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Thread: ADS B Out and search and rescue

  1. #41
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    You've never been to Alaska have you?

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  2. #42

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    The government can use forensic radar analysis to find lost airplanes. ADS-B will make it easier. The problem with ADS-B is that anyone can track you. I didn't agree to broadcast my flight tracks publicly. In fact I signed up with the FAA to keep my tracks private. They can't do it. Until the government fixes that I'll keep my circuit breaker in reach.
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    You've never been to Alaska have you?

    Web
    Web, in the South we have the old, "Y'all ain't from around here are you? routine. Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of "You don't know Alaska" as well.

    I don't know your age, but I would guess since you are still working, I flew in Alaska before you could legally buy alcohol, maybe earlier. I flew there in college in a Part 135 ops and I've flown there Part 91 recreationally and professionally including several airplane deliveries both wheel and amphibious. So please I won't if you won't give the "Y'all ain't from around here" routine.

    To put a finer point, yes Alaska is remote, challenging and very often very cold. It is also surrounded by an ADIZ system that can detect a mouse fart at 40 yards. You might want to think about the fact that for instance there is more radar coverage in the polar regions of the world than the Indian Ocean. (You get a discrete squawk crossing over Greenland for instance) You see, there was a time when the natural avenue of attack from the Russians was polar and yes, most those systems are still operational because because believe me, the TU-95's even today, don't call up and ask Anchorage Center for a discrete squak on the thunder runs. If they can get within 12 miles of the shoreline, they will because that is their job, to find out what we got. So what do you think we have?

    Years ago a Beech Baron crashed after radar service had been terminated from Bay Approach (now NorCal) going into Concord, CA just east of SFO. The NTSB wanted a radar track and you know where they found it? From an AWACS E-3 800 miles west over the Pacific. If you go looking, you'll find it. Enough said.
    Last edited by GeeBee; 01-21-2019 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Web, in the South we have the old, "Y'all ain't from around here are you? routine. Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of "You don't know Alaska" as well.

    I don't know your age, but I would guess since you are still working, I flew in Alaska before you could legally buy alcohol, maybe earlier. I flew there in college in a Part 135 ops and I've flown there Part 91 recreationally and professionally including several airplane deliveries both wheel and amphibious. So please I won't if you won't give the "Y'all ain't from around here" routine.

    To put a finer point, yes Alaska is remote, challenging and very often very cold. It is also surrounded by an ADIZ system that can detect a mouse fart at 40 yards. You might want to think about the fact that for instance there is more radar coverage in the polar regions of the world than the Indian Ocean. (You get a discrete squawk crossing over Greenland for instance) You see, there was a time when the natural avenue of attack from the Russians was polar and yes, most those systems are still operational because because believe me, the TU-95's even today, don't call up and ask Anchorage Center for a discrete squak on the thunder runs. If they can get within 12 miles of the shoreline, they will because that is their job, to find out what we got. So what do you think we have?

    Years ago a Beech Baron crashed after radar service had been terminated from Bay Approach (now NorCal) going into Concord, CA just east of SFO. The NTSB wanted a radar track and you know where they found it? From an AWACS E-3 800 miles west over the Pacific. If you go looking, you'll find it. Enough said.
    Yep, that's why a couple of pretty famous Congressmen went missing and have never been found.....in Alaska. And, numerous others, for that matter. Those fancy radars you described point away from Alaska for the most part. And, the AF isn't wont to share that data in any case....at least not to citizens or companies who'd like to track people.

    Your argument would suggest that the AF should be able to pin point every accident/incident that occurs in Alaska, yet that's not the case, and yes, RCC does talk to those folks.

    MTV

  5. #45
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Enough thread drift on this. Back to ADS-B.

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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Yep, that's why a couple of pretty famous Congressmen went missing and have never been found.....in Alaska. And, numerous others, for that matter. Those fancy radars you described point away from Alaska for the most part. And, the AF isn't wont to share that data in any case....at least not to citizens or companies who'd like to track people.

    Your argument would suggest that the AF should be able to pin point every accident/incident that occurs in Alaska, yet that's not the case, and yes, RCC does talk to those folks.

    MTV
    The discussion was tracking an airplane to an airport, especially in the case of a violation. Not to a mountain crash site to whit no aircraft would or could land. Further I pointed to the use of both radar and video evidence. Unlikely video will be at a mountain crash site. I can for instance right now find three outdoor web cams of Barrow and the horizon around.
    Last edited by GeeBee; 01-21-2019 at 06:27 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    The discussion was tracking an airplane to an airport, especially in the case of a violation. Not to a mountain crash site to whit no aircraft would or could land. Further I pointed to the use of both radar and video evidence. Unlikely video will be at a mountain crash site. I can for instance right now find three outdoor web cams of Barrow and the horizon around.
    But, if you Uber Radar can track an airplane to an airport, it should also be able to track an airplane to a crash site. But again, thoseradars are optimized to search for potentially “hostile” aircraft, not looking for bug smashers cruising around the countryside.

    Point is, a LOT of airplanes go missing in Alaska every year. And it’s not like SAR just checks out their radar track to the crash site.

    Finally, there are a LOT of mountains both in Alaska AND in the Lower 48.

    Frankly, I could care less if anybody is tracking me. That said, I don’t own an airplane to fly to places that will require ADS-B after 2020. So, I’m spending that $ to buy a gas. And, yes, I’m familiar with the traffic feature on ADS-B in. I’ve survived this far looking out the window, and will continue to do so.

    But out worrying about somebody tracking me? Who cares?

    MTV

  8. #48

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    No I did not say "uber radar can track an airplane to an airport. Here is what I said

    " If you have an airspace violation say a class B, and you are a primary target they will track that target to the landing airport, find a video and slam the door. Seen that happen twice."

    My point was you are just a primary target. Once they correlate that target with a video they got you. They simply have to put the 2 and 2 together
    before an ALJ, pointing out the airplane in the video is the only airplane that could have been in the area when you dropped below radar coverage and you're toast. If you appear on that video on a 3000' downwind they don't have to track you to the ground, they got their airplane. You might think you have "rights" and presumption of innocence but you're before an ALJ. Whole different ball game on proof.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I know someone who was investigated for not flying his 40 hrs off before leaving his flight test area. The FAA had checked his Facebook and claimed he was in Florida when he reached his 40 hrs. They determined this off his Flight Aware data from the ADSB out. Turns out the wrong N number was programmed into the ADSB unit for the first 10 hours of the test flights. Had to send them a logbook entry for an oil change at 38.9 hours from a shop on the other side of the country to clear it up. Big Brother might not be watching but he sure has the means.
    If you have ever had the Feds try to goat rope you then you might understand. 5 years of bullshit taught me a lot. Bill Bainbridge and Bob Hoover have similar stories. I think ADS-B is a joke for small airplanes simply crammed down our throats so avionics manufacturers can make a good fat profit and help line AOPA and EAA's pockets. Good 406 ELT and PLBs are what I would rely on to be found in an accident especially having seen how many areas are not covered by ADS-B. Glad I live away from any big metropolitan area and am not required to install this stuff.
    Steve Pierce

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  10. #50

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    We don't have to go far in the news these days to find out how invasive the Federal government can be on an administrative level if they want to get you. The FAA does not have to go far. They have their own network of cameras. Look at this map

    https://avcams.faa.gov

    Now mix in a little ARTCC radar and little ADIZ and you got pretty much a slam dunk. They don't need ADS-B, it just saves some time.
    Last edited by GeeBee; 01-22-2019 at 08:31 AM.

  11. #51

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    Aviation weather cams have nothing to do with surveillance. Those are visual weather tools to help we Alaskans see what's out there waiting for us. ADS-B offers another weather source.

    The tool the government uses to find lost Alaskan planes from what I was told is AWACS. Maybe that's changed lately but I don't think the big Air Force radars are paying any attention to 85mph Cubs flying below 1000' AGL. They have to call in experts to analyze radar tapes and hope they can piece something together. That takes time. I believe that's how they found the Pilatus Porter that crashed in the Ak Range a couple of years ago.

  12. #52
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    Back when I was mud crawling through CAP, we found quite a few aircraft with ARTC NTAPs...it was a labor intensive process, going through fan fold paper printouts to put together a story about the target in question...assuming you picked the right one.....once, when a buddy of mine put his Meyers in the (freezing cold) Great Salt Lake (during a frontal passage snow storm) and was sitting on the tail cone in five feet of water, the FAA didn’t want to get someone out of bed to do it, so the Governor stepped in and demanded quick action.

    Any faster process would be very welcome....

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Aviation weather cams have nothing to do with surveillance. Those are visual weather tools to help we Alaskans see what's out there waiting for us. ADS-B offers another weather source.

    The tool the government uses to find lost Alaskan planes from what I was told is AWACS. Maybe that's changed lately but I don't think the big Air Force radars are paying any attention to 85mph Cubs flying below 1000' AGL. They have to call in experts to analyze radar tapes and hope they can piece something together. That takes time. I believe that's how they found the Pilatus Porter that crashed in the Ak Range a couple of years ago.
    So let me get this straight. Are you saying that if the FAA is looking for evidence that if your airplane involved in a possible violation did land at a given airport, that the weather cam is off limits to the FAA and its investigators?

  14. #54

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    Pretty slim chance the weather cam will help any 'surveillance'. They snap a picture once every ten minutes. Odds are very low any specific activity will be seen.

  15. #55
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The government can use forensic radar analysis to find lost airplanes. ADS-B will make it easier. The problem with ADS-B is that anyone can track you. I didn't agree to broadcast my flight tracks publicly. In fact I signed up with the FAA to keep my tracks private. They can't do it. Until the government fixes that I'll keep my circuit breaker in reach.

    ADS-B Another Damn Surveillance - Bitch
    How long before user fees when the feds know where all the aircraft are in the system? Ya'all know it's coming
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

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    ADS B Out and search and rescue

    A four years ago, Blaze Highlander, a Yute Air Pilot didn’t return from a IO520 break in flight. FAA used the ADSB system to identify his flight track...down in the weeds... he may have caught a wing and cartwheeled into a creek....and had 20% Co in his blood stream...


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    Last edited by Mark_Moyle; 01-23-2019 at 04:44 PM.

  17. #57
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randyk View Post
    Pretty slim chance the weather cam will help any 'surveillance'. They snap a picture once every ten minutes. Odds are very low any specific activity will be seen.
    Actually they record constantly, in most places, maybe not the battery/solar units on mountain tops. But only upload every 10 minutes. They can retrieve any data the FAA asks for. Or NTSB


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  18. #58

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    Well —- there ya go...


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  19. #59
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Unfortunate. http://flash.avweb.com/avwebflash/ne...-232854-1.html


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  20. #60
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    Ain't progress grand!

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    I think satellite based ADSB is the way to go. Hooray for the Canadians..

  22. #62
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    not sure this is proper thread...

    but

    this is back ass-wards....

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ts-drone-line/

    which means that the drone operator will be able to see ADS-B Out-equipped manned aircraft, but pilots won’t be able to see the drones.
    sounds scary... idiots will target real planes... just like with lasers ..

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    not sure this is proper thread...

    but

    this is back ass-wards....

    https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ts-drone-line/

    sounds scary... idiots will target real planes... just like with lasers ..
    YIKES! As usual the FAA has dropped the ball big time with these model airplanes which they call drones. Because they are so easy to fly with modern electronics every yahoo can have one. This DJI company should make this system so that the drone can not enter the 180 second distance. Instead of just showing a colored blip on a screen, the drone's electronics should restrict the drone from flying closer than the 180 second distance. That would be a safe system. Not what they describe in the story.

    This system should be for the protection of the REAL airplane and it's occupants not the drone.
    N1PA
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    All well and good to be able to see ADSB out equipped aircraft, but how about the thousands of non transponder equipped aircraft that fly in the NAS everyday?


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  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    ….. but how about the thousands of non transponder equipped aircraft that fly in the NAS everyday?
    Old geezers, crackpots, and rebels....
    nobody cares about them.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  26. #66
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://www.avweb.com/avionics/adsb/...lert-now-live/


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