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Thread: 0-320 hp upgrade

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    barrie's Avatar
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    0-320 hp upgrade

    Hi, Does anyone know the number of the Lycoming SI or SB for the conversion of an 0-320 wide deck from 150 to 160 hp? This would be the one that simply uses the 8.5:1 pistons and the heavy wrist pins. I need the data in order to satisfy the powers that be for a completed changeover.
    Thanks

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    If it is certified, you need an STC for the engine because you need authority to change the data plate. You can get that from LyCon. Then you need an STC to hang the engine of the airplane, I used CubCrafters but there are others such as Crosswinds STOL. You need to change the carb from a -12 to a -32 if not already performed and make sure the intake is of the correct diameter for a -32. If not you will need the reducing bushing. Otherwise you will find your rear cylinders running hot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    If it is certified, you need an STC for the engine because you need authority to change the data plate. You can get that from LyCon. Then you need an STC to hang the engine of the airplane, I used CubCrafters but there are others such as Crosswinds STOL. You need to change the carb from a -12 to a -32 if not already performed and make sure the intake is of the correct diameter for a -32. If not you will need the reducing bushing. Otherwise you will find your rear cylinders running hot.
    Thanks GeeBee, This is a homebuilt in Canada but the TC inspector is requesting acceptable data in order to support the upgrade. Also, the carb was a -32 as installed on the original certified aircraft. The engine has 63 hours since the mod and is a sweet running unit. We are just talking data here.

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    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    If it is certified, you need an STC for the engine because you need authority to change the data plate. .
    My brain cells are lacking a little oxygen today, but isn't there a SB or SL that covers that ?



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    barrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    My brain cells are lacking a little oxygen today, but isn't there a SB or SL that covers that ?



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    I'm sure there is but I just can't find it. Could be me with a little oxygen

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    Hi Stewartb,
    Would that be an authorization to just change anything within the TC E274 and refer to the parts used? Is it that easy? I was expecting to find something more specific to the HP upgrade.

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Probably, but the STC from Lycon is easy and not subject to opinions. It's what I used converting from A2B to B2B.
    Gordon

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    Hi Stewartb,
    Would that be an authorization to just change anything within the TC E274 and refer to the parts used? Is it that easy? I was expecting to find something more specific to the HP upgrade.
    The SB for replacement data plates is only with respect to the data plate. Any change from one model to another would have to be done IAW approved data, either another SB if it exists, an STC, or some other form of approved data.


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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    Hi Stewartb,
    Would that be an authorization to just change anything within the TC E274 and refer to the parts used? Is it that easy? I was expecting to find something more specific to the HP upgrade.
    Not sure there is a SB detailing what is needed to change from A2B to B2B. I just used the SI Stewart referenced, and the parts book, then filed a 337 until someone read The FAR's to me real slowly (2) Powerplant major alterations. The following alterations of a powerplant when not listed in the engine specifications issued by the FAA, are powerplant major alterations. now I wouldn't even file the 337
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Buy the STC. Take that to your Fed, then go fly.

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    (2) Powerplant major alterations. The following alterations of a powerplant when not listed in the engine specifications issued by the FAA, are powerplant major alterations. now I wouldn't even file the 337
    Exactly.

    Lycoming publishes SSP-110-1, which describes the physical make up of each engine designation. Mostly accessories/mags and provisions for props. With that and a parts book, you have your documentation.

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    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Then you need an STC to hang the engine of the airplane,.
    not meaning to pick on you GeeBee, no doubt that is the simplest ( and probably cheapest nowdays ) way to do it. But back in the days of tight asses and cooperative Faa reps, we could modify the engine per the SI's, SB's and Parts Manual, get the FAA engineering to issue a flight manual supplement ( cause we switched to requiring 100 octane ) for the Supercub and be on our merry way.
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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    cruiser's Avatar
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    Not certain it is an apples to apples comparison but my engine was changed from an A3B to an A2B by changing the prop dowels to 3/8, installing Bendix mags and plugging the crankshaft. IAW Lyc SSP 381 and PC103. A 337 was filed. Data plate was changed to -27A/C. /C indicating it has been converted. FWIW
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    not meaning to pick on you GeeBee, no doubt that is the simplest ( and probably cheapest nowdays ) way to do it. But back in the days of tight asses and cooperative Faa reps, we could modify the engine per the SI's, SB's and Parts Manual, get the FAA engineering to issue a flight manual supplement ( cause we switched to requiring 100 octane ) for the Supercub and be on our merry way.
    No offense taken. I also remember when we could set our sons on the jump seat and dress out a minor prop strike with a mill file. Times change and the Borg assimilates us all.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have never seen a service document on changing from 150 to 160 hp. It is shown in the O-320 parts manual, simple parts changes. No need for an STC if experimental. Sounds like you are dealing with a bunch of ignorant bureaucarts. Ignorant-lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have never seen a service document on changing from 150 to 160 hp. It is shown in the O-320 parts manual, simple parts changes. No need for an STC if experimental. Sounds like you are dealing with a bunch of ignorant bureaucarts. Ignorant-lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
    For an Experimental Amateur built, could be the difference between 20 hour or 40 hour phase 1. If he has a certified engine/prop combination, only needs 20 hour phase 1. Non certified engine or prop requires 40 hour phase 1. If the engine mods aren’t “FAA Approved” he gets a 40 hour phase 1.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    For an Experimental Amateur built, could be the difference between 20 hour or 40 hour phase 1. If he has a certified engine/prop combination, only needs 20 hour phase 1. Non certified engine or prop requires 40 hour phase 1. If the engine mods aren’t “FAA Approved” he gets a 40 hour phase 1.


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    He is in Canada so probably different rules. Ken at LyCon sells an STC but told me you can do it legally on a certified engine with the parts manual and service documents.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have never seen a service document on changing from 150 to 160 hp. It is shown in the O-320 parts manual, simple parts changes. No need for an STC if experimental. Sounds like you are dealing with a bunch of ignorant bureaucarts. Ignorant-lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
    I think you could be quite correct Steve,
    It appears to me that I have opened up a very large can of worms here. There is a lot of "data" for me to sort through but I think with SSP-110-1, SI1304J and reference to part numbers, it should do the trick. I will post when things get settled.
    Thanks everybody for the comments, they are much appreciated
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    S2D's Avatar
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    I don't know what lycons stc is but the STC that used to be out there was 4 using the straight cylinders, the 160 horse are choked if I recall

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    LyCon requires chocked and nitrated cylinders. I sent them an engine that the owner had upgraded himself with the original cylinders. He argued with Ken that he did it per an STC, which was LyCon's STC. Ken told me using standard steel cylinders with the 160 hp pistons will wear the bore out in 400-500 hours.
    Steve Pierce

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    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    Barrie did you buy a plane on the usa and import it into Canada . tell us the rest of the story why is TC involved?

    Curious Gerry

    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    I think you could be quite correct Steve,
    It appears to me that I have opened up a very large can of worms here. There is a lot of "data" for me to sort through but I think with SSP-110-1, SI1304J and reference to part numbers, it should do the trick. I will post when things get settled.
    Thanks everybody for the comments, they are much appreciated
    Gerry Marcil

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    I think you could be quite correct Steve,
    It appears to me that I have opened up a very large can of worms here. There is a lot of "data" for me to sort through but I think with SSP-110-1, SI1304J and reference to part numbers, it should do the trick. I will post when things get settled.
    Thanks everybody for the comments, they are much appreciated
    I suppose that it is a bit too late to mention that sometimes it is best to keep one's mouth shut.
    N1PA
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    Hi Gerry,
    Its a C-120 that my son and I built with a lot of mods and a subaru in it. Everything worked A OK except for the hot starts on floats. Then we decided to install the 0320 so we went ahead and built the mount, upgraded to 160 HP, filed the major mod report and went flying. 14 months and 60 hours later Transport came back looking for "Data" to support the installation. I have been grounded since early August and still trying to satisfy them. It looks like I have the answer for the engine upgrade but the mount is still an obstacle. And that's the story

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    So they were OK with the Subie but questioned the 320?
    Wow.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    So they were OK with the Subie but questioned the 320?
    Wow.
    That's right Hotrod,
    These inspectors know very little when it comes to home-built aircraft. They are attempting to apply certified rules and all that I can do is try to comply as best as I can.

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    Hi Hotrod
    I understand that you had a 150/150. I would be interested in knowing if it was a straight mount and if so which STC was used. I may need to go that route before my situation is resolved.
    Thanks
    Barrie

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    That's right Hotrod,
    These inspectors know very little when it comes to home-built aircraft. They are attempting to apply certified rules and all that I can do is try to comply as best as I can.
    Hmmm. Sound almost like applying FAR 23 rules to a CAR 3 aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    LyCon requires chocked and nitrated cylinders. I sent them an engine that the owner had upgraded himself with the original cylinders. He argued with Ken that he did it per an STC, which was LyCon's STC. Ken told me using standard steel cylinders with the 160 hp pistons will wear the bore out in 400-500 hours.
    I've still got an unused set of paperwork for that earlier STC. All it calls for is replacing the Piston, Piston pin, rings and exhaust valve. Used the original straight cylinders. Know of a couple that went to tbo.
    The rings for the straight wall cylinders were outrageous at the time cause Superior wasn't making them so they had to use the 160 rings in +.005.

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    Last edited by S2D; 01-19-2019 at 06:40 PM.
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    Hi Hotrod
    I understand that you had a 150/150. I would be interested in knowing if it was a straight mount and if so which STC was used......
    It was a dynafocal mount engine, 320E2A,
    utilizing the old "Texas Taildragger" / Engine Conversion Technologies STC # SA4795SW.
    Currently held by DelAir in Porterville Calif.
    The engine mount and exhaust both actually had Avcon data plates on them,
    as per the parts list that was in the STC paperwork.
    Last edited by hotrod180; 01-23-2019 at 12:03 PM.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  31. #31
    barrie's Avatar
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    Now that sounds like a proper little 150
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  32. #32
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I converted a 1959 Cessna 150 to an O-320 with the Delair STC back about 10 years ago. Was helping the owner change the vacuum pump the other day and I believe the cowling is still off if you need pictures.
    Steve Pierce

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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I converted a 1959 Cessna 150 to an O-320 with the Delair STC back about 10 years ago. Was helping the owner change the vacuum pump the other day and I believe the cowling is still off if you need pictures.
    Hi Steve,
    Thanks for the offer but I am just thinking about where my situation may end up. If I need to; I will be looking for an STC'd mount. I hope it won't come to that.

  34. #34
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I guess I don't understand what the issue is?
    It might be easier for others to contribute helpful information if you'd give us a better picture of what you're trying to accomplish.
    Sounds like......you have an experimental C120 which you pulled a Subaru engine off of, and installed a 160HP 320--
    And now you need to document approval of converting that 320 from 150 to 160?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    That's right Hotrod,
    These inspectors know very little when it comes to home-built aircraft. They are attempting to apply certified rules and all that I can do is try to comply as best as I can.
    Odd the “stop flying” came after the switch to a real engine from the Soob?? Transport has a lot of experience with standard aircraft engines, so the MDRA office’s appointed inspector should easily be able to say “this is the info we need.” Then you get that info to them. The MDRA’s inspectors are looking for safe properly built stuff. (There is something they don’t like about you’re engine change out). Ask them to tell you what it is specifically.

  36. #36
    barrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I guess I don't understand what the issue is?
    It might be easier for others to contribute helpful information if you'd give us a better picture of what you're trying to accomplish.
    Sounds like......you have an experimental C120 which you pulled a Subaru engine off of, and installed a 160HP 320--
    And now you need to document approval of converting that 320 from 150 to 160?
    That's pretty close. They are looking for acceptable data for the engine mod and installation but at the same time they won't accept anything but approved data in order to back it up. Yep, only in Canada.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    Odd the “stop flying” came after the switch to a real engine from the Soob?? Transport has a lot of experience with standard aircraft engines, so the MDRA office’s appointed inspector should easily be able to say “this is the info we need.” Then you get that info to them. The MDRA’s inspectors are looking for safe properly built stuff. (There is something they don’t like about you’re engine change out). Ask them to tell you what it is specifically.
    MD-RA loses control after the initial 25 hrs. is flown off. After that we are at the mercy of the regional TC airworthiness inspectors. The conversion is properly done and there's 60 hours on it. This is just a paperwork thing that has gotten out of hand.

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    The approved data for changing 150 hp to 160 hp is the type Certificate data sheet. Over 60 different models of the same engine with subtle changes. Use th3 parts book and bolt on the correct cylinders, pistons, rings, and piston pins.

    all approved under the same TCDS # 274

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by barrie View Post
    MD-RA loses control after the initial 25 hrs. is flown off. After that we are at the mercy of the regional TC airworthiness inspectors. The conversion is properly done and there's 60 hours on it. This is just a paperwork thing that has gotten out of hand.
    Fair enough. How did Transport find out about the engine switch though?

  40. #40
    barrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    Fair enough. How did Transport find out about the engine switch though?
    I was stupid enough to file the required Major Modification report. The engine type is noted on the C of A so I didn't have much choice. The moral of the story is stay with the same type of engine.
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