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New tailwheel pilot

Dutch rolls are a good exercise to mate your ars to a new seat

Glenn

A old cropduster introduced me to dutch rolls... i think one ptoblem some have with xwind landings is that coordinated flight is drummed into our training and the moment we apply opposite input the brain overloads with “ this dont feel right”


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The one single problem I always run into with modern day
taught pilots is horrible coordinated turns from DEAD feet.
Their idea of the centerline in your crotch, is compleatly different than mine. Drifting and skidding all over the place and overcontroling the ailerons in gusty wind drives
me whaco........ Anyone taught to fly on conventional gear
Always seam to have ALOT better flying technique in our assessment over the years. I am with Glen the moment
I see this I am having them introduced to Dutch Rolls pronto. Probably to old fashioned but cant imagine a pilot
With 40hrs TT not being able to land their airplane with NO
power from pattern altitude. Omg.
E
 
I want to thank everybody for this fantastic thread. I'm new to my SC, with 90 wheel landings so far, trying to get a sense of how to do this well. I have been coming in fast (75 on final and over the numbers) with neutral trim and no flaps. Lots of floating involved with this, so I am avoiding crosswind days so far. My long term goal is short landings, but that can wait.

I'm full of questions at this stage and I need opinions! If I'm going to trim nose up, how many turns should I use in a SC? What's a good recommended speed over the numbers? Until I get more experience should I focus on coming in with power or not? I'd also really like to hear more stories of how everyone else handles gusty crosswinds before and after touchdown. I also have never heard anybody here or on youtube talk about the way the rudder control feels different before and after tailwheel touchdown, but it makes me feel uneasy. How do you know when it's OK to use brakes? When should I start adding flap landings to what I'm doing?

A couple of ideas (and an encyclopedia could be written on your excellent questions).

First, learn to fly slow. Real slow. Just above stall. Practice descents at altitude in different attitudes. Without power. With power. Then start practicing three point landings with no float. With and without flaps. With and without power. With and without wind on your nose when landing. Get comfortable in all the varieties as landings come in all varieties. The only cardinal rule is that a stable final approach usually leads to a decent landing. There is no shame in going around, ever.

Next, start adding crosswinds. Your senses will have memorized what a slow, stable approach feels like and you will add a wee bit of airspeed -- but not much -- for the wind. Make the corrections for the crosswind and hold them in. You will be making full deflections with your hands and feet when the air is tossy. Little bursts of power become your friend. But you can still land slow and with full control. And once all three are planted with no float hold full deflections and carefully brake. I am of the school that the slower you can land, the less damage you can do.....
 
With Special Ed casting so many pearls before us, I almost missed one. Using a little too much forward trim takes the slop out of the elevator circuit or stick base. You can play around what used to be the neutral point without the overcontrol that results from banging against the edges of the slop. I discovered this trying to manage the first few moments of a sailplane tow. There isn't enough airspeed to feel the edges, so I run the trim fwd and pull with my fingertips.
 
I want to thank everybody for this fantastic thread. I'm new to my SC, with 90 wheel landings so far, trying to get a sense of how to do this well. I have been coming in fast (75 on final and over the numbers) with neutral trim and no flaps. Lots of floating involved with this, so I am avoiding crosswind days so far. My long term goal is short landings, but that can wait.

I'm full of questions at this stage and I need opinions! If I'm going to trim nose up, how many turns should I use in a SC? What's a good recommended speed over the numbers? Until I get more experience should I focus on coming in with power or not? I'd also really like to hear more stories of how everyone else handles gusty crosswinds before and after touchdown. I also have never heard anybody here or on youtube talk about the way the rudder control feels different before and after tailwheel touchdown, but it makes me feel uneasy. How do you know when it's OK to use brakes? When should I start adding flap landings to what I'm doing?

First, you need to slow down on final. 75 is just goofy fast. As JP suggested, do some air work, flying the airplane right at minimum controllable airspeed, till you get a good feel for slow flight. I’m not suggesting you fly final at that slow a speed, the point of this and lots of stalls is to give you a feel for the plane.

Second, USE those flaps. You need to be proficient with and without, but initially you want to be slow, till you get a feel for the evolution of landing. Depending on your comfort level, 55 or so indicated on SHORT final should work fine. With flaps there won’t be much float. Some folks like to roll in some nose down trim on short final. Flare, kill any power, touch with the tail an inch or so off the surface, relax the back pressure you were holding against nose down trim, and the plane will naturally roll up onto the mains. Stick just a bit forward to hold the tail up.

Dont mess with brakes much till you’re really proficient with these tail low wheel landings. Then EASE your way into gentle braking. Believe me, if you touch down at MCA you won’t need much braking unless you’re REALLY somewhere sketchy.

Only time I land with half or no flaps is in GUSTY crosswinds. Steady crosswinds don’t really require anything special. GUSTY requires a bit of extra speed and less flap helps.

Finally, the difference in stall speed between flap and no flap in a cub isn’t huge. So even no flap approaches neednt be at 75.

Get a lot of slow flight under your belt FIRST, all configutations, THEN work on landings.

MTV
 
Years ago, Bill White of insurance fame wrote a very good article on how to wheel land a skywagon.

This technique is not necessarily gospel, but it's sure a good place to start.
IMHO the technique works well in other airplanes, if you adjust the speeds mentioned appropriately.
He suggests 60 knots (70 mph) on final, I'd say knock off at least 10 mph for a cub.
It's a 2 page article, but here is the crux of it:

wheel landings.jpg
 

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Okay, I am curious as I do struggle a bit with coordinated flight. I am conscious of it but I don’t quite have that feel yet.



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What i do, and i suspect it will probably catch flack is: start out in slow flight, then with out touching the power, drop nose to build a little speed, then pitch up and roll into a steep bank and make a 180° turn. If you are uncoordinted or in too shallow of a bank youll never make a 180° reversel. As others have said, dutch roll the heck out of it first. Not worried about airspeed and altitude (to the extent you dont smack the ground). Just coordination. If you do it right and smooth you wont pull any more than a slight g on the round out. Basicaly a modified low power canyon turn or wingover. Helps me keep up on flying the wing and proper use of my feet. And its fun. On a flapped plane, start with one notch and grab the second notch when you need to drop the nose about mid turn. This works real well on my dads cherokee. Ps: only 2 requirements to complete this meneuver, make it 180° and dont die!

Disclaimer: Im not an instructor nor is this instruction.
 
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I would agree with the others, you need to slow down. Go up to 3-4 grand AGL and get a feel for how and when the plane stalls with full flaps. Should be around 40 mph give or take. Stay up high and do some slow flight 10 mph above stall speed. Do this every time you fly for 5-10 min and you will feel much better about slowing down. I also recommend spin training if you have not done so yet!!
For trim I would recommend simply trim for airspeed. keep it simple as you turn base then final don't use your stick to slow down just roll back the trim you need to reach the airspeed you want. I usually use lots if not full nose up trim myself, but, that is not what you need at this time.
As far as when to use brakes. I strongly advise to use them whenever you need them on both takeoff and landing. I would always have my heels over the pedal on both takeoff and landing. A cub is very forgiving, but if the rudder is not doing the job a quick stab on the brake will keep you going straight. Using brakes to help with directional control should be second nature when you start off runway operations. Things that will get you in trouble with the brakes is getting on both brakes hard to try to stop short. Alternate the pressure from one side to the other if you are hitting them hard it will actually wag your tail a bit when you do it right, and it is very hard to flip doing that. The other thing is try not to lock a brake and pivot the plane on bushwheels!! This is a great way to scrub off rubber on tar and cut the tire on rocks/shale/stubble. As Mike pointed out when you slow you landing down your really won't need much braking.
Spin training gave me the confidence to properly stall and slow my aircraft down. I would say it was the most helpful thing I did for STOL operations.
DENNY
 
For a new pilot I really enjoyed this string on landing tail draggers. Started by the master himself (Bill Rusk). Lots of good info. I had to read it a couple of times. Good advice on practice. Lots of things I had never done after about 70hours, the next weekend new awesome CFI and we did all of it.

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?38995-How-to-set-up-a-groundloop


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You'd love this discussion then, they don't number their posts but about half way down they get into rudder usage.
https://backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/mountain-flying-clinic-debrief-22397


I've done some pretty radical flying when hunting coyotes, but found out that kind of flying is best when done alone.

Yep. Good thread. Ive never been a fan of social media, but because of places like these, i guess people who are not normaly in our realm of flying are learning something. Like "mabe coordination is more important than i thought, especialy in the pattern".
 
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