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Just bought my 1st plane, PA-18-150, and looking for recommendations on IFR avionics

GeorgeMandes said:
From May thru the beginning of October, I fly countless trips between Homer and our remote cabin on Lake Clark. I get more ice in “the summer” over the west side of Cook Inlet at 10,000-12,00 feet, with an east wind, and over the Chigmit Mountans between Chitina Bay and Lake Iliamna and Clark, than anywhere else I fly in the US. Enough ice that it is more than a TKS Caravan can handle some days, and I have near run out a 21 gallon TKS tank on a 100 mile flight there. There are also many days when there is no ice. With experience, it is pretty easy to figure out whether there will be ice or not, and when you are wrong, a 180 degree turn, climb or descent to exit icing conditions is in order. I can’t remember a single day that I would rather be over fifty miles of Cook Inlet at 1,000 feet under a broken to overcast layer, rather than at 12,000 feet with glide to shore. That goes for a Carbon Cub, Husky, 185, Caravan or a Bell helicopter.

If handling the worst conditions possible is our criteria, pretty soon we will only be in a hot wing jet, flying runway to runway, on days without runway contamination, or just staying on the ground. Back to the original post, it is best practice, even in backcountry flying, to have current instrument skills and enough equipment in whatever you are flying to open up more of the sky for routine or emergency operations. Hopefully this new Cub owner will acquire those skills.
Click to expand...

Thats all well and good, George, but if you want to stay legal, you’d do well to reference the FAAs latest definition of “Known icing”......which can seriously complicate flight in clouds with an airplane that’s not equipped for FIKI.

I spent a lot lot of time slogging around under stuff, and some time in it. But cool weather and clouds can be better left alone unless you’re equipped, and if it’s warm weather, you’re also going to need weather for t-storm avoidance.

Im just not a big fan of a Cub as an IFR platform. It can and has been done, no doubt. But there are certainly better platforms.

MTV
 
For the average pilot the weight of a IFR panel in a cub is a not really an issue. How many can tell the difference between 20 and 25 gallons of fuel in a cub??? That is 30 lbs. Ya a cub is not a great IFR platform but if you need/want it and you have cubic dollars go for it. But, what is the mission? MJDONOVAN ya got to give us more info, DON'T LEAVE US HANGING DUDE!!!
DENNY
 
mvivion said:
Thats all well and good, George, but if you want to stay legal, you’d do well to reference the FAAs latest definition of “Known icing”......which can seriously complicate flight in clouds with an airplane that’s not equipped for FIKI.

I spent a lot lot of time slogging around under stuff, and some time in it. But cool weather and clouds can be better left alone unless you’re equipped, and if it’s warm weather, you’re also going to need weather for t-storm avoidance.

Im just not a big fan of a Cub as an IFR platform. It can and has been done, no doubt. But there are certainly better platforms.

MTV
Click to expand...

Again, "it depends". Almost daily you have marine layers covering places like coastal CA in which there is no icing but low ceilings and visibilities but no convective activity and no icing. Ditto places in the SE US. As I said initially, the Cub is no weather ship, but neither is it totally neutered. A lot of forecasts include "icing in clouds and precipitation" however if the operating altitudes are well below the freezing level it would be a hard case to press against a Part 91 operation. There are only two ways that case could be pressed successfully and that is if the POH prohibits it (which in any CAR 3 airplane that is not the case) or "careless and reckless". C&R usually would only come into play if there was an accident and regardless of the reason they are going to press that one anyway. Again as I tried to point it, it always, "depends". Particularly in Part 91.
 
MJDONOVAN lobbed a dud grenade into the room then left the building. His thread has generated a lot of interesting and informative discussion, but without his input, no firm answers. I would like to see an answer to Steve Pierce's question: "What is the mission for the Super Cub?"

I have been in inadvertent IMC in the Cub several times, and would never be without an attitude gyro. But I see no need for a completely IFR'r Super Cub. I had enough of that in the airline.
 
Flew IFR for 40+ years. Been retired now almost 13 years. Flown zero approaches in that time. Bought 5 hotel room nights in that 2500 hrs of "playing with my friends". To equip, stay current and SAFE (proficient) requires a sizable investment. I'd rather put it in gas....ymmv

1
 
The OP should do exactly what he wants for his own reasons. Me? I'd wait to see if Dynon expands their certified boxes to include a Cub, or try to get a deviation to add one. After a little time with my G3X Touch my next airplane project may be to add a G500 txi to my Cessna and ditch the old school instruments and layout. And that's only 8 years old. Beware of what you spend on a panel because anything you do will be outdated in a couple if years. It'll still work, it just won't work as well as the new stuff. Fun with airplanes.... cha ching!
 
The problem with the Garmin G500 and G1000 is upgradeability. Do not get me wrong, they are fabulous units but.......Lots of Cirrus and C-182 owners out there with pre-WAAS G1000s and the price to upgrade to WAAS will take your breath away. I think Garmin even stopped offering the upgrade. Worse, is on the C-182 the G1000 is part of the TDC so you are stuck with either big bucks or no Buck Rogers buying only from Garmin. I tend to look at modularity in avionics so that if something new comes out it is a box swap or a little more wiring. Equally so, I try to stay away from proprietary protocols and looks for something that will play nice with others.
 
Assuming MJDonovan is still interested, I'll put my $0.02 in on where I am personally with this IFR thing. I fly in the Southeast and my only interest in IFR for my Super Cub is being able to get to altitude on popcorn cloud summer days and low overcast winter days. I totally agree that the Super Cub is a VFR plane though. I will probably never fly an approach or an arrival with the SC.

My plane was IFR capable at one point, but the previous owner took out the turn coordinator for some reason. The King KLN 35A GPS is ancient, I can't really figure it out and its database was last updated in 1999. Updates are no longer available. It has an old King transponder and a King 155 Navcom radio. I'm not too worried about weight because new avionics will just be replacing the old stuff and at my age I'm not going to fly from Knoxville to Valdez to compete in the STOL competition anyway. A local avionics shop is putting together a quote for a used non-waas Garmin 430 with terrain, a Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B out, a used course indicator and a used electric turn coordinator. I already have an old Garmin GTX 327 transponder that will work well with the GDL 82. I don't plan on paying for an approach subscription for the 430.

One problem I might have is that there is a diagonal crossbrace behind the panel - it means that I don't have room for a Garmin GNS 530 but the GNS 430 will probably go in.

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Tennessee said:
Assuming MJDonovan is still interested, I'll put my $0.02 in on where I am personally with this IFR thing. I fly in the Southeast and my only interest in IFR for my Super Cub is being able to get to altitude on popcorn cloud summer days and low overcast winter days. I totally agree that the Super Cub is a VFR plane though. I will probably never fly an approach or an arrival with the SC.

My plane was IFR capable at one point, but the previous owner took out the turn coordinator for some reason. The King KLN 35A GPS is ancient, I can't really figure it out and its database was last updated in 1999. Updates are no longer available. It has an old King transponder and a King 155 Navcom radio. I'm not too worried about weight because new avionics will just be replacing the old stuff and at my age I'm not going to fly from Knoxville to Valdez to compete in the STOL competition anyway. A local avionics shop is putting together a quote for a used non-waas Garmin 430 with terrain, a Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B out, a used course indicator and a used electric turn coordinator. I already have an old Garmin GTX 327 transponder that will work well with the GDL 82. I don't plan on paying for an approach subscription for the 430.

One problem I might have is that there is a diagonal crossbrace behind the panel - it means that I don't have room for a Garmin GNS 530 but the GNS 430 will probably go in.

View attachment 39938
Click to expand...

its worth pointing out that is not a stock size panel. This is the “squared panel” that is mentioned here. Quite a bit more room than stock panel.

MTV
 
cubdriver2 said:
This looks like a perfect solution to get out of trouble?

https://youtu.be/pdQ0T7RfXOM

Glenn
Click to expand...

I believe that the Dynon STC is available from the EAA.

Tennessee, drop the 530 below the panel, just set it back to clear the forward stick position, most every serious fish spotter has an avionics stack below the panel that would make most lear captains drool.

If Uncle Eaton would will me an unlisted budget to upgrade my KX-155 IFR panel, I would stay with the G-5 I have, but add in a second one and the GPS that interfaces giving me not only a full attitude, t&B, vis, airspeed, ground speed altimeter- but instrument approach information all in one unit; small and compact and quick to read once you learn it.

This system is great for saving lots of pounds out of your airplane, not only on installed equipment, but out of your pocketbook also:p

Back in the dark ages IFR and instruments were in direct contrast to 'light'. Today we can have a full IFR legal panel for less weight than the old 'basic' panel used to be with the glass available. Some of the stuff is even more reliable when starting up at sub zero- gyros hate cold weather. The total package is also smaller than the basic panel used to be also- only two instruments and some wires and probes.

So today the argument has evolved from weight and room, to reliability and cubic dollars. Reliability has been very good from what I have seen.
 
aktango58 said:
I believe that the Dynon STC is available from the EAA.

Tennessee, drop the 530 below the panel, just set it back to clear the forward stick position, most every serious fish spotter has an avionics stack below the panel that would make most lear captains drool.

If Uncle Eaton would will me an unlisted budget to upgrade my KX-155 IFR panel, I would stay with the G-5 I have, but add in a second one and the GPS that interfaces giving me not only a full attitude, t&B, vis, airspeed, ground speed altimeter- but instrument approach information all in one unit; small and compact and quick to read once you learn it.

This system is great for saving lots of pounds out of your airplane, not only on installed equipment, but out of your pocketbook also:p

Back in the dark ages IFR and instruments were in direct contrast to 'light'. Today we can have a full IFR legal panel for less weight than the old 'basic' panel used to be with the glass available. Some of the stuff is even more reliable when starting up at sub zero- gyros hate cold weather. The total package is also smaller than the basic panel used to be also- only two instruments and some wires and probes.

So today the argument has evolved from weight and room, to reliability and cubic dollars. Reliability has been very good from what I have seen.
Click to expand...

The only STCs for Dynon equipment is for the various 172s. The D-3 shown in that video isn't approved for anything....it's portable.

The new, be all, do all Dynon Skyview system starts at $10 K and goes up rapidly if you actually want anything other than a PFD. $23 K or so for the IFR version.....again, only STC'd in 172, with pending approval for Bonanza. Looks to be a very nice system, but bring $$$.

And, I don't know what the weights are for those, but when Aviat started installing Garmin G-600 in some Huskys, I asked how much weight was saved, and their response was that it's actually heavier than conventional IFR setup. Don't know how much or why, but..... So, I'd verify weights before I went there. Bear in mind that a PFD requires a backup for IFR (and maybe for VFR). That can be steam gauges or another PFD. Again, bring $$$

MTV
 
Tennessee said:
Assuming MJDonovan is still interested, I'll put my $0.02 in on where I am personally with this IFR thing. I fly in the Southeast and my only interest in IFR for my Super Cub is being able to get to altitude on popcorn cloud summer days and low overcast winter days. I totally agree that the Super Cub is a VFR plane though. I will probably never fly an approach or an arrival with the SC.

My plane was IFR capable at one point, but the previous owner took out the turn coordinator for some reason. The King KLN 35A GPS is ancient, I can't really figure it out and its database was last updated in 1999. Updates are no longer available. It has an old King transponder and a King 155 Navcom radio. I'm not too worried about weight because new avionics will just be replacing the old stuff and at my age I'm not going to fly from Knoxville to Valdez to compete in the STOL competition anyway. A local avionics shop is putting together a quote for a used non-waas Garmin 430 with terrain, a Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B out, a used course indicator and a used electric turn coordinator. I already have an old Garmin GTX 327 transponder that will work well with the GDL 82. I don't plan on paying for an approach subscription for the 430.

One problem I might have is that there is a diagonal crossbrace behind the panel - it means that I don't have room for a Garmin GNS 530 but the GNS 430 will probably go in.

View attachment 39938
Click to expand...

If you want to keep this style panel and use the 530, the easiest way is to cut a new panel. Move your push/pull cables and key switch down to the lower edge and the 530 will fit. Cutting the panel itself is not a huge job. LOTS of wiring to do after the cutting is done.

Web
 
I have been thinking about the same questions as you. Started with getting IR (in an Arrow)- halfway now. Got tailwheel endorsement a few months away also because i was thinking of getting a Cub (possibly IFR certificated). Now I’m restoring a Cub and have learned a lot about the aircraft. It will be a very unstable IFR platform. The fun thing with a Cub is accomplished with as light weight as possible and as many HP as possible in the same aircraft. If money is of importance (as it is to most of us), lightweight is the most important part of the above.
I will try to get my cub NQ- which means “partly” IFR certified. But the size of the panel is really a problem.
As small instruments as possible, only necessary instruments (also because they might break..) and as lightweight instruments as possible (G5/D3 other similar, Sandel? Have I forgotten anyone?- TRIG transponder and radio got good reviews, there are a few others- Garmin 650 or even better the Avidyne IFD440 with the iPad app if you really want mounted GPS..otherwise Stratux seem to give good value for money with built in AHRS and other features.).
If I have to go in the “soup” I really would lika a certified G5 and FF with a Stratux as backup as a minimum.
What do you other pilots say about the above!?
 
So what are the required type of instruments and radios for this NQ certification? What's required, not what you'd like?

Web
 
Required instruments:
• Collision warning light
• Navigation lights / position lights
• A landing spotlight
• Light for instruments and equipment
• Light for the passenger compartment
• Pilot pilot / pilot light
• Gir and turn indicator
• Horizon Gray
• Variometer
• Kursgyro
• Pitot tube heat (depending on flight conditions)
• Warning for failure of the power supply to the gyro industry
• Magnetic Compass
• Clock showing hours, minutes and seconds (may be a wristwatch)
• Pressure altimeter
• Speedometer.
• First aid kit
• Fire extinguisher except for ELA 1 aircraft
• Float vests for emergency landing in the water are likely in the event of engine shutdown
• ELT, for aircraft up to 6 seats, is sufficient for PLB
• Flying vests / flight aids (during flight including start / landing over water) Communication equipment (depends on airspace rules)
• ATS Transponder (depends on airspace rules)
• Survival equipment (in some cases)
• Navigation equipment (in some cases, eg flight "on-top")
• Oxygen equipment (in some cases)
 
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To clarify..
Horizontal gyro, course gyro, heated pitot, and indicator warning for failure of the above. Standard instruments (altimeter, VSI, airspeed indicator, whiskey compass) - lights, and the rest as needed depending on the aerospace. Nothing about backup systems.
 
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What country is that? In the US, I think three gyros and a nav radio will be legal, along with the clock and VFR instruments. Not sure, but I think no requirement for a rate of climb, let alone a variometer.
 
john machamer said:
So after summer 18' on the East coast and spending three different days scud running at 1000' to try to get somewhere, I too have thought about how nice it would be to be able to file and climb on top when the ceiling is 1000' over. I have a standard VFR panel with a small compass centered in the panel and a vacuum turn and bank below. I plan to remove the turn and bank, move the compass to a remote location, maybe on top of the glare shield and put in an Aspen Evolution Pro in the center two holes. Then change out my old GPS for a used Garmin 430. I am pretty sure I am then legal for IFR. I would limit my IFR to daytime 1000' ceilings and have the IPAD with the Stratus AHRS and Foreflight
as the emergency backup. Not that I really want to fly the SC IFR it provides some options to get out or in when everyone else is sitting around. Would have surely helped me out this past summer.
Click to expand...

John, isn’t that what the Navion is for?


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While I wouldn’t advocate for a “full” for panel in a Cub, one of my first flying jobs was banner towing along the jersey and LI shore. I was flying a PA-12. One day, with an onshore breeze, the sea fog rolled in. I was very happy to have a working turn and bank! Lear to fly needle ball and airspeed! Don’t think of it as something that allows you to go into the soup, but a safety net to get you out if you find yourself in a situation you didn’t intend to be in. Basic VFR instruments with a turn and bank can be a life saver!


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Since experts say that VMC into IMC conditions is one of the leading causes of death in GA, maybe having an IFR panel is money well spent. Another reason to go to an IFR panel is IFR currency. Staying current by flying practice approaches in a SC is a lot cheaper and easier than flying them in a heavier airplane.
 
Tennessee said:
Since experts say that VMC into IMC conditions is one of the leading causes of death in GA, maybe having an IFR panel is money well spent. Another reason to go to an IFR panel is IFR currency. Staying current by flying practice approaches in a SC is a lot cheaper and easier than flying them in a heavier airplane.
Click to expand...

On the other hand one might argue that having instruments will go further into crappy weather and get further into trouble than you would with out having ifr instruments in a cub


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Some people just have different missions Tom. I can't get those Wichita Falls boys with the fancy toys to come play on the Brazos with Tony, Eddie and me. Just pictures of those 2000 foot Red River sand bars. 8)
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I’d rather be cruising along at 200’ underneath the deck than get stuck on top in a Super Cub. While we don’t have to worry about ice along the coast in Tx, we have our fair share of fog and low ceilings. Learning the weather patterns and warning signs goes a long way towards knowing when to shut it down.

Other thing, what’s the life expectancy of modern IFR equipment in a drafty, unsealed airplane? Sure seems like the avionics will have issues in a hurry compared to a weathertight IFR plane.
 
Loss of all visual reference

Since experts say that VMC into IMC conditions is one of the leading causes of death in GA
Click to expand...



If you lose all visual reference, without any instrumentation you will probably be passing 30deg of bank within 20-30 seconds entering a spiral dive and almost certainly to the right.

With some significant practice, an altimeter, a stopwatch and a serviceable turn and bank, you could maintain height and set up a Rate 1 turn and reverse your direction in 60 seconds.

With any type of artificial horizon, life would be a whole lot easier and with minimal practice (even on a flight sim program) you could maintain straight and level and consider your options and initiate a 30deg/45deq turn to reverse your direction if necessary.

It is likely that you will lose visual reference at some point, life is like that, best to have a plan for when you do.

Planning IFR flight is a whole new area, this is about just having the tool in your box when you need it.

Kind regards

Stew
 
Stew said:
If you lose all visual reference, without any instrumentation you will probably be passing 30deg of bank within 20-30 seconds entering a spiral dive and almost certainly to the right.

With some significant practice, an altimeter, a stopwatch and a serviceable turn and bank, you could maintain height and set up a Rate 1 turn and reverse your direction in 60 seconds.

With any type of artificial horizon, life would be a whole lot easier and with minimal practice (even on a flight sim program) you could maintain straight and level and consider your options and initiate a 30deg/45deq turn to reverse your direction if necessary.

It is likely that you will lose visual reference at some point, life is like that, best to have a plan for when you do.

Planning IFR flight is a whole new area, this is about just having the tool in your box when you need it.

Kind regards

Stew
Click to expand...
Couldn’t agree more. It’s the reason for buying a Dynon D3. Mine should be here in the next few days.
 
mvivion said:
The only STCs for Dynon equipment is for the various 172s. The D-3 shown in that video isn't approved for anything....it's portable.

The new, be all, do all Dynon Skyview system starts at $10 K and goes up rapidly if you actually want anything other than a PFD. $23 K or so for the IFR version.....again, only STC'd in 172, with pending approval for Bonanza. Looks to be a very nice system, but bring $$$.

And, I don't know what the weights are for those, but when Aviat started installing Garmin G-600 in some Huskys, I asked how much weight was saved, and their response was that it's actually heavier than conventional IFR setup. Don't know how much or why, but..... So, I'd verify weights before I went there. Bear in mind that a PFD requires a backup for IFR (and maybe for VFR). That can be steam gauges or another PFD. Again, bring $$$

MTV
Click to expand...

The Dynon STC covers a lot more planes than the 172, but I don’t see the PA-18 yet. Might not be an issue for a CAR3 aircraft. http://www.dynonavionics.com/retrofit/downloads/EAA-STC-AML-SA04075CH.pdf


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