getting old does not improve your reflexes). I think having the wing nut plated as you do is the way too go. Very easy to remove if you feel it is not worth it. Do the Backcountry slats pivot down at all as they open? Could the pivot point be changed so they did?
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 02-01-2019 at 11:18 AM.
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    Experimental Cub Kit with Slotted Wing 180 Hp and Big wheels any suggestions on kits

    Not much wind in that clip.

    Mackey slats pivot . The travel is limited by stops. The typical installation is slat LE flush with the bottom of the wing. Some guys have experimented with lowering the slat. I've heard mixed reviews about that. I'll probably never need anything more than what they provide me now.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  35. #35
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    The mackey flaps open even just as you are taxiing along... the get pushed shut when you go fast.


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  36. #36

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    And while my Cub cruises at 100 mph the slats are never fully closed. Very interesting to watch.

    Anyone else ever recognize how your plane's attitude changed with the addition of VGs? How you could fly a familiar attitude and found that the airspeed was lower than it had been before VGs? The same thing is true with the slats. I have to slow the plane down to about 50 mph before I can pull flaps. At 50 I'm not wallowing around with the nose high. It's in a normal attitude and rock solid. When I do pull flaps on the nose rotates down and I counter that by lifting the nose and slowing it down, grab another notch, repeat... If I wheel land faster than about 26 mph and lower the tail it flies back off. I need more time to get more familiar with a steeper final approach at slower speeds. All I need is a motor.
    Last edited by stewartb; 02-01-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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  37. #37
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Stewart.....

    In this video at the 4 minute point Kevin talks about the LE slats. Are there two different Backcountry LE slat designs?





    Thank you

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 02-03-2019 at 02:56 PM.
    Very Blessed.

  38. #38

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    When he's putting them through their motion they are pivoting on the hangar as shown in the photo I posted. You can see the main pivot and the smaller screw is the stop. The opening motion is very simple.

    FWIW Kevin's slats were set below the wing bottom.
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  39. #39
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Thank you

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  40. #40

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    My recollection of Helio slats is that they articulate. That is, they moved on tracks of some sort that changed their position forward as they deployed. Mackey slats are simple. And they don't make the big bang when they drop out like Helios' do.
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