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building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

I only get this picture, no others, by clicking this link. What am I doing wrong??

I was also stumped trying to figure out where the photo albums are located. This link will take you to the section where that picture is located.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/s...tle=n18sy-getting-close-to-cover-time&cat=509

I did finish up the patterns for the boot cowl tonight. I need to figure out the spacing for the nut plates before I trim the side pattern where the brown card board meets the white. Great place for card board is Costco and it's free. The card board that separates the levels of boxes on the pallets makes great pattern card board. Lots of different sizes and thicknesses so you need to search. Just take what you need; they are happy to get rid of it.

Marty

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My brother and I are building a wag aero 2+2 with just 2 seats in tandem. So a super roomy cockpit. We are getting close to fabric. I see a fuselage on barnstormers right now which would be a great start for you. Yes all those piper wings interchange. Only real differences are how the flaps and ailerons will be rigged. They all have the same distance between mounting points at the fuselage as far as I can tell. If you look at Univair most parts interchange. We have mounted 3 different sets of wings on ours. Carbon cub extended and squared, pa-20/22 clipped wings and now a set of Univair 17’ j3/ pa18 wings with huge flaps. We have 29” tires. This makes it sit high on the ground in front. O-320 150hp. It will be a great utilitarian plane. Not too fancy. I wish you luck. I suggest buying a welded fuselage to save a year of build time. Dan
 
If your contemplating 18 wings and Attach points on your
Fuselarge, for more AOI on your wings, your already going to have more AOA with 6" extended gear with standard 12 attach points than an 18 on standard gear? Are you not?
The PA12 aileron setup has some definate advantages, with much more travel overall, and better leading edge for
low speed effectiveness; is something you may NOT want
to give away???? Ditto on Cub struts and rigging, less dihederal equals ruffer riding n more "nose hunting" enroute. Cub wing is still a Cub wing......... Big Flaps are
a big plus for sure....... But end of the line to be able to haul 3 folks in a 1350lb cub wing aircraft as well as your present PA 12 hauls two, may be quite a stretch? Will 30 extra HP offset another 200lb person? The mission basically is really 185ish......... We had a friend that had a Charlie Center moded 14 with 180hp, that we got to watch him fly for years. And there was an old Aeronca Sedan 180hp, with NO flaps, in and out of same lake, that appeared to perform: equally as well, or better day in and day out than the 14 did........ I got to fly a Maule M7 with 180hp that amazed me how great it performed, that would come close to your mission. Your project sounds intetesting and if you wind up with 195hp maybe you can make it all work! Good luck .
E
 
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well due to issues with transferring my PA12 into Owner maintenance here Canada and the ole girl soon needing some new Fabric if I cant get the transfer finally done so I can do the fabric myself I might do something I hate to do but it makes the most financial sense considering my situation with wanting to build a plane and owning a plane that needs a lot of money spent to do the fabric under certified regulations. my 12 has A LOT of new and otherwise good parts that could go towards my build seeing a 12 and 14 share almost everything. so I'm thinking about scrapping the 12 basically to build either a home built pa12 or a 14/2+2 fuselage from scratch. if i stay with the 12 I can reuse my EDO2000's and my 400HR O320, 14 will involve either added a compartment to the 2000's (if you can even do it) or selling and buying another set and selling the O320 and getting a O360 engine. both options would reuse the wings after some changes (longer flaps mostly) ,plus in 4 years my current 12 has gotten new radio, new elt, new intercom, airframe alaska struts , garmin area 500 with airgizmo mount in panel, skytech starter , B&C oil filter adapter, new oil press and temp gauges, atlee +3 gear with safety cable's, long step and axe, wag aero fuel tanks and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other things but I'd get to reuse all that stuff plus all the small stuff that add's up cost very quickly like fuel valve's , windshield, pulleys etc etc.

Like I said I hate to scrap a good plane but If I sell it with 30 YR fabric i will loose my shirt and if I get the fabric done while being certified and then sell it I'll be out around the same money if not more It seems. from the rough math I've done today it seems like the my bank account will take the least hit with me getting the plane I want by building a homebuilt using the expensive parts I already own. But I sometimes do stupid things so if someone sees any obvious reason why I would be an idiot for doing this please point any flaws, I personally like criticism its a good way to learn when your wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Joey
 
well due to issues with transferring my PA12 into Owner maintenance here Canada and the ole girl soon needing some new Fabric if I cant get the transfer finally done so I can do the fabric myself I might do something I hate to do but it makes the most financial sense considering my situation with wanting to build a plane and owning a plane that needs a lot of money spent to do the fabric under certified regulations. my 12 has A LOT of new and otherwise good parts that could go towards my build seeing a 12 and 14 share almost everything. so I'm thinking about scrapping the 12 basically to build either a home built pa12 or a 14/2+2 fuselage from scratch. if i stay with the 12 I can reuse my EDO2000's and my 400HR O320, 14 will involve either added a compartment to the 2000's (if you can even do it) or selling and buying another set and selling the O320 and getting a O360 engine. both options would reuse the wings after some changes (longer flaps mostly) ,plus in 4 years my current 12 has gotten new radio, new elt, new intercom, airframe alaska struts , garmin area 500 with airgizmo mount in panel, skytech starter , B&C oil filter adapter, new oil press and temp gauges, atlee +3 gear with safety cable's, long step and axe, wag aero fuel tanks and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other things but I'd get to reuse all that stuff plus all the small stuff that add's up cost very quickly like fuel valve's , windshield, pulleys etc etc.

Like I said I hate to scrap a good plane but If I sell it with 30 YR fabric i will loose my shirt and if I get the fabric done while being certified and then sell it I'll be out around the same money if not more It seems. from the rough math I've done today it seems like the my bank account will take the least hit with me getting the plane I want by building a homebuilt using the expensive parts I already own. But I sometimes do stupid things so if someone sees any obvious reason why I would be an idiot for doing this please point any flaws, I personally like criticism its a good way to learn when your wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Joey
you can't get a mechanic to oversee you doing the fabric job yourself???? and signing it off...???
 
Closest mechanics to me is around 300 miles away and I dont know any of them from that town. The ame I deal with and know well enough that would be comfortable letting me do my own fabric is around 1200 miles away from me so that's a hard one to swing.
 
Closest mechanics to me is around 300 miles away and I dont know any of them from that town. The ame I deal with and know well enough that would be comfortable letting me do my own fabric is around 1200 miles away from me so that's a hard one to swing.

I was doing all the maintenance for my family’s airtaxi with 5 planes before I had a license for years. The regs state the mechanic overseeing the work must be “.. available in person or by phone..” we gave him a stack of airline vouchers. Feds got kinda cranky as I was rebuilding one of our 185’s that had had the gear ripped out in 1991. He said you really need to go take your test. That was also the Last time I was outside of Alaska.


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Alaska style get it done Mike. Skills, experience, and a test to prove it to the inspector.

Got you beat some for Outside...mine was September 1987 to pick up a Cub in Helena. Wife asks why. I say why go to Zombie Land and get bit?

Gary
 
I'll have to check the rules here in canada, if I can do something like that I'd probably do the wings and tail this winter, fabric is still in good shape so I'm not worried about the fuselage but I'd like to do the wings and control surfaces for peace of mind
 
.... 14 will involve either added a compartment to the 2000's (if you can even do it) or selling and buying another set
Thanks in advance,
Joey
If you end up going this route, you can separate your 2000s at the step then add a filler section of 8" to the forward section. That is what EDO did to make the 2130s. They didn't make a separate section but a filler piece would be the equivalent. Then just get new longer diagonal and front struts. This will keep your step in the same location. I had a set of 2130s on a 172, it made an excellent combination. The maximum allowable gross weight on 2130s is 2366 lbs. If you wanted still more flotation just make your plug a bit longer.

The 2000s which I have on my Cub were originally 1650s which EDO modified to 2000s by adding a plug ahead of the step. They had an overstock of 1650s which they built, expecting Cessna to build a lot of 150 seaplanes. That was a flop.
 
Thanks skywagon thats good info to know, I was planning on a 2300LB gross so I'm glad to hear I can use the 2000's with some modification.

I made a small amount of progress Yesterday with this project, I finally got around to ordering the plans from Wag Aero. excited for them to show up, I bought the northland L21 drawings about a year ago and spent a whole day going through the drawings geeking out. I'm sure once I get them I'll be asking about what area's should be improved on, for example I'm not sure if Wag already incorporates a cabin X brace or not. also like I said I'm shooting for a 2300 gross but wag suggests 2200 so I assume that will require some extra tube's somewhere.
 
I seem to recall that EDO also lengthened the spreader bars for more stability. If needed, I can look for the drawing to find the dimensions. I would think that that would be your call.
 
still doing planning on this build, trying to figure out what I want to use for an engine. I got a quote from aero sport for a 195HP 0-375 and wow talk about sticker shock! no doubt they are probably great engine's but it's hard for me to justify the extra price for 15 more HP vs a stock O-360 which can be had pretty easy. I've never really considered any of the non aircraft engine's But after getting that price and having a friend of mine finishing up his murphy rebel build using a turbo Yamaha apex snowmobile engine its starting to appeal to me, being in the land of snow we can get these engines pretty easy, they make great power when turbo'd ( 200hp+) , they are a reliable engine (in the sled anyways) and they are light weight. what I dont like is the gearbox is one more thing to fail, and there's a whole lota electrical that if it quits the engine quits along with it.
I know the kitfox guys have been running the yamaha apex engines with good success but I havent seen any cubs running them, is anyone aware a cub running an apex engine?
 
for example I'm not sure if Wag already incorporates a cabin X brace or not. also like I said I'm shooting for a 2300 gross but wag suggests 2200 so I assume that will require some extra tube's somewhere.

I missed your January post, but by now you should have the plans. No x brace, but easy to add.

Looking forward to watching you start where I was about a year ago ;).

BTW, I have been tempted by Yamaha conversions. I decided if I were to go to all that trouble of making a conversion work, I'd rather spend that time learning how to overhaul an O-360 and put modern ignition on it. That's probably my conservative bent, though. I've seen too many conversion projects go on for years.

Vic
 
I have the plan's and many hours staring at them logged now. I found a number of thing's I will be changing, but with that said I'm considering buying the material kit from Wag now mainly for the pre-made fittings and with the thing I want to change I think I will have less wasted tubing by cutting and coping it myself rather then getting a kit from VR3. one thing for sure I will be doing is the X brace which is easy like you said but I really want to do the larger cargo like they do on the pa12's, heres a picture of a 12 that Mike at msc done. I havent looked at the STC yet but from his pictures it looks pretty straight foward to do.

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I Cant convince myself having no redundancy on the yamaha engine being okay, especially where I live and for that reason alone I think building my own O-360 bassed engine is going to be the route I go, for the cost saving its worth learning and buying the necessary tools. I'm not new to engine building in general just aviation specific so hopefully that wont be a hard transition and any excuse to buy tools I'm all for, even when I don't have an excuse I still buy them. the 12,000 pound 36"x144" lathe in my garage is evidence of that haha.
 

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Well I've been staring at these prints a lot lately trying to plan everything out, so I'd like some opinions on widening the fuselage. Option #1 seems like the easiest way would be to just widen the top fixture at station 2 from 39.5" to 42.5 this has the least cascading effect. Option #2 widening the bottom fixture at station 2 as well from 30" to 33" would make leg room a little better, my problem here is I'm widening the lift strut attach points at station 3. now I could do the math and figure out how much that would be affected and add that distance to the spar carry through tubes in the top structure, that I think would keep all the strut geometry the same so I can still use PA14 struts. or I can go all out with Option #3, add 3 inches to both station 2 & 3 for the upper half , station 2 & 4 for the lower half and also 3 inches up at the spar attach points. at that point its only a matter of the tail section being at a different taper, which isnt hard to figure out id just build that as I went kinda thing, as long as the tail post is in the correct spot it should be good. also I'm not sure about windsheild fitment going the with option #3. I'm a pretty good fabricator so none of these really concern me work wise and I'd like to go with option 3 honestly, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something here thats going to cause me a huge headache later on.

here's part of the plans so you can see the stations and measurements I'm talking about.
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A few thoughts, what you do at the lift strut mount you do with both spar positions. Keep the geometry the same so you do not cascade out from there.
At your shoulder height, work at developing a nice curve from the cowling to a desired width for shoulders and sweep this back so it flows nice. This can be a similar width change or wider than the upper and lower change is.
This though should be carried at the lower rails as well, if the lift strut position is widened 3 or 6 inches the stations fore and aft of that do not need to be that same amount. Obviously the gear mounts need some thought.
 
As for cascading effect, a couple more items that won't fit. I used a stock Jack screw tower, added electric trim. The tower is made to fit the tapered upper longerons. When I slid mine to the point where all four of the legs touched the tubes, it was exactly where it needed to be. You will need to make the tower yourself, not a big deal but something to think about. The location of the control horns on the tail feathers may be an issue; seems to me the fit is pretty close. Build the fuselage first and fit the tail feathers to it. Widening at Station 2 will result in the stock windshield not fitting; something you will need to deal with. Really not sure about the struts, but if you widen by 3" I wonder if the struts will fit. You will likely need to make a set yourself. I didn't want to hassle building my own struts even though I have perfectly good PA12 struts with small barrels. I was going to add the heavier forks and make them into sealed struts but decided against it for time issues and bought a set of new, sealed struts. I still have that old set in my shop. Those are the issues I can think of off the top of my head.

Marty
 
The back country rev 2 compensated for TALLER fuselage by making lower STRUT ATTACH fittings longer.... got the job done I guess. Not sure how that will hold up when you flip and bend a strut, probably going to bend those. So don’t flip....


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thanks charlie, keeping the gear fittings inline slipped my mind somehow , even though this will primarily be a float plane it would be embarrassing to build a bush plane that cant go on wheels or ski's!

I thought about that jack screw tower Marty, admittedly from looking over your build pictures again earlier looking for things that will change. Your website has been a HUGE help, Thanks.

Mike I hope I never flip any plane especially this one when its built.

anyone know how wide the air frame Alaska 4 place PA18 is? I recall Paul Claus say he thinks his has a c172 windshield. that or a 182 might be an option for me, I'd probably have to shape the panel and boot cowl accordingly to fit the cessna windshield. there's both a 172 and 182 around me so I might go size them up and take some measurement's , the 172 is currently getting a new windshield if I'm lucky the old one might not be trashed yet.
 
I had not thought about the Cessna screens, my build is 44 wide at the front of the doors and 46 at the rear.

For fitment of the horizontal you can put some curve to the longerons so the last bay remains original dimensions or close to at least.
 
I seen a picture the other day labeled as a 4 place javron pa18 fuselage, so I went looking on the site and never found anything about it. is jay infact doing the 4 place's ? if he is selling as a kit I'd seriously consider it I've heard nothing but good about him/javron.

Also while I was roaming around on the javron site I came across the front spar butt hinge brackets with a 1/4" rise built in to give more angle of incidence . has anyone used them ? would help get the 14 closer to an 18 angle.
 
There were a number of 4 place fuselages on display at Oshkosh this year, I walked by them a number of times but never got a chance to stop in.
 
Yes, Jay has a 4 place super cub design. He had the first one at Osh. If you give him a call, he can fill you on the details.
 
Also while I was roaming around on the javron site I came across the front spar butt hinge brackets with a 1/4" rise built in to give more angle of incidence . has anyone used them ? would help get the 14 closer to an 18 angle.

Here is one of several good threads on angle of incidence:


https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?49165-Best-angle-of-incidence

Take a look at post 56 for a dramatic take on that Javron adapter.

https://www.supercub.org/forum/show...e-of-incidence&p=649807&viewfull=1#post649807

I thought long about simply raising the front hinge point of my 2+2 project 1". According to the drawings that would get the 2+2 incidence to the PA-18 angle. But that would mean double checking the horizontal stabilizer angles, too.

The more I thought about it, the more I realized my mission would be a lot more moderate cross-country than landings at Dewey Moore, so I stuck with the drawing hoping to maintain the design cruise speed.

Vic
 
Jay's 4 seat Super Cub:

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Marty,
You have done what looks like a great job...one comment...die springs...if you use them...make sure to run safety cables...or...TK-1 Shock Monsters....
Ron

I was also stumped trying to figure out where the photo albums are located. This link will take you to the section where that picture is located.

http://www.supercub.org/photopost/s...tle=n18sy-getting-close-to-cover-time&cat=509

I did finish up the patterns for the boot cowl tonight. I need to figure out the spacing for the nut plates before I trim the side pattern where the brown card board meets the white. Great place for card board is Costco and it's free. The card board that separates the levels of boxes on the pallets makes great pattern card board. Lots of different sizes and thicknesses so you need to search. Just take what you need; they are happy to get rid of it.

Marty

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Odd... what’s with the useless firewall tubes outboard of the upper engine mount bolts??? Dead weight?? Use is??


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That jumped out at me too. I wonder if it was to allow for a straight run for the x-brace going to the middle longeron under the door. It does look odd compared to the other 4 place fuselages you can see on the web.

Vic
 
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