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Thread: PA-18A Restoration. Something old, something new

  1. #41

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    I did both on my old -12 and I'd do both again if I built another standard Cub. Minimal weight, more tie down options. When the wind's blowing I use both in case one loosens. I can't be sure the force won't be on one ir the other attachment. I still want to fly with confidence after the storm. The Wildcat is tied down double every day. It's been a windy summer!
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  2. #42
    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I did both on my old -12 and I'd do both again if I built another standard Cub. Minimal weight, more tie down options. When the wind's blowing I use both in case one loosens. I can't be sure the force won't be on one ir the other attachment. I still want to fly with confidence after the storm. The Wildcat is tied down double every day. It's been a windy summer!
    I installed both on my other cub as well. I only use the hurricane tie-downs, but like the added strength for the struts. I've seen several strut attachment fittings that were tweaked from something so I figure it can't hurt a thing.

    I'm also a strong believer in the heavy duty rear lift struts; as the original ones can't take very much compression, and will buckle. (snow or wind loads) You can fold one up over your knee.

    I first saw the heavy strut being demoed at the AK trade show by Lee Budde the developer,who had one on 4x4 blocks; six feet apart, and he was standing in the middle. Lee is not a small man. They add a few more pounds but well worth every ounce when the heavy snow is falling.

    I wonder what sort of negative G's a cub could stand with these things installed???
    Ed

  3. #43
    kase's Avatar
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    Kinda a neat to find and have a cub with such low time. I know of 3 Super Cubs in hangars with less that 900 TTSN that haven't flown in 20+ years.

  4. #44
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I always have mixed feelings when I see an extremely low-time airplane-- esp when the owner brags about it.
    On one hand, it is pretty cool to have a pristine, un-beat-up airplane.
    But on the other hand, these things are made to fly -- either to work, or to provide pleasure to the pilot.
    Myself, I'd rather have a higher-time, less pristine airplane that I can fly the hell out of without worrying that I'm lowering it's value.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I always have mixed feelings when I see an extremely low-time airplane-- esp when the owner brags about it.
    On one hand, it is pretty cool to have a pristine, un-beat-up airplane.
    But on the other hand, these things are made to fly -- either to work, or to provide pleasure to the pilot.
    Myself, I'd rather have a higher-time, less pristine airplane that I can fly the hell out of without worrying that I'm lowering it's value.
    Yep: Sitting around is not a good thing as I can attest to. I need to go throw about a 30 lb king salmon in the back and let him flop around awhile, to get her broke in..... Then i can start using it. (My wife may have other thoughts thou..)

    In this case; being super low time is of little relavence, and along with about $4 can get you a cup of coffee; maybe.
    It is fun to talk about thou.

    Everything had to be totally restored. I think you can do the same with a 10000 hr airframe and done to the same extent could be identical. At that point the previous hours don’t matter much. What matters is how well the work was done.


    When I bid on this thing 15 years ago, my offer was based mostly upon the value of the engine, floats, the new prop, and paperwork; not the hours. Everything else was...well, what it was.
    Last edited by cubpilot2; 07-14-2018 at 02:39 PM.
    Ed
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  6. #46
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I rebuilt a 1979 1000 hr. Super Cub that had lived in West Texas all it's life. Very nice airframe that saved a lot of the normal work. Problem I see with these airplane is people want a lot of money for them and they have 40 year old fabric. You are gonna spend at least $50K to recover one by the time you fix the stuff you find, recover and get through the "while we are here we might as well" list.
    Steve Pierce

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  7. #47
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    18A Fuselage fabric:

    Thought I would show this in some detail as it may be useful for someone, someday.

    As most here know, there have many disscussions about what is the best or “legal way” in some cases to attach Poly Fiber or Ceconite to the fuselage of an 18 since the revised manual for these makes statements that restrict attaching to a backbone or any stringer as Piper did in the early years; prior to Polyester fabrics.
    Piper installation drawings verify this.
    Most people are now using a sewn seam that is lightly glued down the backbone. Making this look good can be difficult especially if the seam slips; but many here are becoming very good at it and get excellent results.

    When I was first exposed to covering cubs in 1969, all were being done by gluing to the stringers. This was all standard 18s as well as the 18As in the fleet. (22 cubs of both types.)

    That is the technique that I was taught and I accepted it as being proper for both types. I had no reason to doubt.
    I was too late on the scene to ever see a brand new 18A to verify exactly what they did.

    When the Polyfiber restrictions for this arrived, it was a struggle for me to understand how we could put this stuff on and not have a mess. I have seen people try to use two sewn seams on an 18A and have yet to see one that looks good. Ive even seen single seams right down the middle and crooked as a snake.

    To settle my frustrations I started searching for a copy of a Piper drawing for the fabric installation for the 18A as I was thinking that if i had the drawing perhaps i could get approval to do it the same as Piper did. It took quite some time to locate the correct one, but when I did; I was shocked to discover that what I had been taught was not accurate.

    Piper did not glue the top section to the stingers but to the upper longerons. All of the 18As came with the large metal hopper cover so the actual top or back fabric section is relatively short. The drawing shows the lower sides being covered first, up to and wrapped around the longerons; and the top fabric would then overlay the longerons using a flat doped seam and follow along the upper sides below the hopper lid to the D window frames.
    The vertical fin fabric was part of the lower side cover and the top and sides were attached with dope to the 3/8 channel framework at the stabilizer jackscrew. Nothing was sewn.

    When you remove the metal hopper cover, it is a game changer.

    The top area is now much longer and as the back starts to curve upwards it creates a sort of compound curve when you add the sides. This would be very difficult to attach without lots of wrinkles to fight. You want to hold a nice flat over-lay seam at the longerons without risking pulling loose from lots of shrinking.

    The answer was to reverse the process. Install the top section first, allowing a good snug fit by wrapping the longerons and providing a way to pull out the wrinkles.

    The sides then go on easy as everything is basically flat.

    The photos below tell most of the story.

    The seam along the longerons turned out better then anticipated; and barely shows, but a person will want to make sure that the longerons are strait. Their shape / contour will show right through.

    If you want to glue to the stringers then consider the Stewarts Process. They have no such restrictions!

    Hope this helps.
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    Ed
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  8. #48

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    GREAT panel lay out... I like that you kept everything flush...Windows are meant to look out of, not around stuff to look out of...
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  9. #49

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    Ask the folks associated with the wip upgrade a few years ago what purpose the 3/8 tube served...
    Was told then that it served no purpose it was just to id the wip upgrade
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-YQK View Post
    Ask the folks associated with the wip upgrade a few years ago what purpose the 3/8 tube served...
    Was told then that it served no purpose it was just to id the wip upgrade
    As I recall Jim Richmond owner of Cub crafters told me a few years ago, “that when the testing was done for the gross weight increase, they used an original, used cub fuselage during the drop testing. (so that the STC would apply to all older cubs.). He said that evidently some flexing was observed during the tests in the door area, and that the little tube was added, which was successful. They would not have added this unless they had to.”

    His STC for 2300 lbs uses a new 4130 fuselage (Univair I think) and did not need it.
    Ed

  11. #51
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Thanks Ed for mentioning this thread, and linking to it, in your thread on the ankle saver mod.

    Somehow I missed this one. Nice A model!! I remember the Cub and tree well!!

    When I did the Wip upgross on a customer Cub in the mid 90’s, I was told the 3/8” tube or machined bolt on brace “...stabilized the door frame cluster from rear gear leg fitting forces...”. Makes sense to me.

    Thanks again!
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  12. #52

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    Wise to include the VSI if you're gonna be on floats...I see rebuilds where they just are thinking about saving weight and only going with the TC basics, A/S and Altimeter. Try doing a glassy water without a VSI...

  13. #53
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    If a pilot needs anything that's on the instrument panel to do a glassy water landing, he needs some instruction from a competent float pilot. Or stay on wheels. And be careful if you fly skis in flat light. Same thing.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by flywhatever View Post
    Wise to include the VSI if you're gonna be on floats...I see rebuilds where they just are thinking about saving weight and only going with the TC basics, A/S and Altimeter. Try doing a glassy water without a VSI...
    I've done hundreds of them without a VSI. Last thing I want on a VFR panel, actually....wheels or floats.

    MTV

  15. #55
    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Why did I keep a VSI?
    My intention is for future flight instruction for my grandkids.
    For float training they would need something to reference to learn what 2-300 ft / min looks like.
    Do I ever use it for glassy water? Haven’t needed it yet and have made countless glassy landings but I try to land very close to familiar shore lines.
    Ed

  16. #56
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I like my VSI when in the mountains where I can have the nose up and I am decending. Found it useful a few times
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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