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Thread: ADS B Out and search and rescue

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    ADS B Out and search and rescue

    Will having ADS B out be a significant aid for search and rescue operations in the lower 48? From what I’ve read the flight data is sent via satellite, therefore if it’s recorded there should be a record of the flight path.

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    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Yes it would be great for search and rescue.
    Every flight is recorded. I. Have checked my flight ihistory and every movement was captured, and accurate.


    Everyone and anyone can see where you are or have been. Like it or not....
    Ed
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubpilot2 View Post
    Yes it would be great for search and rescue.
    Every flight is recorded. I. Have checked my flight ihistory and every movement was captured, and accurate.


    Everyone and anyone can see where you are or have been. Like it or not....
    And has been used to bust folks for flying when weather didn’t meet minimums...the latest AIA out of Togiak....AWOS and ADS-B data is being used as an enforcement tool to police all airspace. Makes you wonder if asking for a special VRF clearance when viz is at 1/2 mile at the departure point... If I get a ticket from the watchers.....will ATC document the departure authorization?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Moyle View Post
    And has been used to bust folks for flying when weather didn’t meet minimums...the latest AIA out of Togiak....AWOS and ADS-B data is being used as an enforcement tool to police all airspace. Makes you wonder if asking for a special VRF clearance when viz is at 1/2 mile at the departure point... If I get a ticket from the watchers.....will ATC document the departure authorization?


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    They can only bust you if you depart or land in less than VFR conditions and then only upon an "official observation". In flight visibility and cloud clearance is pilot's determination. Once the wheels leave the ground it is your call. So yes, you could get busted but only for departure or landing and only with an official observation. Then again, that is the way it has always been, so nothing new.

    https://www.flyingmag.com/everything...-awos-and-asos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Wood View Post
    Will having ADS B out be a significant aid for search and rescue operations in the lower 48? From what I’ve read the flight data is sent via satellite, therefore if it’s recorded there should be a record of the flight path.
    Not sure what you mean by “flight data is sent via satellite”.

    ADSB is NOT a satellite based system. Your data goes to a gbt, ground based transmitter. I don’t know where the data goes from there. Point is, if you aren’t within range of a GBT, nobody is going to se your data.

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Wood View Post
    Will having ADS B out be a significant aid for search and rescue operations in the lower 48? From what I’ve read the flight data is sent via satellite, therefore if it’s recorded there should be a record of the flight path.
    https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipads...ties/benefits/

    I wouldn't bet my life on it but it may help.

    Re: ADS-B satellite confusion.... https://aireon.com/
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-29-2018 at 02:58 PM.
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    Your best bet to be found quickly is a 406 ELT that transmits a GPS position. That piece is satellite based. ADS-B is currently a ground based system. In the future I expect some satellite involvement.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    ADS B Out and search and rescue

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Your best bet to be found quickly is a 406 ELT that transmits a GPS position. ADS-B is currently a ground based system. In the future I expect some satellite involvement.
    Satellites are up now. Iridium next.

    I agree 406 elt


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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://aireon.com/resources/its-just-ads-b/


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    I still favor Spidertracks but will be interested in Aireon when they get it going. We'll have to wait and see if they offer a service package that makes sense for provate operators. My Spider is in the Cessna and my wife gets irritated when I fly the Cub without any tracking and notifocations. It's interesting how we become so accustomed to real time info and feel so naked without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Satellites are up now. Iridium next.

    I agree 406 elt


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    ADS-B satellite access should be operational to NavCanada this fall. BUT, it only tracks the mode-s transponder transmissions, NOT the 978 MHz systems. Even then, to make it useful to yourself, you need to install a power splitter and another (diversity) transponder antenna on top of your aircraft.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Moyle View Post
    And has been used to bust folks for flying when weather didn’t meet minimums...the latest AIA out of Togiak....AWOS and ADS-B data is being used as an enforcement tool to police all airspace. ...
    The Garmin GDL82 has an "anonymous" mode you can switch on when squawking 1200.
    You might be able to foil any tracking for enforcement purposes....but also would foil tracking your location for SAR purposes.
    Hmm, decisions, decisions...
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    There are two entries for identification, one is your fed assigned code number, which is just your tail number in hexadecimal. This gets reported to faa no matter what. The other is the flight number, which in our case, is usually also the tail number. (I reserve “Bozo Patrol”....) This is the ID that the web sites that report air traffic for the public use. That is the one that gets muted by activating “anonymous” mode. I think....
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    Quote Originally Posted by fobjob View Post
    There are two entries for identification, one is your fed assigned code number, which is just your tail number in hexadecimal. This gets reported to faa no matter what. The other is the flight number, which in our case, is usually also the tail number. (I reserve “Bozo Patrol”....) This is the ID that the web sites that report air traffic for the public use. That is the one that gets muted by activating “anonymous” mode. I think....
    My recollection is that the GDL82 manual says that the unit generates a random ICAO mode S code when in anonymous mode. Anonymous mode only works when 1200 is dialed into transponder and only 978 UAT boxes are allowed an anonymous mode. 1090 ES transponders will always show your N number or flight ID.

    SAR agencies should really like this feature.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    New satellite network will make it impossible for a commercial airplane to vanish
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iridium...-XQ6WZC_oSRg7Q

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    It has always been impossible for them to vanish for some time. Malaysian made the mistake of not buying the ground based software, but let me tell you this. For a long time US airlines keep track of their airplanes almost on a minute by minute basis. Position and altitude are transmitted constantly back to dispatch and this data is rarely looked at unless there is a problem. Most of the time the data goes into the digital file for that aircraft. About 20 years ago we had a Captain that come into the Chief Pilot's office complaining that he was not getting enough fuel out of Anchorage and always landing tight on fuel. We pulled the flights he operated and found out that he was giving a 20 minute circular aerial tour of Denali after take off!

    In addition a dispatcher can at any time query the aircraft for any number of parameters including fuel on board etc. Finally starting in the mid 90's aircraft began reporting faults. One dark night over the North Atlantic I had a flight attendant spray Lysol on her crew rest bunk which activated smoke detectors which got a Master Warning in the flight deck and all sorts of attention from me. It also got dispatch attention and I received a sat call asking if the flight was OK.

    Point is, nothing new here.
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    Not really related, but on the topic of "public" information, you can now pull up as-filed flight plans for any flight (commercial or otherwise) and links to any A/C Reg number, using just your foreflight app. It has been available, but never this easy. I made Polecat Bottoms LLC famous on facebook just the other day this way....

    pb

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    So, does it report to dispatch via ground stations or via satellite? Over ocean or wilderness capability?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fobjob View Post
    So, does it report to dispatch via ground stations or via satellite? Over ocean or wilderness capability?
    Both, depends on the location. If it can transmit via VHF ground station it will, otherwise it goes to sat. Yes over ocean and world wide. I have been at 3 degrees north with full voice and data coverage.

    Let me tell you how much data goes out. I got a message once over the Pacific from maintenance asking me to throttle back to "no more than 65%" on an engine. You see the real time data said we had an issue that if left unchecked would result in an engine shut down. By pulling back, we preserved the engine's operational status and landed with two engines running which saved a shutdown report and a demerit on our ETOPS status.
    Last edited by GeeBee; 01-17-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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    Over at BeechTalk a member got a letter from a law office about a flight. Seems they must have got his info from access to ADSB data. This could get really intrusive when some rich jerk or group of jerks decides to deter anyone from flying over their little kingdom.
    https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/vie...p?f=7&t=162469
    You can't get there from here. You have to go over yonder and start from there.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I know someone who was investigated for not flying his 40 hrs off before leaving his flight test area. The FAA had checked his Facebook and claimed he was in Florida when he reached his 40 hrs. They determined this off his Flight Aware data from the ADSB out. Turns out the wrong N number was programmed into the ADSB unit for the first 10 hours of the test flights. Had to send them a logbook entry for an oil change at 38.9 hours from a shop on the other side of the country to clear it up. Big Brother might not be watching but he sure has the means.
    Steve Pierce

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    Clearly an experimental must have electrical issues that prevented the ads-b from working properly. Nothing in the regs says 40 ads-b hours!

    It's hard to believe the FAA would pay any attention to accumulated time for enforcement reasons. Airspace violations, yes.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Clearly an experimental must have electrical issues that prevented the ads-b from working properly. Nothing in the regs says 40 ads-b hours!

    It's hard to believe the FAA would pay any attention to accumulated time for enforcement reasons. Airspace violations, yes.
    All it takes is one inspector with a bur up his but.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I know someone who was investigated for not flying his 40 hrs off before leaving his flight test area. The FAA had checked his Facebook and claimed he was in Florida when he reached his 40 hrs. They determined this off his Flight Aware data from the ADSB out. Turns out the wrong N number was programmed into the ADSB unit for the first 10 hours of the test flights. Had to send them a logbook entry for an oil change at 38.9 hours from a shop on the other side of the country to clear it up. Big Brother might not be watching but he sure has the means.
    This sort of tracking has been happening long before internet was invented. I once received an airways use bill from a small country in the Caribbean for my "Gulfstream N45P". That N number was on my T-50 which hadn't been out of Massachusetts for years. I also received a fuel bill from the midwest for the same N number, for jet fuel claiming it went in my MU-2 and another from Florida for a sales tax. I was under the impression that people were using random N numbers for nefarious reasons. For some reason they chose my number on several different occasions.
    N1PA
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NunavutPA-12 View Post
    This is what push-pull breakers were made for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    This is what push-pull breakers were made for.

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    Most newer jets have the C/B's located out of reach of the pilot. Airbus puts them below the flight deck.

  29. #29
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Most newer jets have the C/B's located out of reach of the pilot. Airbus puts them below the flight deck.
    That's funny! Every install I do, someone always asks where the breakers are.

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    You've got to have a plan for when your wires get hot

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    I’ve always said if I build an experimental, it’s gonna have the tail number from Elvis’s jet on it. No paperwork, no electrical, no nothing.

    This is is just adding fuel to that fire.
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  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    That's funny! Every install I do, someone always asks where the breakers are.

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    Think about this. What is the purpose of a C/B? Why would it pop? Do you really want to reset it? Here is the thing. You can easily overload a house circuit and pop the breaker. Let it cool and reset. However an aviation circuit properly designed should never overload unless.....there is a short or the component it powers is overloaded. Now with that short, do you really want to reset unless a greater emergency exists? Equally so, would you reset a breaker on a fuel system component such as a valve or pump? Finally since many C/B are "trip free" it is easy to brush against them say with a bag and trip them accidentally. You push in on many aviation trip free breakers and they will release. This feature by the way caused a gear up landing of a LOT Boeing 767 in Warsaw.

    When I am airborne and a C/B trips, I leave it alone until I am on the ground and can investigate the reason for the trip.

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    The purpose? To pull the ADS-B breaker. Oh... I mean to reset the ADS-B breaker when it occasionally pops.
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  34. #34
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Think about this. What is the purpose of a C/B? Why would it pop? Do you really want to reset it? Here is the thing. You can easily overload a house circuit and pop the breaker. Let it cool and reset. However an aviation circuit properly designed should never overload unless.....there is a short or the component it powers is overloaded. Now with that short, do you really want to reset unless a greater emergency exists? Equally so, would you reset a breaker on a fuel system component such as a valve or pump? Finally since many C/B are "trip free" it is easy to brush against them say with a bag and trip them accidentally. You push in on many aviation trip free breakers and they will release. This feature by the way caused a gear up landing of a LOT Boeing 767 in Warsaw.

    When I am airborne and a C/B trips, I leave it alone until I am on the ground and can investigate the reason for the trip.
    It was a joke. See post #33. Most people up here don't care to be tracked. Period. Not by friends, neighbors, curious computer nerds, and especially not by big brother. So, when you clear the ANC airspace and pull the breaker, you can go on about your business. Seriously doubt anyone will pay attention to one Cub or 185 out of 100 to 125 flying into/out of the area. If there's an emergency, use your ELT and sat phone.

    For the technical answer, the circuit breaker is installed to protect a wire NOT a component. If properly sized and installed, it will trip open when the current flow through it exceeds the rating of the breaker. Nothing more.

    Terminology: push only refers to a breaker that has no knob on it to grasp and manually trip it. Best example is the classic 'Cessna' breaker. Push-pull breakers or switch breakers have a knob or toggle to grasp and manually trip. See the Potter-Brumfeld W23 and Klixon 7274 breakers and the Potter-Brumfeld W31 switch breakers. Trip free breakers are designed so that they will not be able to be reset if the over current condition still exists. Most aircraft breakers are considered to be trip free. Certain breakers are not trip free in design and can be manually held closed all the way up to the wire burning. This type should only be used when called out by the manufacturer (or STC holder) but in the right place they can let you sacrifice some burnt wires for a safe return or landing.

    Even with a trip free breaker installed, you can get a little time out of a circuit in some cases. Say you have a hydraulic or fuel pump that you MUST get working. When the breaker pops, give it 30 seconds to a minute and reset it and try it again. The time between resets should allow the breaker to cool enough to re engage for a time. Remember: a properly sized and installed breaker WILL NOT allow the wire to burn. Burnt wiring comes from other causes. On small aircraft I regularly see breakers, of all types, that fail to trip with rated load due to mild corrosion of the contacts. These cases are on breakers 15+ years old and aircraft used around salt water. As the contacts of the breaker start to corroded together, normal current flow is not interrupted but they will not release when overloaded. Makes for bad smells and excited aircrew.

    As for inadvertent tripping, older breakers that randomly trip or any breaker that trips when 'brushed' against should be replaced. Never reuse old breakers (don't get cheap with breakers when installing a $3000 system). And using push-pull or switch breakers allows you to isolate individual systems without having to shut down your master circuit.

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  35. #35

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    Again, I say "unless a greater emergency exists" and there is little in this world that constitute that point. Hydraulic pump? Extend the gear manually, land flaps up. Fuel pump? Even a Boeing will gravity feed up to 30K. If you "ranged out" due to an inoperative pump you have either an improperly designed system or you failed to verify the feed before ranging out. Make no mistake I would have to be in deep, I mean really deep do-do to reset a fuel pump c/b unless you want to be a TWA 800. I've actually seen those submersible pumps arc at the lead on the bench. You got to be nuts to reset a fuel pump c/b without serious problems.

    C/B do protect the wire, but the thermal runaway comes from somewhere and that somewhere is excessive current through the wire. That usually comes as a result of the appliance itself such as a stalled motor, coil or other point of failure that turns the wire into a toaster element.

    I would suggest all review AC120-80 and you might want to read this article that mentions the same document. I would also point out that it is a very, very bad idea to use a C/B as a switch. Even Klixon will tell you that their units are not made for repeated connect and disconnect.

    https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/art.../#.XEOfAy2ZOL8


    Just one part of AC120-80

    "Using a Circuit Breaker as an On/Off Switch. Since circuit breakers are designed to open an electrical circuit automatically at a predetermined overload of current, they should not be used for day-to-day operational functions because they would not be performing their intended function, which is protection against overloads. You should not use circuit breakers, even those suitable for frequent operation, as a switch to turn protected items on or off. An air carrier should publish and include in its approved maintenance programs and flight operations manuals any exceptions to this procedure."


    Last edited by GeeBee; 01-19-2019 at 05:34 PM.
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  36. #36
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    Fuel doesn't flow uphill from a belly pod and some people don't install a hand pump with their fancy new skis or amphib floats. And switch breakers are made to be . . . switches and breakers.

    Skis up over snow or fuel stuck in a belly pod/aux tank means 'emergency' here, when home or help is out of range.

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  37. #37

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    I have flown about two dozen "tanked" airplanes over oceans. It is foolish to range yourself out without a wobble pump. IOW, if you are depending on AN electric pump to meet your range and operational needs, you've made a bad and foolish mistake.

    Switch breakers are a whole other story. We have not been talking about them.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Fuel doesn't flow uphill from a belly pod and some people don't install a hand pump with their fancy new skis or amphib floats. And switch breakers are made to be . . . switches and breakers.

    Skis up over snow or fuel stuck in a belly pod/aux tank means 'emergency' here, when home or help is out of range.

    Web
    Wheels down to land in the snow is ok. Helps lots of times..
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  39. #39
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I got around the popping the CBon the ADSB, no transponder or ADSB unit so no need to have to pull a CB.
    Steve Pierce

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  40. #40

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    Do you turn your smart phone off too?

    Look, if they want to find where you were, they can. Heck most newer cars transmit position even if you do not subscribe to the services. I've been having breakfast every Monday with a retired member of the Date-Miami drug task force. You would not believe all the ways you can be tracked. In the case of aircraft especially, transponder or no transponder. There are too many video cameras and too much radar for it not to happen. If you have an airspace violation say a class B, and you are a primary target they will track that target to the landing airport, find a video and slam the door. Seen that happen twice.

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