New tailwheel pilot

In June of 2017 I got my Tailwheel endorsement and didn't rack up a whole lot of hours (15ish) over about a month. Now fast forward a year and some odd months to this past Saturday.... I finally rented and got back in the dreaded Champ and did a checkout with a different instructor. Although both these instructors taught the 2-point landing virtually the same. The way they taught the 3-point landing seemed worlds apart.

The first instructor I flew with taught the 3-point in a way that seemed to be more similar to a normal landing in a trike. A normal roundout power cut about 10 feet above the ground finally transitioning to the 3-point attitude (after quite a float down the runway) for the touchdown.

The second instructor scared me when he told me to begin the roundout. Power cut we were about 20-30 feet above the runway(very unnatural feeling for a prominent tricycle gear pilot). Anyways, we didn't stay in the roundout for long as it was a continuous transition to a high 3-point attitude. Now at touchdown I was very pleased at how soft and short the landing was.

Now having learned this new method for the 3-point landing. What can somebody tell me about their method to the 3-point landing if it resembles either of these? Is there a situation to choose one over the other? Im really just looking for some insight from people who have far more experience and can lend some good information.

Also, I want to build time in the champ and eventually move into something for more of a Backcountry setting. I am in Northwestern MN and aside from taking my buddies up for a joy ride...Does anyone have any good insight for what a guy can go do with a Champ that I rent. Maybe just sticking to the joy rides until a move into something a little more robust. I feel like I'm asking a lot, but anything would help. thanks.

Try a higher glide without power and let gavity bring you in. I find a flatter approach with power makes it harder to do a good landing

Glenn

Champs are great planes. You can do bunches with them... but first fly her for 100 hours before you get out in the brush. You need to know the plane very well, and what different weights will do for the plane.

cubdriver2 said:

Try a higher glide without power and let gavity bring you in. I find a flatter approach with power makes it harder to do a good landing

Glenn

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I agree. I fly a very steep low power approach with a quick flare. My tail wheel is always low but not touching until last second, especialy in rough terrain. This teqnique is also nice so you dont have a long float fighting a crosswind for a long way.

Novels can be written, but the basic plot line for a short, sweet landing might go like this:

1. Stabilize your approach as early as practical
2. As slow as you can go under the circumstances is better
3. The backside of the power curve can be your friend
4. Practice brings enlightenment
5. When in doubt, don't--better another try than a final try

Youngcub, where is your trim set for your approach and subsequent touchdown?

Youngcub, I was taught to land a taildragger by using no power, gliding to touchdown from stabilized approach. Sixty-two years later, mostly all float-flying in short spaces, mostly from sentiment of those earlier memories, I do the same thing, acknowledging that power can achieve wonderful landings although dragging with power over hostile terrain is less safe. "You're dragging, Dad," is the usual refrain from my son, a retired corporate chief pilot, so he may think the same thing.

I see folks who successfully start an early flare. The more common technique is to keep the nose down until just a few feet above the runway, then flare.

I agree with all the above. Practice power off approaches at constant airspeed. Avoid "dragging it in." Get good at slow flight, and learn approaches at slower than 60. Practice in crosswinds. Stay on airports until 100 pattern hours = 1000 landings, minimum.

1934A said:

Youngcub, where is your trim set for your approach and subsequent touchdown?

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Neutral

Try a couple landings with your trim set almost all the way nose up. This will give you more elevator to work with, you'll be holding the stick forward as you're coming in, then just let it come back as you start your flare, as you get slower and slower as close to the ground as you can hold it, you'll settle to the ground without hardly realizing it. I always fly my approach at idle if I'm making a three point landing. Take it for what it's worth....

He's in a Champ, fixed stabilizer

Glenn

I, like King Brown was taught to close the throttle when abeam the landing spot. Only pushing up the throttle a couple of times during the approach to "clear" the engine. Adjust the size of your traffic pattern depending on the wind conditions. When you use any amount of power during the approach you will find that your feel of the plane in pitch will drastically change when you close the throttle to land. If you close the throttle for the entire approach, your pitch feel and control will be stable. You will only need to compensate for winds and runway alignment.

Sometime during the 60s instructors started drifting away from the old school method by teaching the drag it around the pattern method. This changed the size of the patterns to a point where you couldn't make the field at all if the engine should stop running which was the primary reason for method which I described. As the airplane which you fly get bigger and heavier you will need to make adjustments to your power usage. In the meantime you are flying a Champ, learn to let the airplane do the flying with only your guidance to the destination. Pretend that the engine stops working on every landing. Fly the plane, not the engine.

I learned to fly in a 65 hp Aeronca 7AC. It taught me how to stay out of trouble and prepared me to gradually work my way up to higher performing flying machines. Both of your instructors need to learn how to fly an airplane's wing.

skywagon8a said:

I, like King Brown was taught to close the throttle when abeam the landing spot. Only pushing up the throttle a couple of times during the approach to "clear" the engine. Adjust the size of your traffic pattern depending on the wind conditions. When you use any amount of power during the approach you will find that your feel of the plane in pitch will drastically change when you close the throttle to land. If you close the throttle for the entire approach, your pitch feel and control will be stable. You will only need to compensate for winds and runway alignment.

Sometime during the 60s instructors started drifting away from the old school method by teaching the drag it around the pattern method. This changed the size of the patterns to a point where you couldn't make the field at all if the engine should stop running which was the primary reason for method which I described. As the airplane which you fly get bigger and heavier you will need to make adjustments to your power usage. In the meantime you are flying a Champ, learn to let the airplane do the flying with only your guidance to the destination. Pretend that the engine stops working on every landing. Fly the plane, not the engine.

I learned to fly in a 65 hp Aeronca 7AC. It taught me how to stay out of trouble and prepared me to gradually work my way up to higher performing flying machines. Both of your instructors need to learn how to fly an airplane's wing.

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I learned in a 65 HP Chief and was taught the same way. Then went on to Champs, T Crafts, and Cubs and flew them all the same way. Don't imagine there are many old school type instructors around any more.

Same here, I fly a L-4 out of Hampton 7B3. Carb heat on at mid field, power off a beam the numbers, 6 turns back (nose up) on the trim, turn to base, line it up. To high slip, to low a little power to get back on the glide. Taught by an old school instructor.

Confusius say, gravity always reliable, engine, not so much!

Glenn

Okay, so I am also still figuring it all out in a PA-12. Three points are great and wheels are fun too. When should each be used in terms of crosswinds and off airport? I hear wheels are for high crosswind and off airport. I can say I read a great post a few weeks back and definitely recommend wheelies (single wheel and dual), duck wags, S turns while taxiing, power off, full flap, no-flap and other fun stuff to improve your skill and feel of the plane. I have had five instructors, on purpose, and each one has taught me something new. I am learning in Alaska and have seen some amazing pilots that know their plane and would love to be a tenth as good as they are.


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I do both on every landing. What your instructors taught you is great for getting the airplane down safe. Our folks taught us to walk, but now we can also jump, skip, run, and go backwards (on a good day). I land from a steep low power approach with a quick flare (and slip if a good x wind). I land tail low (almost full 3 point) and bring the tail up just far enough to eliminate or reduce any mechanical (no floating) bounce. This style approach makes x wind an almost non event because of the very short of time being vulnerable. Also landing on centerline teaches you to track straight and spot land. In a strong x wind i always land and take off on the downwind side of the runway. This type of approach and landing also sets you up for landing over obsticals. Anyway, im not an instructor just what works for me. I found some good videos once. Ill try to post them if i can find them.
One other thing i do unorthadox is carry a bit of forward trim. That way in off field scenarios, if the tail flies up on you, you are already still holding back pressure, not trying to go from stick forward to stick back. Anyway just my $.02.

https://youtu.be/J4NnmbbSizQ
https://youtu.be/CrPJac80W9Y

Heres a couple good videos anyway.

I have been flying a cub for about three years and only landed with power off if I was coming in too hot. After reading this thread I went up this morning and used the techniques described above, and it really worked well. When landing on 15 I can divert to an open field if the engine quits, but coming in on 33 there are few options for me. I am excited to practice power off landings and get some skill in hitting the mark without having to drag it in, especially in open fields without familiar reference points. The idea of an engine out during landing has been in the back of my mind, but while training on a 172 and training for my tail wheel endorsement I was taught to keep some power in on final, so it became habit, especially since it was much easier to hit the numbers by using some power. It is time for me to step it up a notch.

Congratulations Rich, you have moved up a notch over your instructors who apparently never really learned how to fly.

I flew with my roommate today, before the snow hit up here in ND. Great flight... and on my way back the Favored runway was 13 which is pavement (120@3)
As a new tailwheel pilot as of last year and with 1 hour of landing practice this year(on grass). I decided for the straight in landing on 17 which is grass and thats what I felt comfortable with. The traffic pattern had 2 planes using paved. I opted for the extended base and final to allow separation. My approach ended up being shallow with too much forward speed. I understand my mistake and how to correct... but My question is... is there a level of disrespect with taking off or landing on a non-favored runway? (Even with great communication)

Thanks to all that have responded to my original post. Im sorry if I keep asking for more... just a newer pilot here with a couple questions


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Once it is your turn to land then you do whatever it takes to make a safe landing!!!(everybody else is your bitch) That would include landing on taxiway, infield grass, gravel shoulder, or with tailwind due to sun. It is not that hard to work around a single aircraft that may want a different runway. Once you get proficient and feel safe then you can take a less preferred, but SAFE runway. We have a busy airport dirt and tar strips with lots of new pilots training, helicopters, salty old bush pilots, 747 pattern pilots, pilots that don't talk on radio, and a nonstandard pattern. I would not expect a new taildragger pilot to take any wind on the tail just to avoid the sun, or avoid long taxi, but, that is what most all the seasoned pilots do. The bottom line is do what you need to do to get er done!!! When you get to be a old taildragger pilot just remember back when you knew nothing and some new guy comes in and screws up the pattern. I just smile and think "ya I have done that".
DENNY

At the risk of being ostracized, I have a different take on all of this... honestly when I am flying my Cub or nearly any other SEL airplane I reduce the power to idle abem the threshold and target the touch down zone. If I screw up I add a little power or perhaps slip to cover my error.. doesn't happen much..:smile:

on the other hand ... when I'm instructing I require my students to "initially" fly a "stabilized" approach. 1000agl on downwind, 800agl/80mph abeam threshold, 600agl/70mph 45 from the threshold, 400agl/65mph turning final, 55mph over the fence.. on final target a touchdown marker.. in a timely fashion, flare and power completely off after the fence..land 3 point..

Each of these points is a gate, the student learns at every gate. If you pull the power abeam and dead stick to the runway you have one gate, or one learning point. It takes a lot of trips around the pattern to learn with one learn point.. as a student progresses they learn how to manage the pattern under almost all situations...

I've gone round and round with many of the old sages about the difference between teaching and flying... some understand it ..some don't...

I use a power on approach until landing, wheel landing and three point it gives me much better control and will allow for a shorter landing, 1400-1600 rpm adjust as needed (I seldom 3 point because a wheel or tail low landing gives you so much more). I prefer a steep approach, you can do it even with power on, it just takes practice (pitch for speed, power for elevation). I know, and understand, the practice of a power off approach is important, in a typical one hour cross country flight at 1,000 ft AGL 99 percent of the time you would not make it to a runway unless one was on your path. So my advice to young pilots is based on how to pick a good crash site. Stay calm, do checklist, best glide, and aim for the best color you can find, don't look for a specific spot just color. This time of year for us Gray = sand, shale, dry grass, or lichen Red = 1-2 ft high bush, Yellow 4-8 ft bush or aspen, Light green grass is usually very wet. dark green grass is usually good. Dark green trees are hard all the time. Once you find a good color spot to crash, get to it. Then just set in in as slow as possible and don't worry about hurting the plane. Once down call the insurance company and tell them the location of their plane, IA's need to the work. The best thing about teaching people to do a power off approach is they tend not to do a 747 pattern!!! A trick for 3 point (or any type) is set up straight in the plane with back straight, put a mark on wind screen right at the top of the cowl. When you flare, sit up straight, if the cowl is above the mark it will be tail first, if below it will be a wheel landing, if on the mark a 3 point. Works power off or power on. The big thing is to keep learning!! Once you figure out how to do one type of landing, learn another, then another, never stop trying to learn something new.
DENNY

I have a little meneuver i like to do to challenge my cabilities (coordination). If anyone is actualy interested i will elaberate. When i fly with someone, i do not care if they get close to a stall attitude. Even low level. What scares me is when they are uncoordinated. Thats when the stall/spin happens unknowingly.

Cub Special Ed said:

I have a little meneuver i like to do to challenge my cabilities (coordination). If anyone is actualy interested i will elaberate. When i fly with someone, i do not care if they get close to a stall attitude. Even low level. What scares me is when they are uncoordinated. Thats when the stall/spin happens unknowingly.

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Okay, I am curious as I do struggle a bit with coordinated flight. I am conscious of it but I don’t quite have that feel yet.



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Dutch rolls are a good exercise to mate your ars to a new seat

Glenn

Cub Special Ed said:

I have a little meneuver i like to do to challenge my cabilities (coordination). If anyone is actualy interested i will elaberate. When i fly with someone, i do not care if they get close to a stall attitude. Even low level. What scares me is when they are uncoordinated. Thats when the stall/spin happens unknowingly.

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Rumor has it uncoordinated turns make the Gunner shoot better. Not sure if it's just psychological or plain fear that does it.

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PA-12 on Baumanns said:

Okay, I am curious as I do struggle a bit with coordinated flight. I am conscious of it but I don’t quite have that feel yet.

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On wheels or on your floats? If on floats, do you have a ventral fin? If not, put one on.

I want to thank everybody for this fantastic thread. I'm new to my SC, with 90 wheel landings so far, trying to get a sense of how to do this well. I have been coming in fast (75 on final and over the numbers) with neutral trim and no flaps. Lots of floating involved with this, so I am avoiding crosswind days so far. My long term goal is short landings, but that can wait.

I'm full of questions at this stage and I need opinions! If I'm going to trim nose up, how many turns should I use in a SC? What's a good recommended speed over the numbers? Until I get more experience should I focus on coming in with power or not? I'd also really like to hear more stories of how everyone else handles gusty crosswinds before and after touchdown. I also have never heard anybody here or on youtube talk about the way the rudder control feels different before and after tailwheel touchdown, but it makes me feel uneasy. How do you know when it's OK to use brakes? When should I start adding flap landings to what I'm doing?