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Thread: Performance STOL flap testing

  1. #41
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainflier View Post
    Be cautious, when making these improvement to slow down our airplanes to make them fly slower, you also lose aileron and rudder effectiveness at slow speeds. It's a lot of fun to go out and fly these airplanes in a no wind conditions, but as the wind picks up I carry a little more speed for controllability. When a gust of wind hits you and drops a wing, you still have control.
    Good point, As with all mods that bring about better low speed performance, another set of issues are created. Spoiler boards have helped tremendously with the 35 mph and slower approaches on my mount. Also, not only are the performance dominoes activated when adding different mods, You also have a new set of piloting skills that are required!
    The great thing about this mod, is even if you do not plan to lower your approach speeds, it’s still lowers the nose and it appears to be well worth it.
    Last edited by flyrite; 12-20-2018 at 04:44 PM.
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  2. #42

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    1. It’s a CC/PA 18/150, built while they could under PMA.

    2. We keep it legal with weight in tail. I have no doubt it would be legal CG wise. My concern is for the reduced angle of attack, and the toes digging in when landing on water.

    35 years ago I flew a 235 Pacer. The empty legs were sporting on floats. Smallest sweet spot in my experience.
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  3. #43
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    You can pull the nose up, you still have full control it just flies slow flatter than stock flaps where you can 3 pt slower
    than you can wheel land. Probably help your CG since the flaps weigh 12 lbs more than stock.
    Steve Pierce

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  4. #44

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    Most Cubs achieve their slowest flight by trimming nose up and maintaining a high AOA. Float guys give up most of that in lieu of a more useful attitude. Pstol flaps will give you slower speeds in a more useful attitude for float ops. The nose heaviness limitation is about ability to trim. I'd think these flaps will reduce that problem, not add to it.

    Piper flaps on floats were not my fav after years in Cessnas. Pstol flaps would change that. I've dreamed a little about my exp Cub on floats. It would be big fun.
    Last edited by stewartb; 12-23-2018 at 09:48 AM.
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  5. #45

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    Won't the angle of attack, that the wing stalls at, still be the same with the Keller's deployed? BUT, I'll bet, you are slower at and before that critical angle of attack, with the Keller's installed, so effectively you can come in at a much flatter angle and hopefully be slower than you were coming in, with stock flaps, at a high angle of attack? I bought those bad boys at the May "show" and they are now installing them as they are rebuilding my wings. Can't wait to try them out!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    Won't the angle of attack, that the wing stalls at, still be the same with the Keller's deployed? BUT, I'll bet, you are slower at and before that critical angle of attack, with the Keller's installed, so effectively you can come in at a much flatter angle and hopefully be slower than you were coming in, with stock flaps, at a high angle of attack? I bought those bad boys at the May "show" and they are now installing them as they are rebuilding my wings. Can't wait to try them out!
    No.

    Changing the chamber of the wing (deploying flaps) changes its Cl/Cd curve, changes the wing’s performance. Different flaps affect wing performance differently.

    Don’t confuse wing angle and fuselage angles here, that’s an easy mistake to make!

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have gotten a little stick shake when slow on one of the 3 sets I have installed so far. Not as much as I have felt on the Dakota wing with the long flap. Not a big deal but you just feel it a little. The installation instructions say 50.5 degrees +/- 4 degrees. The bottom of the wing is somewhat concave so it is a bit subjective. I use a long straight edge between the leading edge and false spar and zero my digital level on that. I have been getting between 55 and 60 degrees but then when you put a simulated wind load on the flap you get within the spec. The last one I did I was flying the approach at 38 IAS and 35 on the GPS without much wind At all and it was solid. I would really like to try on my Super Cub because I am pretty intimate with it but it is just not in my budget. One thing I did notice was when doing stalls and when it breaks you are way nose down staring at the ground. It breaks straight but it is a lot different than a stock flap in the stall. I just finished my third install with a fourth set waiting. I have tweaked the installation procedure and will post about the way I have been doing it with a lot of pictures when I get some time.








    Do you, or anyone you know, have experience with these flaps on a 180HP Cub on amphibs?

    I’ve pulled the trigger and bought the flaps, but still a bit leery


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  8. #48
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    No, the shake I experienced in one but not in the other 5 I have been involved with. It is not really a shake but a vibration. I am a dealer for these flaps and can offer some solutions to a few of the installation snafus that I have experienced in the installs I have done. Installed a set over the weekend for a guy from Califoria who bought his Super Cub new in 1977 and has flown it all over Mexico, Utah, Idaho and Canada. He had a grin from ear to ear after his first flight with them and then called me on his trip home to tell me how much he liked them. He said it was like flying helicopters on landing. Still trying to work them into my budget.
    Steve Pierce

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  9. #49
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Not the flaps your talking bout , Or even a Cub, But does demonstrate the same tendency to shake the tail when the 3rd notch of flap is pulled which causes the stick shake. Can be minimized by applying a little power.


    https://vimeo.com/338443318

  10. #50

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    Friend just installed them. I flew his cub. He asked me what I thought of them. Had no comparison. Hadn't flown a supercub since 1975.

  11. #51

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    Going through threads as I’m considering slats on my bow tip cub wing. Don’t know how I missed this thread. I have to ask, Cory, am I reading your original post correct?? Touch down speeds at 25mph across the ground with stock length Keller’s!!?? If so, I hate to be that guy, but I have a hard time with that 100% true. I have an 1115 lb 360 cub with increased incidence, as far up as I could go without chasing my tail elsewhere, inboard Keller’s, TL, VGs, little tweaks here and there and a pretty long/flat prop (creating a decent brake with power) that I have 500 ish hours in. A lot to learn, but feel I’m fairly intimate with it. And I can not come no where near 25mph (groundspeed)! What am I missing???? Speeds in the high 20’s are what guys with 100+” flaps, slats etc are seeing. That is with the nose to the sky. Fairly safe to say most stock flapped cubs (no Keller’s) doesn’t like flying much slower than 40 with no wind and still being able to land on the mains with much visibility. Your saying a 12+mph reduction?? With my mods above, which in all reality isn’t much or anything crazy, I have a hard time dragging the tailwheel on the ground while keeping the mains up much under 33-35, can go a tad slower but there’s ore power in. I guess I need to up to 300 hrs a year instead of 200
    Last edited by hunt/trapak88; 11-09-2019 at 01:29 AM.

  12. #52

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    P.S. The Keller’s are rigged for 60+ degrees on the ground

  13. #53

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    Would just like to clarify that the flaps are most definitely an awesome investment and no downsides other than 12lb ish gain which is nothing compared to the pros. Don’t mean to be confusing for others when referring to them as Keller’s.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunt/trapak88 View Post
    ... If so, I hate to be that guy, but I have a hard time with that 100% true. I have an 1115 lb 360 cub with increased incidence, as far up as I could go without chasing my tail elsewhere, inboard Keller’s, TL, VGs, little tweaks here and there and a pretty long/flat prop (creating a decent brake with power) ........ I can not come no where near 25mph (groundspeed)! What am I missing???? Speeds in the high 20’s are what guys with 100+” flaps, slats etc are seeing. That is with the nose to the sky. Fairly safe to say most stock flapped cubs (no Keller’s) doesn’t like flying much slower than 40 with no wind and still being able to land on the mains with much visibility. Your saying a 12+mph reduction?? With my mods above, which in all reality isn’t much or anything crazy, I have a hard time dragging the tailwheel on the ground while keeping the mains up much under 33-35, can go a tad slower but there’s ore power in. I guess I need to up to 300 hrs a year instead of 200
    What is your CG when you are checking these speeds? The description of your plane indicates that it is nose heavy unless you have ballast of some sort. Try loading it to a CG of 20", check your landing ground speed in no wind and report back here.
    N1PA
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  15. #55

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    Composite prop, no flywheel etc. most definitely is not nose heavy. I was under the impression the whole thing about the flaps is too keep visibility and nose down while losing some speed.?? I am not buying a pretty much stock cub other than the flaps coming in with good visibility and plopping it on the mains at 25-28mph in no wind. I would like to see even a highly modified cub do that. At those speeds I would guess the landing distance is almost never over 100’??
    Last edited by hunt/trapak88; 11-09-2019 at 07:29 AM.
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  16. #56
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    I installed Performance STOL Flaps on my Super Cub in July. My Cub is 1132 lbs, on 31s, Baby Bushwheel with 8241 prop, 3" Atlee gear, micro VGs and Thrustline mod. They slowed me down but I am not in the 20 on ground speed, in the 30s. When I bought my Cub 5 years ago it was pretty much stock with VGs. I have incrimentally made all the changes and the flaps were the biggest enhancement in my opinion. The airplane is noticably slower and conciderably shorter landings. The flat pitch is great as well as I am not a fan of dragging it in. 3of us with 160 hp Cubs and P STOL flaps got to play some last weekend and pushed the limits pretty good. To me all this stuff is like crack, I get use to the added performance and now I want more. Less weight and a better prop is net I guess.
    Last edited by Steve Pierce; 11-09-2019 at 09:31 AM.
    Steve Pierce

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    Any experience, anyone, with getting so caught up in the enhanced low speed/short landing improvements, that you have landed an off airport site, then realized you couldn't get back out?! I was thinking of that a couple days ago, circling a ridge side and eyeballing a site, , then seeing another nearby one that was even shorter and thinking "if I had slats.....", but I guess if it comes in slower and shorter, it'll get off shorter also, is that the "plan?" I guess the mature pilot takes all that into consideration, and that's exactly why I would worry about doing just that. Right now, I know if I can get in, I can get back out. Greatly shortening the landing length required without a commensurate decrease in the takeoff length required would get me into trouble. I still want some, slats and PSTOL flaps, like crack indeed. I'm at 31 mph right now touchdown speed.
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  18. #58

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    If you have adequate power the flaps are a great takeoff tool, too.
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  19. #59
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    I can get out of anywhere I can land. Took more getting use to the take-off technique with the P-STOL flaps than the landing.
    Steve Pierce

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  20. #60
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    That was a concern when I was flying the 135hp SC. At lower weights and density altitudes, a 150/160 should be able to get out of anywhere it can get in with clear approach and departure paths . Higher elevations change that.

  21. #61
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    I have to Make sure to give thought to the required takeoff distance before I land anywhere. My little mount is capable of getting in about 75 to 100’ shorter than I can get out. Touchdown it’s in the low 30s, takeoff is in the low 30s, but horsepower required (thrust) to accelerate me to that speed is where I am very limited!
    Played in the foothills of the Smokies last weekend, that requirement was made extremely clear a couple of times.
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  22. #62

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    Beauty of the 360. I always scratch my head on guys with these big wings and slats then have a ‘pumped up 320’. Cool beans, you can land incredibly short. Then spend a day making more room if any load is wanting to be hauled out. I’ve had both engines, 10:1 320 won’t touch a stock 360 with even a legal prop pitched proper.

    Back to the flaps. I’m glad I’m seeing some others with similar touchdown speeds as me with same mods. I was about to head up and start tearing the plane apart. Calling landing in the ‘30’s’ compared to the ‘20’s’ significant I’m going to assume is an understatement. For those of you considering buying these flaps, do it. Won’t regret it. But you better be Johnny on the rudder/power though if you try to hang them out there attempting to fly them to the advertised 25mph. Or be disappointed with a almost 9k investment and find yourself wondering why you didn’t lose the speed you thought you would. Will they land at 30-low 30’s maybe even high 20’s, possibly. But you will be at 2200+ rpms and be looking out your side window, cuz all you will see out of the screen is sky. Which dissolves the purpose of these flaps..my thoughts. Good day
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  23. #63

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    Get in / get out distance isn't always about the runway length.

  24. #64

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    Pstol flaps are amazing. In combination with power? Freaking amazing. Lots of SQ videos on Youtube display that. Now we can use flaps for takeoff like we always have in Cessnas. Very cool. Slats are a whole nuther dimension.

  25. #65

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    In all due respect...I have seen cub drivers references to using GPS speeds...why would anyone ever do that 'cept for bragging rights. The airplane flies what's on your IAS indicator. The GPS readout factors in +/- wind. Who cares if your cub is flying at 0 with a 30kt wind? You're still flying at 30! Are you guys flying referencing your GPS readout and not your IAS? Whoa, if that's true!!! [QUOTE=bob turner;734427]I can't wait. I am encouraging my Super Cub buddies. I may even do the installation for free.
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I can't wait. I am encouraging my Super Cub buddies. I may even do the installation for free.

    Are you using GPS speeds, or just airspeed indicator? We can fly a stock Cub at zero indicated.

  26. #66
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    I use both and so do some I fly with. We compare the two to see if and how much head wind or tail wind we have when playing in areas where the wind direction is not obvious. A lot of times you can tell you have a slight tail wind/ head wind etc. Sometimes it isn't as obvious. I like to use all the tools I got.
    Steve Pierce

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  27. #67

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    I use nearby water to gauge wind. When slow I don't trust the airspeed indicator to be accurate. For most landings I don't look at it.
    Last edited by stewartb; 11-09-2019 at 11:00 PM.

  28. #68
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    I think my airspeed indicator has some error

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  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I use both and so do some I fly with. We compare the two to see if and how much head wind or tail wind we have when playing in areas where the wind direction is not obvious. A lot of times you can tell you have a slight tail wind/ head wind etc. Sometimes it isn't as obvious. I like to use all the tools I got.

    This is good... I mean really good when you are down to the nitty gritty.... but as you've already discovered, it's not 100%.
    Spraying at night I often hear another pilot on the radio asking his spotter for wind direction, and I just don't get it... I mean if he arrived at his field and sprayed his headland passes first, and then rolled out and set up his field (he just flew the perimeter in four directions) he theoretically *should* know the wind direction and speed....

    Trouble comes when you are incredibly slow (not the norm in spraying) or, the wind movement is... because then the vertical component may often match or exceed the horizontal component of the air movement. And that piece alone can screw the pooch on the whole process... Flying is by no means two dimensional....


    Take care, Rob
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  30. #70
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    The gusts down in the river can get kinda sporty and sometimes the wind changes while we are out playing. Last weekend 3 of us were chasing each other around, all with P-STOL flaps and came to the conclusion they create more turbulence behind them. Flying into the wake turbulence gets pretty sporty for sure.
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  31. #71
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    I have spent too many years landing airplanes and flying Vref to ignore the A/S indicator as some claim. However, give me a heads up display with AOA and you can remove the A/S indicator.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  32. #72
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    This is what you guys need to determine the wind. It is an on board wind sock among lots of other things. I have one in my 185 and it works great. When coupled with your GPS it displays a wind direction arrow on the GPS.


    http://www.insightavionics.com/tas1000.htm
    N1PA

  33. #73

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    When it comes to discussing the performance of wing mods. Reporting your indicated airspeed for a cub does Little due to the inaccuracies of airspeed indicator’s at slower speed., A GPS speed corrected for wind speed would be much more accurate. Kind of similar to people saying they can land and takeoff a heavy loaded cub in 200 feet but fail to mention the 20 mph on the nose. I do use my airspeed indicator routinely for all realms of flight however I try not to use it when reporting performance Mods.
    DENNY
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  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    When it comes to discussing the performance of wing mods. Reporting your indicated airspeed for a cub does Little due to the inaccuracies of airspeed indicator’s at slower speed., A GPS speed corrected for wind speed would be much more accurate. Kind of similar to people saying they can land and takeoff a heavy loaded cub in 200 feet but fail to mention the 20 mph on the nose. I do use my airspeed indicator routinely for all realms of flight however I try not to use it when reporting performance Mods.
    DENNY
    Which is why I posted that the P-STOL flaps are hands down the biggest enhancement I have made to my airplane thus far. The 160 hp from 150 and the Thrustline were next. VGs were installed when I bought it. I don't normally look at the AS and I get asked a lot what airspeed do I land at etc. In the end it is all just information processed and used but feel is the most important thing to me.
    Steve Pierce

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  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I have spent too many years landing airplanes and flying Vref to ignore the A/S indicator as some claim. However, give me a heads up display with AOA and you can remove the A/S indicator.
    That works for a true AOA system. I’d be very careful trusting one of the general aviation units out there. They are quite different from airliner/military AOA systems.

    And MOST light general aviation aircraft wings offer subtle but easily felt “signals” as they approach critical AOA.

    But, whatever floats your boat.

    MTV

  36. #76

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    I agree, the Keller flaps are the best mod going. They reduce stall speeds, increase lift for takeoff, and fly flatter approach compared to stock flaps.
    Love them.
    John

  37. #77
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    Performance STOL flap testing

    [QUOTE=flywhatever;759070]In all due respect...I have seen cub drivers references to using GPS speeds...why would anyone ever do that 'cept for bragging rights. The airplane flies what's on your IAS indicator. The GPS readout factors in +/- wind. Who cares if your cub is flying at 0 with a 30kt wind? You're still flying at 30! Are you guys flying referencing your GPS readout and not your IAS? Whoa, if that's true!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I can't wait. I am encouraging my Super Cub buddies. I may even do the installation for free.
    Wow my cub must be the slowest flying cub on takeoff. It flys at 0 until the climb out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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