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ADS B Out and search and rescue

I’ve always said if I build an experimental, it’s gonna have the tail number from Elvis’s jet on it. No paperwork, no electrical, no nothing.

This is is just adding fuel to that fire.
 
That's funny! Every install I do, someone always asks where the breakers are.

Web

Think about this. What is the purpose of a C/B? Why would it pop? Do you really want to reset it? Here is the thing. You can easily overload a house circuit and pop the breaker. Let it cool and reset. However an aviation circuit properly designed should never overload unless.....there is a short or the component it powers is overloaded. Now with that short, do you really want to reset unless a greater emergency exists? Equally so, would you reset a breaker on a fuel system component such as a valve or pump? Finally since many C/B are "trip free" it is easy to brush against them say with a bag and trip them accidentally. You push in on many aviation trip free breakers and they will release. This feature by the way caused a gear up landing of a LOT Boeing 767 in Warsaw.

When I am airborne and a C/B trips, I leave it alone until I am on the ground and can investigate the reason for the trip.
 
Think about this. What is the purpose of a C/B? Why would it pop? Do you really want to reset it? Here is the thing. You can easily overload a house circuit and pop the breaker. Let it cool and reset. However an aviation circuit properly designed should never overload unless.....there is a short or the component it powers is overloaded. Now with that short, do you really want to reset unless a greater emergency exists? Equally so, would you reset a breaker on a fuel system component such as a valve or pump? Finally since many C/B are "trip free" it is easy to brush against them say with a bag and trip them accidentally. You push in on many aviation trip free breakers and they will release. This feature by the way caused a gear up landing of a LOT Boeing 767 in Warsaw.

When I am airborne and a C/B trips, I leave it alone until I am on the ground and can investigate the reason for the trip.

It was a joke. See post #33. Most people up here don't care to be tracked. Period. Not by friends, neighbors, curious computer nerds, and especially not by big brother. So, when you clear the ANC airspace and pull the breaker, you can go on about your business. Seriously doubt anyone will pay attention to one Cub or 185 out of 100 to 125 flying into/out of the area. If there's an emergency, use your ELT and sat phone.

For the technical answer, the circuit breaker is installed to protect a wire NOT a component. If properly sized and installed, it will trip open when the current flow through it exceeds the rating of the breaker. Nothing more.

Terminology: push only refers to a breaker that has no knob on it to grasp and manually trip it. Best example is the classic 'Cessna' breaker. Push-pull breakers or switch breakers have a knob or toggle to grasp and manually trip. See the Potter-Brumfeld W23 and Klixon 7274 breakers and the Potter-Brumfeld W31 switch breakers. Trip free breakers are designed so that they will not be able to be reset if the over current condition still exists. Most aircraft breakers are considered to be trip free. Certain breakers are not trip free in design and can be manually held closed all the way up to the wire burning. This type should only be used when called out by the manufacturer (or STC holder) but in the right place they can let you sacrifice some burnt wires for a safe return or landing.

Even with a trip free breaker installed, you can get a little time out of a circuit in some cases. Say you have a hydraulic or fuel pump that you MUST get working. When the breaker pops, give it 30 seconds to a minute and reset it and try it again. The time between resets should allow the breaker to cool enough to re engage for a time. Remember: a properly sized and installed breaker WILL NOT allow the wire to burn. Burnt wiring comes from other causes. On small aircraft I regularly see breakers, of all types, that fail to trip with rated load due to mild corrosion of the contacts. These cases are on breakers 15+ years old and aircraft used around salt water. As the contacts of the breaker start to corroded together, normal current flow is not interrupted but they will not release when overloaded. Makes for bad smells and excited aircrew.

As for inadvertent tripping, older breakers that randomly trip or any breaker that trips when 'brushed' against should be replaced. Never reuse old breakers (don't get cheap with breakers when installing a $3000 system). And using push-pull or switch breakers allows you to isolate individual systems without having to shut down your master circuit.

Web
 
Again, I say "unless a greater emergency exists" and there is little in this world that constitute that point. Hydraulic pump? Extend the gear manually, land flaps up. Fuel pump? Even a Boeing will gravity feed up to 30K. If you "ranged out" due to an inoperative pump you have either an improperly designed system or you failed to verify the feed before ranging out. Make no mistake I would have to be in deep, I mean really deep do-do to reset a fuel pump c/b unless you want to be a TWA 800. I've actually seen those submersible pumps arc at the lead on the bench. You got to be nuts to reset a fuel pump c/b without serious problems.

C/B do protect the wire, but the thermal runaway comes from somewhere and that somewhere is excessive current through the wire. That usually comes as a result of the appliance itself such as a stalled motor, coil or other point of failure that turns the wire into a toaster element.

I would suggest all review AC120-80 and you might want to read this article that mentions the same document. I would also point out that it is a very, very bad idea to use a C/B as a switch. Even Klixon will tell you that their units are not made for repeated connect and disconnect.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/should-you-reset-a-circuit-breaker/#.XEOfAy2ZOL8


Just one part of AC120-80

"Using a Circuit Breaker as an On/Off Switch. Since circuit breakers are designed to open an electrical circuit automatically at a predetermined overload of current, they should not be used for day-to-day operational functions because they would not be performing their intended function, which is protection against overloads. You should not use circuit breakers, even those suitable for frequent operation, as a switch to turn protected items on or off. An air carrier should publish and include in its approved maintenance programs and flight operations manuals any exceptions to this procedure."


 
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Fuel doesn't flow uphill from a belly pod and some people don't install a hand pump with their fancy new skis or amphib floats. And switch breakers are made to be . . . switches and breakers.

Skis up over snow or fuel stuck in a belly pod/aux tank means 'emergency' here, when home or help is out of range.

Web
 
I have flown about two dozen "tanked" airplanes over oceans. It is foolish to range yourself out without a wobble pump. IOW, if you are depending on AN electric pump to meet your range and operational needs, you've made a bad and foolish mistake.

Switch breakers are a whole other story. We have not been talking about them.
 
Fuel doesn't flow uphill from a belly pod and some people don't install a hand pump with their fancy new skis or amphib floats. And switch breakers are made to be . . . switches and breakers.

Skis up over snow or fuel stuck in a belly pod/aux tank means 'emergency' here, when home or help is out of range.

Web

Wheels down to land in the snow is ok. Helps lots of times..
 
Do you turn your smart phone off too?

Look, if they want to find where you were, they can. Heck most newer cars transmit position even if you do not subscribe to the services. I've been having breakfast every Monday with a retired member of the Date-Miami drug task force. You would not believe all the ways you can be tracked. In the case of aircraft especially, transponder or no transponder. There are too many video cameras and too much radar for it not to happen. If you have an airspace violation say a class B, and you are a primary target they will track that target to the landing airport, find a video and slam the door. Seen that happen twice.
 
The government can use forensic radar analysis to find lost airplanes. ADS-B will make it easier. The problem with ADS-B is that anyone can track you. I didn't agree to broadcast my flight tracks publicly. In fact I signed up with the FAA to keep my tracks private. They can't do it. Until the government fixes that I'll keep my circuit breaker in reach.
 
You've never been to Alaska have you?

Web

Web, in the South we have the old, "Y'all ain't from around here are you? routine. Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of "You don't know Alaska" as well.

I don't know your age, but I would guess since you are still working, I flew in Alaska before you could legally buy alcohol, maybe earlier. I flew there in college in a Part 135 ops and I've flown there Part 91 recreationally and professionally including several airplane deliveries both wheel and amphibious. So please I won't if you won't give the "Y'all ain't from around here" routine.

To put a finer point, yes Alaska is remote, challenging and very often very cold. It is also surrounded by an ADIZ system that can detect a mouse fart at 40 yards. You might want to think about the fact that for instance there is more radar coverage in the polar regions of the world than the Indian Ocean. (You get a discrete squawk crossing over Greenland for instance) You see, there was a time when the natural avenue of attack from the Russians was polar and yes, most those systems are still operational because because believe me, the TU-95's even today, don't call up and ask Anchorage Center for a discrete squak on the thunder runs. If they can get within 12 miles of the shoreline, they will because that is their job, to find out what we got. So what do you think we have?

Years ago a Beech Baron crashed after radar service had been terminated from Bay Approach (now NorCal) going into Concord, CA just east of SFO. The NTSB wanted a radar track and you know where they found it? From an AWACS E-3 800 miles west over the Pacific. If you go looking, you'll find it. Enough said.
 
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Web, in the South we have the old, "Y'all ain't from around here are you? routine. Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of "You don't know Alaska" as well.

I don't know your age, but I would guess since you are still working, I flew in Alaska before you could legally buy alcohol, maybe earlier. I flew there in college in a Part 135 ops and I've flown there Part 91 recreationally and professionally including several airplane deliveries both wheel and amphibious. So please I won't if you won't give the "Y'all ain't from around here" routine.

To put a finer point, yes Alaska is remote, challenging and very often very cold. It is also surrounded by an ADIZ system that can detect a mouse fart at 40 yards. You might want to think about the fact that for instance there is more radar coverage in the polar regions of the world than the Indian Ocean. (You get a discrete squawk crossing over Greenland for instance) You see, there was a time when the natural avenue of attack from the Russians was polar and yes, most those systems are still operational because because believe me, the TU-95's even today, don't call up and ask Anchorage Center for a discrete squak on the thunder runs. If they can get within 12 miles of the shoreline, they will because that is their job, to find out what we got. So what do you think we have?

Years ago a Beech Baron crashed after radar service had been terminated from Bay Approach (now NorCal) going into Concord, CA just east of SFO. The NTSB wanted a radar track and you know where they found it? From an AWACS E-3 800 miles west over the Pacific. If you go looking, you'll find it. Enough said.

Yep, that's why a couple of pretty famous Congressmen went missing and have never been found.....in Alaska. And, numerous others, for that matter. Those fancy radars you described point away from Alaska for the most part. And, the AF isn't wont to share that data in any case....at least not to citizens or companies who'd like to track people.

Your argument would suggest that the AF should be able to pin point every accident/incident that occurs in Alaska, yet that's not the case, and yes, RCC does talk to those folks.

MTV
 
Yep, that's why a couple of pretty famous Congressmen went missing and have never been found.....in Alaska. And, numerous others, for that matter. Those fancy radars you described point away from Alaska for the most part. And, the AF isn't wont to share that data in any case....at least not to citizens or companies who'd like to track people.

Your argument would suggest that the AF should be able to pin point every accident/incident that occurs in Alaska, yet that's not the case, and yes, RCC does talk to those folks.

MTV

The discussion was tracking an airplane to an airport, especially in the case of a violation. Not to a mountain crash site to whit no aircraft would or could land. Further I pointed to the use of both radar and video evidence. Unlikely video will be at a mountain crash site. I can for instance right now find three outdoor web cams of Barrow and the horizon around.
 
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The discussion was tracking an airplane to an airport, especially in the case of a violation. Not to a mountain crash site to whit no aircraft would or could land. Further I pointed to the use of both radar and video evidence. Unlikely video will be at a mountain crash site. I can for instance right now find three outdoor web cams of Barrow and the horizon around.

But, if you Uber Radar can track an airplane to an airport, it should also be able to track an airplane to a crash site. But again, thoseradars are optimized to search for potentially “hostile” aircraft, not looking for bug smashers cruising around the countryside.

Point is, a LOT of airplanes go missing in Alaska every year. And it’s not like SAR just checks out their radar track to the crash site.

Finally, there are a LOT of mountains both in Alaska AND in the Lower 48.

Frankly, I could care less if anybody is tracking me. That said, I don’t own an airplane to fly to places that will require ADS-B after 2020. So, I’m spending that $ to buy a gas. And, yes, I’m familiar with the traffic feature on ADS-B in. I’ve survived this far looking out the window, and will continue to do so.

But out worrying about somebody tracking me? Who cares?

MTV
 
No I did not say "uber radar can track an airplane to an airport. Here is what I said

" If you have an airspace violation say a class B, and you are a primary target they will track that target to the landing airport, find a video and slam the door. Seen that happen twice."

My point was you are just a primary target. Once they correlate that target with a video they got you. They simply have to put the 2 and 2 together
before an ALJ, pointing out the airplane in the video is the only airplane that could have been in the area when you dropped below radar coverage and you're toast. If you appear on that video on a 3000' downwind they don't have to track you to the ground, they got their airplane. You might think you have "rights" and presumption of innocence but you're before an ALJ. Whole different ball game on proof.


 
I know someone who was investigated for not flying his 40 hrs off before leaving his flight test area. The FAA had checked his Facebook and claimed he was in Florida when he reached his 40 hrs. They determined this off his Flight Aware data from the ADSB out. Turns out the wrong N number was programmed into the ADSB unit for the first 10 hours of the test flights. Had to send them a logbook entry for an oil change at 38.9 hours from a shop on the other side of the country to clear it up. Big Brother might not be watching but he sure has the means.
If you have ever had the Feds try to goat rope you then you might understand. 5 years of bullshit taught me a lot. Bill Bainbridge and Bob Hoover have similar stories. I think ADS-B is a joke for small airplanes simply crammed down our throats so avionics manufacturers can make a good fat profit and help line AOPA and EAA's pockets. Good 406 ELT and PLBs are what I would rely on to be found in an accident especially having seen how many areas are not covered by ADS-B. Glad I live away from any big metropolitan area and am not required to install this stuff.
 
We don't have to go far in the news these days to find out how invasive the Federal government can be on an administrative level if they want to get you. The FAA does not have to go far. They have their own network of cameras. Look at this map

https://avcams.faa.gov

Now mix in a little ARTCC radar and little ADIZ and you got pretty much a slam dunk. They don't need ADS-B, it just saves some time.
 
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Aviation weather cams have nothing to do with surveillance. Those are visual weather tools to help we Alaskans see what's out there waiting for us. ADS-B offers another weather source.

The tool the government uses to find lost Alaskan planes from what I was told is AWACS. Maybe that's changed lately but I don't think the big Air Force radars are paying any attention to 85mph Cubs flying below 1000' AGL. They have to call in experts to analyze radar tapes and hope they can piece something together. That takes time. I believe that's how they found the Pilatus Porter that crashed in the Ak Range a couple of years ago.
 
Back when I was mud crawling through CAP, we found quite a few aircraft with ARTC NTAPs...it was a labor intensive process, going through fan fold paper printouts to put together a story about the target in question...assuming you picked the right one.....once, when a buddy of mine put his Meyers in the (freezing cold) Great Salt Lake (during a frontal passage snow storm) and was sitting on the tail cone in five feet of water, the FAA didn’t want to get someone out of bed to do it, so the Governor stepped in and demanded quick action.

Any faster process would be very welcome....
 
Aviation weather cams have nothing to do with surveillance. Those are visual weather tools to help we Alaskans see what's out there waiting for us. ADS-B offers another weather source.

The tool the government uses to find lost Alaskan planes from what I was told is AWACS. Maybe that's changed lately but I don't think the big Air Force radars are paying any attention to 85mph Cubs flying below 1000' AGL. They have to call in experts to analyze radar tapes and hope they can piece something together. That takes time. I believe that's how they found the Pilatus Porter that crashed in the Ak Range a couple of years ago.

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that if the FAA is looking for evidence that if your airplane involved in a possible violation did land at a given airport, that the weather cam is off limits to the FAA and its investigators?
 
Pretty slim chance the weather cam will help any 'surveillance'. They snap a picture once every ten minutes. Odds are very low any specific activity will be seen.
 
The government can use forensic radar analysis to find lost airplanes. ADS-B will make it easier. The problem with ADS-B is that anyone can track you. I didn't agree to broadcast my flight tracks publicly. In fact I signed up with the FAA to keep my tracks private. They can't do it. Until the government fixes that I'll keep my circuit breaker in reach.


ADS-B Another Damn Surveillance - Bitch
How long before user fees when the feds know where all the aircraft are in the system? Ya'all know it's coming :evil:
 
A four years ago, Blaze Highlander, a Yute Air Pilot didn’t return from a IO520 break in flight. FAA used the ADSB system to identify his flight track...down in the weeds... he may have caught a wing and cartwheeled into a creek....and had 20% Co in his blood stream...


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Pretty slim chance the weather cam will help any 'surveillance'. They snap a picture once every ten minutes. Odds are very low any specific activity will be seen.

Actually they record constantly, in most places, maybe not the battery/solar units on mountain tops. But only upload every 10 minutes. They can retrieve any data the FAA asks for. Or NTSB


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