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Producers and auto engines....

fobjob

fobjob

MEMBER
Salt Lake City, Utah
Way back in the early ‘90’s, it seemed like lotsa guys were buying up old tri-pacer fuselages, stretching the empennage, putting cub wings and V6 auto engines on them, and calling them a Producer. Crawled over one at Lake Hood one day. Later in the 90’s, I ran into some guys manufacturing Producer fuselages at Oshkosh...apparently Tri-pacer fuselages were getting scarce.
So, my question is: What happened to kill that trend? Both Producers and auto engine conversions? It seems like auto engine conversions are going great guns for lite sport....
 
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Of the few auto engine conversions I've seen, none were up to the task of running continuously at the relatively high power level required by an airplane. Coolant temp was a constant battle.
 
The little Suburu’s are very dependable. Got tons of time on them. But like all the other conversions I’ve been exposed to, Even if you can get them to last , None seem to be able to match the HP to weight ratio of the legacy aircraft stuff.
Also, I believe the guy you referenced of the pacers was Dave Bland and he was using the 6 cyl. Fords. I know of a few still flying!
 
PerryB said:
Of the few auto engine conversions I've seen, none were up to the task of running continuously at the relatively high power level required by an airplane. Coolant temp was a constant battle.
Click to expand...
You mean like the “coolant” problems we have with air cooled engines?
 
flyrite said:
The little Suburu’s are very dependable. Got tons of time on them. But like all the other conversions I’ve been exposed to, Even if you can get them to last , None seem to be able to match the HP to weight ratio of the legacy aircraft stuff.
Also, I believe the guy you referenced of the pacers was Dave Bland and he was using the 6 cyl. Fords. I know of a few still flying!
Click to expand...
I would think that the much lower costs would be equal to the weight penalty.....I’m wondering if most of the aircraft use in Alaska is part 135 and just requires certified power plants...comments?
 
fobjob said:
You mean like the “coolant” problems we have with air cooled engines?
Click to expand...
I've never had any notable cooling issues with any conventional aircraft engine I've operated. In the case of Lycoming powered Cub family aircraft, a great many of the issues are attributable to poor baffling and/or sealing of the cooling box. It's incredible what some people expect out of those big flippy flappy silicone seals. I've got mine hemmed in snug with felt and foam tape. I can't make it get hot. I've never seen a CHT over 380 nor oil over 210, and that's Nor-Cal in Aug. Under certain conditions in certain aircraft (mainly the go-fasts) you may have to climb a little flatter than desired, but after my last two encounters with car motors on airplanes, I will probably never even RIDE in one again.
 
Even if the auto engine is reliable and the cooling issues can be resolved the reduction gear box can be a PITA, some were really good some not so much. At the end of the day in a lot of cases it's cheaper and easier to stay with a conventional engine. Definitely the case in my neck of the woods.
 
fobjob said:
I would think that the much lower costs would be equal to the weight penalty.....I’m wondering if most of the aircraft use in Alaska is part 135 and just requires certified power plants...comments?
Click to expand...

Folks spend thousands to save a few pounds?

Glenn
 
Well, apparently folks around here will spend thousands just to have a few more blinkie lights on the instrument panel, so.....
If you have a bunch of connections in the airplane world, I think that if you shop around enough, the price of an adaquate power plant of the conventional variety might prove to be doable as opposed to any auto conversion option....
 
Where's Airwrench? He owns the Producer STC and also supports them in the E-AB category. I've known a few but have never heard of car engines in them until now. Really good airplanes with Lycomings up front. Pretty much a 4-place Cub with better doors.
 
I put 1300 trouble free hours on a EA 81 conversion on my first RANS S-7. I replaced the drive belt every 300 hours, and it still looked like new, and it cost less then $100.00. Automotive oil and oil filter (of course) and plugs. I didn't convert it but bought it complete from a now defunct outfit (Stratus).

BUT, it was a good 40 lbs heavier and didn't fit in the cowl like my current Rotax 912S. It also had single ignition. It did save me about 8K over the cost of a Rotax at the time. That is probably about the best case scenario for a auto conversion:save a few bucks, but you have to put up with a heavier weight. Cooling wasn't a problem, as half the engine stuck out in the slipstream! Not until I flew a fully cowled 912 powered S-7 did I realize how draggy that engine install was. I now have more power, less weight, dual ignition, an easy 2000 hour TBO (confirmed that 350 hours ago) and even burn about 1/2 to 3/4 gallon less per hour. For someone really on a budget I can see them making sense, as long as they are aware of their drawbacks.
 
fobjob said:
I would think that the much lower costs would be equal to the weight penalty.....I’m wondering if most of the aircraft use in Alaska is part 135 and just requires certified power plants...comments?
Click to expand...

I looked at putting a auto conversation in a CompAir Seven I built and found that the cost is ten times longer in time and 10x harder in work and almost no gain.the money is very close to the same. The resale compounds the loss of putting a auto engine in.
 
flyrite said:
The little Suburu’s are very dependable. Got tons of time on them. But like all the other conversions I’ve been exposed to, Even if you can get them to last , None seem to be able to match the HP to weight ratio of the legacy aircraft stuff.
Also, I believe the guy you referenced of the pacers was Dave Bland and he was using the 6 cyl. Fords. I know of a few still flying!
Click to expand...

flyrite

Your are close! It was Dave Blanton and the Javelin V6 STOL. Was real popular in the 70s to 80s. Most of them that are still flying have long got rid of the V6 Ford. It was a similar idea (stretching the fuselage) but in no way the same as Jake/Steve Bryant's STC'd Producer. It was a little crude but didn't have any structural issues. I have the prints if anyone wants to look them over for reference. The Javelin was most likely inspired by the Producer as the Producer was STC'd in 1959, I believe.
 
Ford Model A

220px-AirCamper.jpg
 
There have been several "fairly" reliable auto engine conversions but on average i'd say you will have to decide on whether you want to fly,........ or spend most of your time experimenting within gliding distance of the runway, sometimes for YEARS and never getting to the point when you can take off, point it to a spot 300 miles away and have any confidence that you can get there.....

Heck, I've done 2 lycoming FWF installs on E-AB aircraft in the past 5 years and they are difficult enough to get operating temps correct both summer and winter and everything hooked up and trouble free. You think it will take you only a couple months to do since you have done it before and a year later you are still "playing" with it......oh well.

Jack
 
Southern Aero said:
...It was Dave Blanton and the Javelin V6 STOL. Was real popular in the 70s to 80s. Most of them that are still flying have long got rid of the V6 Ford. It was a similar idea (stretching the fuselage) but in no way the same as Jake/Steve Bryant's STC'd Producer.....
Click to expand...

Kinda funny, he went to all the trouble of stretching the fuselage & converting to t/w gear, but as I recall he retained the standard MLG attach points and instead fabricated landing gear that cantilevered way forward. Dunno how well it worked, but it looked like it had a prolonged encounter with the ugly stick.
 
Its the Javron V6 STOL... I remember a magazine article on those in the early 80's...

A few years back there was a local SuperCub extensively modified into Experimental and had one of the V6 conversions done to it... Dad wound up overhauling a Lycoming 540 for it... That aircraft has been sold off since the owner passed away, sometimes wonder where it went... Had a weird extended fuselage with a retractable tail wheel system installed forward of the elevators...

Brian
 
I have a Ford V6 4.3 liter all set up for aircraft with PRSU and prop/spinner. A Friend took it off of his stretched Pacer and installed a Lyc. 0-360.

Anyone interested in a V6 let me know, Make you one heck of a deal.
 
dgmoore1,i would list it on barnstormers, the guys building scaled down p51 replica's might be interested.
 
Nick Smith and his son make a variation of this , this is the past owner of Smith Cubs. I saw one at his place a few years ago and it was set up for a O-540 if I remember right, SCGear, bigger wings of his design. He said he was going for a plane that would carry heavy loads in the bush. It was very interesting, might give him a call. I think he's in Thorndale, Ontario.519-461-0274. Tell him I said hi.
 
I thought the Producer was one of the prettiest conversions out there.
The Bushmaster-- Not.

There was a gorgeous one in Hardin til they took it coyote hunting.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
mike mcs repair said:
folks spend 10's of thousands.. to save a few pounds... light weight is not cheap!!
Click to expand...

​It's a matter of scale; I've met some cyclists will spend thousands to save a few ounces. I suppose an MD-11 or a B747 operator is happy if they can get rid of a ton here and there.
 
As I recall, Blanton had a huge tiff with his customers over his claim that he was developing 230 hp, when nobody could see how it was making more than 180 in practice. He made his own dyno, and I suspect it just wasn’t calibrated properly. (The torque brake, anyway....)
 
Brian, I don't know if it is the same one, but there is one just like you described in Belle Fourche SD. Brown, 540, and retract tailwheel.
 
Dave Roberts said:
Brian, I don't know if it is the same one, but there is one just like you described in Belle Fourche SD. Brown, 540, and retract tailwheel.
Click to expand...
No this one was blue and white. They augered in.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
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