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Thread: New (to me) Supercub... Running hot? Charging issues too

  1. #81

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    It was an overhaul in 2008. Yes.. overhauled engine on a new built airframe. I wish he had kept receipts.. but it doesn't appear so. Log appears to say mags were overhauled then as well.

    I had given up on the charging system.. as it APPEARED (I know.. with the crappy gauge) like it wasn't charging after I'd been flying it around for a while today.

    I decided to start it later this afternoon.. and confirm that it really wasn't charging. Fired it up, right up to what I know now is 14.5v

    Alternator and starter look new. Starter is a sky-tech.

    Yes.. it does have just 45 hours on it now. Exhaust is new. I'm going to take a few pictures for 'what is it?' identification.

    It's LOUD! like 127db according to the display on the garmin radio.

    I think I'm doing a much better job of managing temps. If I let it accelerate to 60 to 70.. CHT on 3 is staying at 450 or under. Others about 100 less. Once cruising around.. #3 is just over 400.. and others 325 or so.

    Oil seems to stay in the 120 to 150 range. You think I should put one strip of foil tape over the front of the cooler? I have the cooler mounted on the back of #4

  2. #82

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    You know, sometimes a little short or bad ground will make your charge circuit do strange things. Chase the simple stuff first to make sure you don’t bolt a lot of money on it to see it doing the same thing. I chased an intermittent alternator for years. It went away when the plane was re-wired. Nothing stood out as bad.

  3. #83

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    I never had good luck with tape holding on the rear cooler but give it a try. You can use thin washers to offset the cooler from the baffling and then make simple metal plate to slide between the cooler and baffling, I have a thin and wide one works great. If you have bendix bags they tend to be pretty bulletproof. I would just check timing, If number one is 325 you can try some metal tape 1 inch on front of cylinder to push more air back to number 3. Do you have a big hole above number feeding a scat tube to the muffler?
    DENNY

  4. #84

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    I have a scat tube in front of 2 that feeds muffler. I was going to try a bit of foil tape on #1 to see if I can force more air up and over. Just using the eyeball, it seems like the block off plate is under half way up the jug. I've seen others with more 'ramp.' Mine is just a 90deg angle. I've bought some black silicone and will seal the aft baffle to the accessory case per Dan Dufalt's suggestion.

    The mechanic wants to set the cooler back half to 3/4 of an inch, he thinks it ran hot in summer due to the cooler being up against #4.


    As for chasing the wiring.. Being that it's so cold, and I just bought it. I haven't had much chance to just poke around it. I should have the datums in a few weeks, and when it's inside for that, I plan to address a few little things.

    I'm learning a lot as I go.

    JP

  5. #85

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    A bit of follow up.

    I swapped the probes. #3 is still the issue. It's running about 50 hotter than #4. A short climb to say 1k feet that is keeping the speed down around 50 is yielding CHT in the 460 range.

    It does cool of at cruise.. but it's always hotter than the others by 50. I'm still tweaking the baffling around that one.

    Charging issue, isn't. Gauge reads a bit off. I think it pretty much charges right to 14.5 or so... checked with multi meter.

    Loving the new Datum skis.

    I've put 15 hours or so on it since I bought it. Not bad for winter. I'll keep digging on the CHT issue.

    JP
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  6. #86
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    Hopefully I’m not rehashing something that’s already been put to bed, but what do your baffles around #3 look like?

    Where’s your oil cooler mounted? How’s the seal around your oil cooler if it’s on the cowling?

    Google this: “CHT washer mod site:vansairforce.com”

    I clearanced my baffles behind #3, ensured my cowl was sealed tight, and added the spacer and my #3 came much closer in-line with my other CHTs.
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  7. #87

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    If you still have no drop in RPM with carb heat you are way too lean. You should see about 75-100 degree drop at 2400 rpm.
    DENNY
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  8. #88

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    I'm gonna repeat what Denny said because I think it's worth repeating. If you don't have a drop in RPM when you apply carb heat, something is wrong there. Could be the carb or improper carb-heat rigging. Fix this and test fly it again.

    450, 460 is way too high for such a short climb out. Until the culprit is identified and corrected, the only flights that plane should be making are test flights.

    Your engine is not running properly.

  9. #89

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    I am getting 100 rpm drop from carb heat at full power.
    Oil cooler is behind #4 .

    My baffles had been touching at the aft, lower corner of #3. I've got some space there now, but it's not quite what I'd like yet.

    JP
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  10. #90

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    Interesting read on that Vans site. thanks for the info

    JP

  11. #91
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Did you do a compression check on #3? Sounds like exhaust valve is leaking.
    N1PA

  12. #92
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    New (to me) Supercub... Running hot? Charging issues too

    Quote Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
    Interesting read on that Vans site. thanks for the info

    JP
    To see the difference look at front of front two cylinders, notice how there are cooling fins on one and not on other near intake port and exhaust... so if baffle is tight, no air flows to bottom portion when in #3 position


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  13. #93

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    Happy to report..

    First flight today with new bayonet CHT probes.. and and EDM350 monitor.

    I saw cruise CHT at 380s. I saw 402 on a Vx climb much higher that I needed it.

    New fuel flow gauge..my 160hp o-320

    I got 10.5 gal/hr on take off (after liftoff, as it wound up) .

    7.5 or so gallons an hour at 2400rpm.

    leaned out to about 75 rich of peak... 6.6 gal/hr

    SEEMS like I believe all these numbers much more than the previous gauges. My 3 is still the hot one... but it's much better.

    JP

  14. #94

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    You should be burning more fuel than that wide open on take off climb,
    Is your fuel flow calibrated correctly?
    if so, you're too lean.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    You should be burning more fuel than that wide open on take off climb,
    Is your fuel flow calibrated correctly?
    if so, you're too lean.
    Brand new computer and fuel flow setup. I'll take a look at the book on setup and see if he missed anything. This winter we drilled the main jet out bigger. Plugs all look pretty good. I could fill a tank and run that one exclusively and fill back up to check flow number.



    JP

  16. #96

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    No need to run a tank dry. Top a tank off (yourself), run min of 10 gal then top it off to the exact same spot in filler neck. Compare what you put back in the tank to what your meter said. Ambient temp should about the same when you go to refill.
    What brand fuel flo devise do you have? I'd be surprised if it doesn't require calibration to your application. Too many variables in fuel systems for one size fits all.

    Rule of thumb - full rich, you should be burning almost a gallon per horsepower

    edit: sorry, misread your last post, sounds like you've got the idea.
    Also, have you checked leaning authority with your new probes installed?
    Last edited by Oliver; 05-31-2019 at 06:22 PM.

  17. #97

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    Thanks.. wasn't planning to 'run dry' though. Just go on a good long flight using one tank only.. and top off before and after.

    Fuel flow was what came from options on aircraft spruce for EDM-350

    Not sure how it works.. but I'd imagine it's some sort of 'paddle wheel' so it knows how much flows though... how would that change from one application to another??

    I thought the plane was a bit slow today (indicated speed) but I only went for a short ride.

    I did think the 7.5 at cruise sounded about right.. I was a bit surprised by the 10.6 or so on takeoff, I would have expected more.

    JP
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  18. #98
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    Rule of thumb - full rich, you should be burning almost a gallon per horsepower
    divided by 10. 160/10=16gph The Lycoming manual says 13.6 gallons per hour at 2700 rpm/160 hp.
    N1PA

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    divided by 10. 160/10=16gph The Lycoming manual says 13.6 gallons per hour at 2700 rpm/160 hp.
    I'm not turning up to 2700. Even level, full throttle I only got 2650. Prop is a 7454. Climb out was around 2500 at about 60kts.

    Either way.. reading up a bunch of posts (mostly RV guys running 320s... It sounds like I should be more in the 13+ range.) . question is.. is it running that.. or is it running lean?

    Pretty easy to figure out. Just take a bit of time.

    JP

  20. #100
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Go to sections 32, 33, and 34, in the installation manual. It explains the 'K factor' for the fuel flow sensor and how to check/adjust it to match actual fuel usage.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  21. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Go to sections 32, 33, and 34, in the installation manual. It explains the 'K factor' for the fuel flow sensor and how to check/adjust it to match actual fuel usage.

    Web
    Was JUST getting back on here to say... Read the directions. You're right.. page 32. It pretty much says... take three LONG flights.. record the burn.. the REAL burn.. and reset the number. I think it's infinitely more likely that I'm burning the right amount.. and it's just counting it wrong.

    Thanks. Typical guy. Go fly it.. scratch your head.. ask around.. when ALL ELSE fails. look at the directions.

    It'll be a good excuse to put some time on. I need to do 5 hours with the new Whirlwind.. AND stay within 35 miles of home.

    Two birds.. one stone.

    JP

  22. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    divided by 10. 160/10=16gph The Lycoming manual says 13.6 gallons per hour at 2700 rpm/160 hp.
    “Almost”
    ive heard this figure quoted before, seemed to ring true.
    My (lycon) 160 cub burns 14.5 gph
    Maule O540 23 gph

    whats an educated guess on a general rule of thumb
    for sea level carbureted engine?

  23. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    “Almost”
    ive heard this figure quoted before, seemed to ring true.
    My (lycon) 160 cub burns 14.5 gph
    Maule O540 23 gph

    whats an educated guess on a general rule of thumb
    for sea level carbureted engine?
    There were lots of guys throwing out math on the RV forums. I want to say it was something like .54 or .56 POUNDS of fuel per HP per hour. So.. that means 300hp is 27 or 28 gph wide open. Sounds like that math works.

    JP

  24. #104

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    A couple of thoughts. I have a 160 that ran hot. Do you have any intake performance mods such as ported and polished intakes? Engines that breathe good tend to run a little lean. I get 12.6 on take off. Second, since you have a good monitor, run it at less than 70% on the lean side of peak. I get mine about 15 to 25 lean of peak, makes about 10 degrees difference on CHT with no degradation in speed. With a 75/56 I run at 2400 at 4000 DA at a fuel flow of about 6.6 to 6.8. My hottest CHT (3 and 4 are the same) run about 380.

  25. #105
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    New (to me) Supercub... Running hot? Charging issues too

    Random question: do you have a -12 or a -32 carb?

    What’s your O-320-xx nomenclature?

    The -12s run leaner than the -32s. Depending on your oil sump you may need a tapered adapter between the carb and the oil pan
    Last edited by CamTom12; 05-31-2019 at 09:28 PM.

  26. #106
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    “Almost”
    ive heard this figure quoted before, seemed to ring true.
    My (lycon) 160 cub burns 14.5 gph
    Maule O540 23 gph

    whats an educated guess on a general rule of thumb
    for sea level carbureted engine?
    My post was only to adjust your rough rule of thumb calculation not meant to be precise.
    My rule of thumb for cruise fuel burn is rated horsepower, drop the zero then divide by 2. 160, 16/2 = 8 gph. This is the rough safe fuel burn for flight planning.
    Yes you can massage this by your personal operating technique. Running lean of peak, rich of peak or not leaning at all.
    N1PA

  27. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Random question: do you have a -12 or a -32 carb?

    What’s your O-320-xx nomenclature?

    The -12s run leaner than the -32s. Depending on your oil sump you may need a tapered adapter between the carb and the oil pan
    I'll have to look at the carb.

    It's an E2A motor

    I'm pretty happy with the plane. Had it about 6 months now. Have put 50 hours on it.

    Gotta finish up the EDM 350 probes. Put the whirlwind prop on. Put in a new windshield.

    Maybe buy a second set of rims, and some 31s.

    I'm pretty content. I'd never say i'm 'done' . but it will be pretty much what I had imagined. It's a far cry from my 100hp C-140 that was my first plane for 3 years.

    Oops.. forgot the Clamars I'm looking at. But that's down the list after I save up for an older Prevost Bus.

    JP

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
    I'll have to look at the carb.

    It's an E2A motor

    I'm pretty happy with the plane. Had it about 6 months now. Have put 50 hours on it.

    Gotta finish up the EDM 350 probes. Put the whirlwind prop on. Put in a new windshield.

    Maybe buy a second set of rims, and some 31s.

    I'm pretty content. I'd never say i'm 'done' . but it will be pretty much what I had imagined. It's a far cry from my 100hp C-140 that was my first plane for 3 years.

    Oops.. forgot the Clamars I'm looking at. But that's down the list after I save up for an older Prevost Bus.

    JP
    I’m pretty sure (but not positive) that the E2A has a straight riser oil sump meant for the -32 carb.

  29. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    I’m pretty sure (but not positive) that the E2A has a straight riser oil sump meant for the -32 carb.
    You're well beyond my knowledge base. Here's what I have. MA-4 SPA

    Click image for larger version. 

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  30. #110
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    I actually have next-to-nothing for carb knowledge. I just happened to have previously searched a similar question to yours.

    Here's a thread that made a lot of sense to me: https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...ming-O-320-160

    Applicable quote from that thread here:

    Quote Originally Posted by longpacer View Post
    I agree that you want a PA-18 airbox, but it will fit any of these carbs.

    In my opinion, the advantage of the 10-3678-32 carb is that it flows more fuel at full throttle and therefore provides better cooling on climbs. It also has a unique economizer feature that leans the mixture somewhat at partial throttle.

    An O-320 E series engine from a Cessna probably has a 10-5009 or 10-5062. These run leaner at full throttle than the -32. This can be fine in a Cessna because it has a better cooling system than a Cub.

    Replacing a carb can be pricey. I would try the carb you have but keep a watch on the CHTs during climb. If they are getting hot – over 400 – I would ream out the main jet a little and try it again.

    A Service Instruction (SI-1305C) was issued for the 10-5009 and 10-5062 that calls for the replacement of the main jet with a new nozzle to provide better fuel atomization. You want this mod if you use one of these carbs. It helps equalize the fuel distribution between cylinders to keep some from running lean and hot. If the carb number is 10-5009N or 10-5062N, it already has the mod. If you need to ream that nozzle to get better cooling, try reaming it to .096. If that is not enough, try .099.

    In terms of other carbs for your engine, I believe that the 10-5135 is the 5009 with the new nozzle installed at the factory. The 10-5217 is the latest version of this series and has replaced the 10-5135. These are good carbs and include later engineering than the -32 models which were designed in the 50s. I would give the carb you have a try for your project.

    Bob
    So it seems to me that you have a good model carb with the desireable "pepperbox" nozzle - might need to be reamed a little if you're still hot on climb-out.

  31. #111

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    I did buy a new nozzle, and mechanic did ream it out some. I think it's worth trying a bit more. I think the one he took out was a 'pepperbox' as well.. so I'll be able to go back to the current one if the next size is too much.

    Too many projects on the list.

    JP

  32. #112

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    All is well on the TCOW. I'm amazed at how much cooler it runs with the prop pitched way down flat. I'm probably a little flatter than I SHOULD be for wheels.. with the 31s on there now. Ski season is right around the corner. Back row is in the high 300s now.. fronts around 300. I need to tweak baffling a bit still.

    The 1600 foot runway with obstacles at the house is done. Need to seed in the spring.

    I got a cheapie manometer. It confirmed my guess. I got about 2.5" water column in a climb. Best I saw was about 4.0 inches in a moderate decent.

    SO.. I'll be going bigger on the seaplane lip. I bought the floats for it, so getting the cooling as good as I can is called for. A few tweaks left before winter, but I'm really happy where I've ended up.

    Jason
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  33. #113
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Was that the major change - repitching the prop?

    Did the new nozzle seem to make any difference?

  34. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Was that the major change - repitching the prop?

    Did the new nozzle seem to make any difference?
    Well Fall arrived when I repitched the prop. So cooler ambient. I went from way coarse pitch ( I went to Ohio and Indiana and back) to real fine pitch.
    Also.. I changed the center hub on the wirlwind.. It's an 80" prop now instead of an 82"

    The nozzle did make a difference, but I was still to hot for my comfort (425 in long sustained climbs.. summer temps)

    The 35 dollar manometer and a few lines confirmed that I'm not getting the airflow that's optimal. I'll tweak the seaplane lip, see how big a difference it makes.

    JP
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  35. #115
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    I’d tighten up the baffles where I showed you at the bowman fly in first. Then seaplane lip. Do one change at a time so you know what effects what


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  36. #116

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    I do need to do that side piece. It's soft for sure. Getting to be to cold to mess with that stuff! I think it's due in the hangar once more before winter. New intercom needs to go in. The cooling stuff is going to have to be sorted well for float season.
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  37. #117

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    I had a similar problem with my -14 and experimented with different lip sizes. Starting with a 1“ then 2” then 4” at the end, our conclusions yielded very small gains based on the lip size at the end of the day. Our largest gains came from adding the super cub style louvers to the lower cowl, which you already have.

    Next was creating a flap using duck tape on the top of the baffling so when air passed into the cowl it couldn’t escape between the top cowl and the baffling, thus forcing it thru the cylinder fins. Cheap and fast way to check you baffling seal.

    Next we were going to try ramps for the front cylinders and enlarging the lower cowl opening/lip combo, we didn’t make it that far though. We discovered the ring probe vs bayonet probes/ gauge combo lead to false readings during certain temperature ranges. Thus why sometimes the gauge was accurate sometime and other times wasn’t.

    Your mileage may vary but that’s what we figured out.


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  38. #118

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    Lycoming has fuel burn charts out, I found them when working on my plane, If I remember correctly 2700 RPM was over 14 GPH, I will try to find a link when I get a chance. I mentioned earlier that the pepperbox jet could be a problem. Each motor will be a bit different but I have seen one with a polished one pice venturi that required a number 29 drill bit to make it flow properly. I will get on the soapbox for a bit and reminded everyone that just because your buddy/CC/Backcountry or anyone else makes or changes a part does not mean it is right!!!! Get the instrumentation for you engine to tell what is going on. This post is a great example how proper gauges can save your motor. Just sending the carb out to be rebuilt/bench flowed will not work because every engine/application/cowling is different.
    DENNY

  39. #119

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    On another note, Props make a huge difference on CHT'S. Change the pitch on a Borer 3 degrees and you can see a 20 degree CHT temp change.
    DENNY

  40. #120
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    On another note, Props make a huge difference on CHT'S. Change the pitch on a Borer 3 degrees and you can see a 20 degree CHT temp change.
    DENNY
    100%. It’s about the power required in this situation. All other things being equal, coarser pitch requires more HP to spin at the same RPM. Producing HP generates heat.

    If you have efficient cooling you can get away with higher “continuous” power production than if you have poor cooling.
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