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Anyone fly a kit fox?

Scouter

SPONSOR
Exeter Maine
My son Andy is a huge fan of the Flying Cowboys from out west. He is always showing me some vids from a couple of those guys, all of which are great pilots and better videographers

one of them recently was in a very bad crash with a kitfox. Sounded like a steep turn to final, stall and no room to recover. I have zero kitfox time, but it doesn't seem right that wing would bite you so badly ion a bush plane design? I suppose a cub will do the same thing if you push it into that corner

jim

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nF1riozcme0

jim
 
The Kitfox has a stellar record over the decades, a large amount of fleet hours. But there is always a way to crash a good plane, as we all know. Stuff happens, the brand has had its share of incidents, but nothing to suggest the basic design is flawed. I put 650 hrs on a K 1 in the 80s, and nowdays fly around and with them often. Did I mention stuff happens?
 
The folks involved are still looking for answers, there was some suggestion something happened with the airplane. Looking for answers from NTSB or FAA ����

i flew my CarbonCub through it's own wake this summer slow and flaps down while drawing a pair of boobies with the smoke for my neighbors birthday. It sure got my attention really fast. Glad i was at 5000 feet. It didn't moose stall but close

jim
 
No cameras, no people, no nothing, home field just shooting landings in my Spezio Tu-holer and happened to notice someone at a nearby horse center having a problem with their horse(we have horses too). For just a few seconds was focused on the ground and it almost got away from me, well it did but I was right on top of it. At least I was turning base and still relatively high. I only lost less than 100 ft. Probably would not have even been looking if lower and/or turning final? Whatever the ground is always there........

I don't know anything about the Kitfox!!! At least the Spezio absolutely YELLS at you just before or as it quits flying. Thankfully.

This was some time ago and I believe I've learned a lesson. I'm glad I wasn't in the Acroduster 2. It says almost nothing when it quits. I know that and always pay attention to IT, ALWAYS.

I think I may have let a too familiar old friend lull me into a mistake?

FWIW

Jack
 
There was a guy in the 90's who flew a Kitfox and would do a departure stall on climb out followed by a half turn spin and a swoop back across the field he had just launched from. Lots of screaming from people who had not seen it before. Very sad the last time when the spin continued to the ground and everything burned.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20001206X02787&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA

This fellow had previously redone an Ercoupe and misrigged the elevator intentionally to get it to loop.
 
I notice that Trent Palmer, his buddy, has stall fences on his Kitfox’s wings..I don’t think you can put too many stall prevention devices on your wings...



*with emphasis on keeping the outboard sections flying no matter what.....
 
Jim C, my friend Jim A who has been a 912 kitfox owner for over 15 years is now having a blast in the hotrod C90 Champ that Ray had. The one I got in Old Town. He has flown more in the Champ in the last 4 months then he flew the kitfox over the last 4 years

Glenn
 
Been around a few. My mechanic had to rebuild a couple. If any one asks me, I suggest they put their time and money in a real airplane. Just my opinion.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
Been around a few. My mechanic had to rebuild a couple. If any one asks me, I suggest they put their time and money in a real airplane. Just my opinion.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
Fair enough. Thanks for sharing.
 
Probable Cause and Findings
failure to maintain flying airspeed while executing a downwind turn at
low altitude immediately following takeoff.


Ha !! even the FAA agrees with us now ! !8)
Does it matter on upwind turns?:roll::lol:
 
I met a bunch of the Flying Cowboys at the High Sierra Fly-in last month. A great bunch of guys who love aviation and Trent Palmer has published some amazing videography on his YouTube channel. It all looks like great fun but since the accident I think he has realized that there needs to be an element of reality presented in regards to safety. Especially in regards to the low stuff, it's maybe easy to get away with out in Nevada or Utah but in more populated areas there are uncharted towers and wires everywhere and stunts like these need to be pre-planned and choreographed carefully or sooner or later somebody's gonna hit something.

As for the accident, Nikk survived and says he's going to tell the story of what happened so maybe there will be a benefit from it. Most of the guys who have an incident like that don't get to tell us about it.
 
My Dad built a Kitfox Model 3. It was not designed as a Bushplane and has been adapted to one. My Dad did a departure stall with my Mom aboard. I am not a fan of the Kitfox after looking at the wreckage. The two door openings go all the way from the top to bottom longeron and the impact caused the engine and instrument panel to fold back into the cockpit. 25 plus years ago I researched this accident and came up with several other similar both arrival and departure stalls, most with fatal results. Having recovered a lot of wrecks, fallen straight down in a Clipper from 100' and gone through a powerline and trees in a Pacer and lived there is something to be said for the crashworthiness of our rag and tube Pipers. The kitfox looks like a good, capable airplane but these are just my observations over the past 28 years.
 
I flew a friends Kitfox - 2 stroke. Flew really great, but I couldn't stand the sound of it. When we're forced to go to all electric cars, I'll have to install a sterio engine sound generator. (The folks building the Rotax powered scale P-51 in Poland, have a Merlin sound system installed) :roll: There's no sound like the rattle of a PA-18. No substitutes accepted.
 
<<< But there is always a way to crash a good plane, as we all know. Stuff happens,>>>

<<<
Glad i was at 5000 feet. It didn't moose stall but close>>>

<<<
Very sad the last time when the spin continued to the ground>>>>

<<<
since the accident I think he has realized that there needs to be an element of reality presented>>>

<<<
The two door openings go all the way from the top to bottom longeron and the impact caused the engine and instrument panel to fold back into the cockpit.>>>


Sh1t happens, happens amazingly fast, and typically when you are not expecting it. We (typically) are not aerobatic pilots performing a practiced routine in a regulated box. Usually it's the opposite, we are having fun and all is good until the manure hits the fan.

As a kid, physically and in particularly in ego, I used to fly a low pass (on the deck) north up the runway, and then pull hard up and right. As I reached a barely appropriate height and distance, I'd pull the throttle, dump all 3 clicks of flaps and arc back down to land to the south, all without leaving the confines of the airport perimeter. All in a '69 Musketeer. Couldn't fathom the number of times I did that.

What happened was I got away with it. What should have happened is Alphonse Quesenel (airport owner) should have come out and chewed my ass off for that type of flying. Either that or he was waiting for it to teach me something and it became a learning experience. Luckily it didn't.

But the point is just because I hung around with a bunch of pilots flying ag-planes and watched them crop dust all summer didn't mean that I learned anything from it. And if you aren't schooled in energy management and dedicated to the art of it, all those crop dusters will tell you it's just a matter of time.

I've corresponded with Trent a little bit since the accident, and Nikk is extremely lucky to be in the condition he is. The horror of him and Nikk's dad watching the crash happen is probably worse than Nikk's memory of it.

I apologize, I digress from the topic.

I will say this - I have a more discerning eye when looking at aircraft design since my accident, but even prior I am easily dissuaded from some aircraft that appear visually to be "light". Steve's observations are spot on in my opinion. Every airplane will crash, every airplane can kill you. Balancing the aircraft, your skill, your judgement, and external factors will determine the risk/reward of your flights.
 
Sure glad the young man survived the accident. As we all know every airplane design has its good and not so good points. Ultimately an airplane will only do what you make it do.
 
I flew a friends Kitfox - 2 stroke. Flew really great, but I couldn't stand the sound of it. When we're forced to go to all electric cars, I'll have to install a sterio engine sound generator. (The folks building the Rotax powered scale P-51 in Poland, have a Merlin sound system installed) :roll: There's no sound like the rattle of a PA-18. No substitutes accepted.
There is no substitute for a Rotax 912 unless maybe a 915.
 
I have a little homebuilt cub clone. I think it' the safest airplane ever. I know It can just barely kill me.
 
Having flown most all the light stuff, I've always thought of the Kitfox as just what it is....a wonderful. great flying little plane. Is it as great a plane as the Cub, Is it as crash worthy as the typical steel tube fuselage, NO. I have never bought any plane based off whether or not is it more crash capable than another, I guess some do. Devotees to a certain aircraft type see every other types shortcomings. This is demonstrated all across the aviation spectrum, from the jet flyers to the spam cans to the ragwing bunch.
We all have our opinions, But, When most get in an airplane, Just like on a motorcycle, They pretty much are aware that were the worst case scenario to happen, They generally ain't gonna be saved by the structure around them in most cases!
Hell, My biggest issue with the Fox is, it ain't as bush capable as its competitors in the category, and they are priced just as high as the legacy mounts anymore.
 
We all have our opinions, But, When most get in an airplane, Just like on a motorcycle, They pretty much are aware that were the worst case scenario to happen, They generally ain't gonna be saved by the structure around them in most cases!

Yet, there are several in this thread that have crashed and are here talking(typing?) about it. I demolished an Ag Cat, and was back spraying 2 days later. I won’t even try to count how many guys I know have balled up an ag plane and are still flying. Well built planes do a great job of getting you home in one piece. I used to crawl into anything I could just to fly, but I’ve become much more discerning after a well built plane, plus helmet and harness, saved my life.
 
<<< But there is always a way to crash a good plane, as we all know. Stuff happens,>>>

<<<
Glad i was at 5000 feet. It didn't moose stall but close>>>

<<<
Very sad the last time when the spin continued to the ground>>>>

<<<
since the accident I think he has realized that there needs to be an element of reality presented>>>

<<<
The two door openings go all the way from the top to bottom longeron and the impact caused the engine and instrument panel to fold back into the cockpit.>>>


Sh1t happens, happens amazingly fast, and typically when you are not expecting it. We (typically) are not aerobatic pilots performing a practiced routine in a regulated box. Usually it's the opposite, we are having fun and all is good until the manure hits the fan.

As a kid, physically and in particularly in ego, I used to fly a low pass (on the deck) north up the runway, and then pull hard up and right. As I reached a barely appropriate height and distance, I'd pull the throttle, dump all 3 clicks of flaps and arc back down to land to the south, all without leaving the confines of the airport perimeter. All in a '69 Musketeer. Couldn't fathom the number of times I did that.

What happened was I got away with it. What should have happened is Alphonse Quesenel (airport owner) should have come out and chewed my ass off for that type of flying. Either that or he was waiting for it to teach me something and it became a learning experience. Luckily it didn't.

But the point is just because I hung around with a bunch of pilots flying ag-planes and watched them crop dust all summer didn't mean that I learned anything from it. And if you aren't schooled in energy management and dedicated to the art of it, all those crop dusters will tell you it's just a matter of time.

I've corresponded with Trent a little bit since the accident, and Nikk is extremely lucky to be in the condition he is. The horror of him and Nikk's dad watching the crash happen is probably worse than Nikk's memory of it.

I apologize, I digress from the topic.

I will say this - I have a more discerning eye when looking at aircraft design since my accident, but even prior I am easily dissuaded from some aircraft that appear visually to be "light". Steve's observations are spot on in my opinion. Every airplane will crash, every airplane can kill you. Balancing the aircraft, your skill, your judgement, and external factors will determine the risk/reward of your flights.

My Dad built a Kitfox Model 3. It was not designed as a Bushplane and has been adapted to one. My Dad did a departure stall with my Mom aboard. I am not a fan of the Kitfox after looking at the wreckage. The two door openings go all the way from the top to bottom longeron and the impact caused the engine and instrument panel to fold back into the cockpit. 25 plus years ago I researched this accident and came up with several other similar both arrival and departure stalls, most with fatal results. Having recovered a lot of wrecks, fallen straight down in a Clipper from 100' and gone through a powerline and trees in a Pacer and lived there is something to be said for the crashworthiness of our rag and tube Pipers. The kitfox looks like a good, capable airplane but these are just my observations over the past 28 years.

It has a typical tube truss under the door opening, the door does not go clear to the bottom longeron, nothing real different there., Similar to every other light steel tube airframe. Look at their website, Dean Wilson designed the thing, and he is no dummy. Smaller tubing, sure, but so is the gross weight.
 
It has a typical tube truss under the door opening, the door does not go clear to the bottom longeron, nothing real different there., Similar to every other light steel tube airframe. Look at their website, Dean Wilson designed the thing, and he is no dummy. Smaller tubing, sure, but so is the gross weight.

Sorry I don't have a picture of the Kit Fox but it was less of a crash than this and way worse on the airframe. Flight loads and crash loads are two different things.

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You are correct, there is a truss at the bottom of the doors. Two big openings and the top broke, hinged at the bottom and the panel came in on the occupants. Same reason I don't like the experimental version of a left door in a Pacer where the duplicate the right door. Been to too many crash sites and seen what fails. That is how I look at bare bones fuselage structures now. Kinda like have stuff mounted over my head and between my legs.
Denney%20Kitfox%20Mk.III
Denney%20Kitfox%20Mk.III
 
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