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Thread: Stolen and looped

  1. #1
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Stolen and looped

    Just starting to read about it, but seems a ground service agent stole a Horizon Air Q400 in Seattle last evening and put on a small air show with a couple F15’s in trail.

    After emptying the fuel tanks he crashed and perished.

    Not to be callus, but the flight data might prove to be invaluable to Bombardier as it’s probably the only loop on record in their 76 seat turboprop.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/11/us/pl...off/index.html

    https://mobile.twitter.com/CameronTh...568448/video/1


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone

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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    In related news, it looks like it’s best to employ pilot-mechanics. Judging from the list attached all the mechanic-thieves were non-pilots.
    Unless you live in Holland. Then keep the drunk Dutchman away.

    https://news.aviation-safety.net/201...g-an-aircraft/


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    Guess you should add heavy drinkers and Russians to your “do not employ list” as well..

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Someone left the keys in the ignition.

    I have an acquaintance that earned his "PC pilot's license" flying a sim program. He brings it up from time to time but I haven't let him in my plane to prove it. He's serious about the training.

    Edit: "Gary Beck, CEO of Horizon Air, said it wasn’t clear how the man knew to start the engine, which requires a series of switches and levers. “We don’t know how he learned to do that,” he said."

    The "pilot" Rich: Rich: Nah I mean, I don't need that much help. I've played some video games before. I would like to figure out how to get this… make it pressurized or something so I'm not lightheaded.

    https://www.eyerevolution.co.uk/tours/NAC/DHC8400/
    http://www.air.flyingway.com/books/m...400_Manual.pdf
    https://wiki.virtual.austrian.com/li...400_omcp_1.pdf

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 08-11-2018 at 05:22 PM.

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I want to know how he got it off the ground at a busy airport like SEA-TAC without getting stopped!

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    Personally I have no desire to be near those that play video games. A recent customer of mine,"I design and build road race cars" he has crashed the last 5 cars he has driven in the past 3 years. He still thinks he is the best and fastest driver out there. Yup his 9' screen on his toy game makes him real fast.
    I no longer do work for him and chose to not finish either BMW I was building him.
    I will not get in a car or plane with a "Gamer".
    I also do not want to be near any gamer when a gun is around.

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    nightflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I want to know how he got it off the ground at a busy airport like SEA-TAC without getting stopped!
    The Horizon ramp is very close to the runway. It wouldn’t take long at all the taxi for an intersection takeoff and a light Q-400 doesn’t need much runway for takeoff.

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    https://www.frontiersman.com/breakin...e4029c536.html


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  10. #10
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I play video games at 70. Keeps your mind sharp. Don't think I am dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Personally I have no desire to be near those that play video games. A recent customer of mine,"I design and build road race cars" he has crashed the last 5 cars he has driven in the past 3 years. He still thinks he is the best and fastest driver out there. Yup his 9' screen on his toy game makes him real fast.
    I no longer do work for him and chose to not finish either BMW I was building him.
    I will not get in a car or plane with a "Gamer".
    I also do not want to be near any gamer when a gun is around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Don't think I am dangerous.
    Talk about a target of opportunity!
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 08-11-2018 at 07:13 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    As I texted my son when he told me last night a ground employee stole a Dash 8 and went on a suicide flight, 'He couldn't find a cheaper way?'

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Unless I want to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Talk about a target of opportunity!
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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    I just saw AVWeb's report on this, and I took a moment to click on the first youtube video on how to start the A400. It is amazingly detailed and would appear to be more than adequate to teach one how to start the aircraft.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Q400.JPG 
Views:	1222 
Size:	65.7 KB 
ID:	38411

    https://www.avweb.com/eletter/archiv...t=email#231366

    I found this to be a bit disturbing. The ability to gain access to knowledge bases like this is a two edged sword.

    Randy

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    The cockpit door has a lock. At AA, you had to enter a code to get in if it was closed and the cockpit was empty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    The cockpit door has a lock. At AA, you had to enter a code to get in if it was closed and the cockpit was empty.

    Do you not think some maintenance personnel have access to the flight deck?

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    Not if they are gamers!


    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Do you not think some maintenance personnel have access to the flight deck?

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    I would have loved to fly a Dash 7 or 8 - or even the Twotter. But the Q400 sounds like a very modern aircraft - starting an ancient Airbus, as I recall, required finding the master switch, the APU switch, and the engine start switch. Even my J-3 has more switches than that for an electric start.

    then all he had to do is find the flap lever, and remember that pushing forward means faster, just like his car.

  19. #19
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    You can't legislate away 'crazy'. There is nothing on any airplane that can be locked, that could have prevented this situation. No rules either. Maintenance personnel taxi and run up aircraft. Two person rules can, and are, routinely sidestepped. All we can do is carefully vet individuals to preclude any irrational types and keep watch on each other for radical changes in behavior. Not much will stop a determined individual from doing evil.

    This particular guy was a solid employee for three and a half years with no reports of strange behavior. He was cleared to be on the flight line with these aircraft. When the aircraft started up, who was going to know that he wasn't supposed to do that? And once he was on the taxi way nothing is going to physically keep him from taking off.

    Remember the German regional airliner that was intentionally crashed about three years ago ( + or -). The pilot that did that was part of a two man crew along with the flight attendants. He was able to lock the second pilot out of the cockpit and crash the airplane. A much more extreme example than Seattle but once again, what rule changes could have stopped him once he set out to do that?

    It's the same in any field we work in. Think about what Dr Randy could do if he went crazy.

    Web
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post



    It's the same in any field we work in. Think about what Dr Randy could do if he went crazy.

    Web
    With his nickname

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    I agree with Wire - except I think the secret code idea would have given the Swissair captain a chance!

    From the beginning - the PSA guy who killed the crew in San Luis - to at least very recently, the TSA has only been screening flight crews and passengers. Caterers and fuelers, according to James Hall, then NTSB chairman, did not need screening because they were carefully vetted. Pilots - not so much.

  22. #22
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    This incident is just going to add another layer of security for airline employees. This young man was a fully vetted ramp worker. There is many ways to learn the start sequence of those engines. Perhaps he rode with mechanics on maintenance ground runs and learned that way. He also knew how to use the radio too. You will never stop determined and/or crazy.
    Last edited by Cub junkie; 08-13-2018 at 06:04 PM.

  23. #23
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    One little known fact is that ramp people don't go thru security like everybody else. Took them 10 years after 911 before they stopped making Captains take their shoes off in front of the travelling masses.
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  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I have visions of the Director of TSA talking to the CEO of Horizon: “Wait, you mean you guys leave the keys in those things when they’re parked?”

    ****!

    MTV
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    One little known fact is that ramp people don't go thru security like everybody else. Took them 10 years after 911 before they stopped making Captains take their shoes off in front of the travelling masses.
    From my observation things had already changed before this. My example being my daughter works inside the fence at a Class Delta airport which has airline service and had to get a TSA background check before she could be on the ramp unescorted even thought the terminal is half a mile away (way outside the blue line) and she and all other employees must ALWAYS have her ID on them while on the ramp.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  26. #26
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Does she go thru security when she goes to work?



    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    From my observation things had already changed before this. My example being my daughter works inside the fence at a Class Delta airport which has airline service and had to get a TSA background check before she could be on the ramp unescorted even thought the terminal is half a mile away (way outside the blue line) and she and all other employees must ALWAYS have her ID on them while on the ramp.

  27. #27
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    On our AA jets you could throw a switch to keep someone from gaining entry with the keypad.


    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I agree with Wire - except I think the secret code idea would have given the Swissair captain a chance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Does she go thru security when she goes to work?
    No they appear to only suspect flight and cabin crews of dastardly intent... but the background check she had was quite though, far more than mine was several years ago when I did airport projects. Along that line I have never seen general terminal personnel go through screening, anybody know if they have a separate facility for burger flippers, magazine stand folks and gate attendants at the medium and bigger airports?
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    .. but the background check she had was quite though
    Kirby,

    Have you considered that they may have seen YOUR name on her background check?

    MTV
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Kirby,

    Have you considered that they may have seen YOUR name on her background check?

    MTV
    Yes they called it the Eaton-proximity verification!
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  31. #31
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Interesting to watch the talking heads and "aviation experts" ask "How could this happen?"

    IMHO. You can't stop an isolated, unforseen event like this without instituting draconian rules.

    As Webb says, "Life's tough, wear a cup."
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    As an airline employee you don’t go through TSA to get onto the AOA because you’re not going on a flight. If you are going to take a flight as a standby passenger after work you have to go out and come back through the checkpoint just like everyone else. As far as locks on cockpits that also is for in-flight, not ground ops. Mechanics know how to start engines, they do it all the time. Virtually every airliner that is parked overnight has a stack of deferred squawks that need to get fixed, you can’t lock maintenance people out. Everyone with a SIDA badge has had a background check including this guy. Apparently up until Friday evening he wasn’t nuts and we don’t have anything that can predict who is going to snap or when. We don’t have any idea what caused this guy to go over the edge. Could just as easily be the guy with the keys if we add another level of knee jerk security.

    Now as for the “lncredible maneuvers” um, he tried to do a barrel roll and botched it pretty good as he came out heading the opposite way he went in. I can guarantee you that every kid who has ever played a flight sim game has done some form of sloppy barrel roll. Pretty sure they’ve all tried to fly inverted under the Golden Gate Bridge too. He just happened to have enough altitude (barely) to pull it off so in that sense and the fact that it got recorded, it was pretty spectacular.

    What sets this guy apart however is his apparent complete lack of evil intent or anger and his benign chatty nature. If he could have pulled off a landing would we really have locked him up for life?
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    fobjob's Avatar
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    And what happens when we start doing interplanetary/interstellar travel on a regular basis? We probably ought to get this screening business perfected before then.....



    I understand he’s being called “Sky King”, and apparently being reluctantly admired for the way he chose to exit the planet....
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    No they appear to only suspect flight and cabin crews of dastardly intent... but the background check she had was quite though, far more than mine was several years ago when I did airport projects. Along that line I have never seen general terminal personnel go through screening, anybody know if they have a separate facility for burger flippers, magazine stand folks and gate attendants at the medium and bigger airports?
    Burger flippers are given access through security, but only in the terminal

    SIDA is for those needing to be on the 121 ramp/runway/taxiway

    AOA is for those outside SIDA but needing access to GA ramp and taxi way and runway.

    Each have different levels of access
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcabpilot View Post
    …. he tried to do a barrel roll and botched it pretty good as he came out heading the opposite way he went in. ….. He just happened to have enough altitude (barely) to pull it off so in that sense and the fact that it got recorded, it was pretty spectacular...…
    Yup, nose came down and he fell out of the roll, looked like he did a split S or at least dished out of it.
    Easy enough for that to happen the first time out, don't ask me how I know.
    I wonder how fast that Dash 8 got going downhill, and how many G's he pulled on the recovery.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    One little known fact is that ramp people don't go thru security like everybody else. Took them 10 years after 911 before they stopped making Captains take their shoes off in front of the travelling masses.
    Not true anymore. The gun running operation at ATL closed that hole. In fact, when I leave the airplane because I walk 50 feet outside the sterile area to get to the employee bus, I have to get re screened to have access to the employee bus on the ramp. Equally so, everyone is ran through security screening in the parking lot before they can board the employee bus.

  37. #37
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    From Facebook


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    Click image for larger version. 

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  39. #39
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    On a side note. What was that plane worth?? Does insurance cover an employee going off the edge and destroying your plane??


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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    On a side note. What was that plane worth?? Does insurance cover an employee going off the edge and destroying your plane??


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    Hard to say. Most airlines actually don't own the airplanes. The bank owns them and they are leased. Right now there is an insurance company lawyer pouring through the coverage exemptions to deny the claim.

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