building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

RVBottomly · Apr 16, 2020

At about the 50 hour mark for me I switched to cutting the fishmouths with snips and eyeball. I started with longer tubes when there was a 50% chance of messing it up. I could then use it for a shorter tube. After a while my mess up rate dropped to around 5%.

Neat thing about snips is you can stand by the fuselage with the snips in a pocket, cut to fit, and move along. Walking back and forth to a grinder or mill adds up.

I gave up on the mill-in-a lathe approach pretty quickly for the reasons you gave.

Really nice work. I agree, building a fuselage is fun if you can swing the time. Lot of mental stuff going on--lot of checking dimensions over and over and trying to plan ahead. When it flows, it is pretty cool.

Cub junkie · Apr 17, 2020

I built a V block attachment for my lathe to use on a small milling vice that mounts to my compound. It allows me to center any diameter tube pretty quick. I used to spend way too much time setting up to cut angles so I only use it for perpendicular cuts now. After 41 years and many fuselages I can eyeball a joint and get close with silver pencil and various types of hand cutters. I use cheap chinese milling cutters in the lathe with no oil to avoid cleaning up oil mess on tubes. You're on the part that goes fast with satisfying visual progress. Its all those dam tabs, wing/gear fittings and bird cage that takes another 60 hours ~ work, all fun though.

labrador_cub · Apr 29, 2020

not much progress this week, April in Labrador is the best time to spend in the woods, its warm , the lakes are flattened out and the snow is firm so I spent a lot of time on snowmobile.

I did however get the internal diagonal's , including the dog leg'd one, fit and tacked in. I also tacked in a few other tubes I had cut and just held in with tape.

I also had a new toy/ tool show up! I like things that show up it a wooden crate.

I'm running out of room in my shop for tools which in my opinion is a good thing lol so the new brake is currently taking up 2/3 of my bench. I've wanted a decent sized brake for so long but never seemed ready to spend the cash on one, I figured it will get good use on this project so I justified buying it. eventually it will be on its own base on casters but I have to do some shop upgrades/rearranging to fit it.

labrador_cub · Jul 19, 2020

been a while since I have posted but I'm not dead, haven't been at the build because summer came so that means getting work done around the house and camp. as well as doing some fishing and of course float flying!

Figured I'd show a few pictures of some of my flying this year, I know a few of you have been up this way before and understand why I'm building a plane that will primarily be a float plane with some ski use and probably never see wheels but for those of you that haven't been around here you will see all there is is water and trees haha. this was the first year I also got the PA12 up before the ice went out completely, these pic's of the ice are from June 7th so short summers up here as you can imagine.

the only problem with this is the more I fly tandem the more I want to keep flying tandem, and I've been talking to my passengers about it and no one dislikes it. actually one friend I finally got up for a ride is also a pilot and flies a side by side seat bushcaddy, it was his first time in a tandem plane and he went as far to say he prefers it even being in the back being able to look out both sides of the plane. so now I'm thinking about making the new plane a tandem seat, I know there is at least one other wag 2+2 built this way.

Olibuilt · Jul 20, 2020

Tandem would make a 2+2 a very nice plane! Just put a 2 persons removable rear seat. Could be a cargo monster.

Just like I was talking to you about:

https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?55400-Bushwacker-2-0-a-k-a-Cub-Killer/page2

Paul Heinrich · Jul 20, 2020

Then you would have a PA12, the only difference being the elbow room at the front seat would be 4” wider than a 12. With the front seat centered, I’m told that side to side visibility isn’t so good.

And I would love to see how that massive door was engineered and placed in post #155.

Southern Aero · Jul 21, 2020

Just look at a bare stock Maule fuselage........... I liked so much I used it in my stretch. You can make out the truss on the far side

Cub junkie · Jul 21, 2020

About 22 years ago on a Wag 2+2 I put in a PA18 torque tube and elevator cable runs, for the ailerons I used PA12 cable runs. The owner bought it as a project and decided the front was too cramped for him. The Wag plans drawn torque tube and cable runs are OK but a little rube goldberg for me. I also put a Crosswinds STOL type door on the right side and deleted the door on the left. The owner worked on it hot and heavy for several years then took a job flying for a foreign carrier and put it in storage. Haven't heard from him since. Kind of disappointing as I wanted to see him finish it. The front seat of a PA14 is for married people or people that really like each other. I like what Mauleguy did with his Maule build, center front seat.

Southern Aero · Jul 21, 2020

I'm doing just about the same thing on this 2+2/PA12 clone. SC torque tube with wider single front seat and a removable rear seat. The owner is a pretty healthy guy. The 14 is a little tight for 2 & 2, guess that's one reason they only made them for a year. I like Mauleguy's heel brakes too but cant talk this owner into it

RVBottomly · Jul 21, 2020

I think I'm going with a single stick in the middle, much like Paul Claus's 4 place super cub. Down the road, if I want tandem seating, I think it would be a relatively small change to the rudder pedals.

For the time being I'm sticking to side-by-side. My petite wife would be my most likely passenger.

jprax · Jul 22, 2020

I have a 2+2 ( I did not build it) but I don't think the center stick idea would work. The seats are really close. I can't see getting your knees out of the way. Even just pulling the flap handle is tight. You can't have personal space issues and ride in the front. Glad your wife will be your passenger, that is a big reason I bought mine. I knew she wouldn't care to just sit and stare at the back of my head from the back seat.

labrador_cub · Jul 22, 2020

Southern Aero said:
I'm doing just about the same thing on this 2+2/PA12 clone. SC torque tube with wider single front seat and a removable rear seat. The owner is a pretty healthy guy. The 14 is a little tight for 2 & 2, guess that's one reason they only made them for a year. I like Mauleguy's heel brakes too but cant talk this owner into it

thats what I've been thinking to, wider more comfortable front seat with a shortened sc torque tube, rear stick when installed will be at and angle but when removed along with the rear seat I'll still have plently of floor space for cargo or taking a nap. Ill still have my dual controls that way which is one thing I dont like about my PA12, everything was removed last rebuild.

labrador_cub · Sep 28, 2020

I'M BACK! after a not long enough summer I got done what I needed to do outside such as siding on my garage at home , a ton of work down at the cabin including putting in a new seaplane launch. as well as just enjoying being able to fly, go in boat , fish and drink beers.

but fall is here and yesterday was a cold rainy night so I got back at the pa14 after 0 work for over 3 months, I added the last 2 diagonal tubes at the tail of the plane ( until I make up my mind on a tailwheel suspension setup.) and finally got to pull the fuselage out of the jig blocks and start the final welding on the bottom section, i managed to get one side all welded that I could reach with the fuselage up right. need to make the decision on removing the build table and building a rotisserie now and jigging the top from the floor. or just do the welding here like this and keeping the table to build the top half.

labrador_cub · Oct 25, 2020

well I hit another small milestone , I got this section of the fuselage finish welded.

not much new as far a picture wise.

but it did take flight in a way to free up some space on the table so I have a flat surface to build the square for the upper section. might also build the vertical stab so I can get that on to make 100% sure the tailpost is where I want it, I left that partly welded just in case I need to adjust something.

Joey.

skywagon8a · Oct 26, 2020

labrador_cub said:
..might also build the vertical stab so I can get that on to make 100% sure the tailpost is where I want it
Joey.

Since you are eventually planning to put this on floats, you might consider increasing the area of this vertical stab. Move the leading edge forward, increase the height. Of course increasing the height will also require changing the rudder height. Doing this will improve the stability.

Alternatively you may have to add a ventral fin under the fuselage or on the horizontal stabilizers. Just something for you to consider at this stage of construction. Several options for whatever suits you.

labrador_cub · Oct 26, 2020

I'm glad you brought that up, I do plan on going bigger with the vertical where this will primarily be a float plane, my 12 doesn't have a ventral fin and I find it flies okay but the other 12's Ive been around never had one either so I might be missing out on something good haha. also this 14 will have longer floats if I extend a set of 2000's which seems like whats going to end up happening, not sure how that effects the flight characteristics but none the less its easy to add vertical now and I don't want a ventral fin if at all possible, I've been close to hitting the tail of the 12 more then once on docks and usually rocks so I don't need anything hanging lower.

anyone have any input on how far I should extend the vertical, I was thinking 3" and 3".

also while we are in the tail of the plane, anyone know the stroke of the jack screw for the trim? I can find the degrees of trim no problem but not the stroke in inches. trying to pick out a linear actuator for the trim. also would a 330Lb force be enough or should I get a 450 pound, the 450 pound is an extra .7# heavier so I'd like to go with the 330# force if possible.

Dave Calkins · Oct 26, 2020

My Dads -14 on 2000 EDO floats was fine, but adding surfboards strapped to the struts made me pay attention. Not scary, just required a bit more footwork to fly straight in cruise when the air wasnt smooth.

More vertical fin/dorsal fin could maybe blanket the flow to the horizontal stab in uncoordinated flight. Probably not an issue, as Wayne Mackeys latest SQ’s have more dorsal fin nowadays than they did in the past.

Maybe finlets like the Champs/Citabrias/Scouts have? mounted onto the top of the Horizontal?

skywagon8a · Oct 26, 2020

Joey,
I understand why in some circumstances the ventral fin gets in the way. Thus why many take it off. This even though it is required on the type certificate. There is an STC to remove it by utilizing a spring arrangement as a substitute. The springs are only band-aids for the real issue of not enough tail. When the plane is operated at or near the aft CG limit it has a tendency to fishtail, which even if you don't notice it makes you constantly to be moving the controls. I find this tiresome. If you are going to square or otherwise extend your wings, that will increase the instability some amount. More wing span requires more tail volume to compensate.

The wings on my widebody Cub have been squared and extended 2 feet (1 foot each). I found it to be a little unstable requiring constant control motion. So I installed a ventral fin from a Husky. It now flies like a dream. No where near as tiring as it was. Since then I have increased the span 2 more feet with no ill effects.

I didn't experiment with any other device since this fin was available. As Dave mentions, you could install some Citabria like fins on the stabilizer for a similar result.

If you do stretch your 2000s as we discussed a while back you most likely would want more tail as there will be more float further forward which will need compensation.

labrador_cub · Nov 20, 2020

no real progress on the plane other then researching for the linear actuator trim, as luck would have it there was some recent conversation about it on wildcats build that proved to be valuable, never realized a lot of them are rated more for extension then retracting. I think I have one found though. 4 inch stroke ( might need to go longer to get the right degrees where I'm extending the horizontal fwd to match the vertical) and a 1100LB dynamic load capacity.

I did make some shop progress this week, I removed the giant lathe from my shop , the 5x15' of real estate it took up wasn't worth the use it gets so its well oiled and tarped over outside until I can set it up at the shop at my camp. forgot how heavy 15,000 pounds is when ya gota move it with a pry bar!

I also downsized the plane table to 4x8 and did some re arranging of the shop so I can get the fuselage down on some saw horses and still have room to work.

labrador_cub · Dec 7, 2020

been picking at the plane here and there between my real job and other side jobs that come through the door. I got the top done and started to line it up here tonight, its pretty close but not 100% where I want it.

x brace is in, still unsure why this isn't in the wag plans by now.

Fuselage leveled up on the floor

my pretty crude jig, I'm not a carpenter by any means but it does the job. also I like using 3 points of contact when I can, keeps things from rocking while playing with the shims during fine adjustment.

RVBottomly · Dec 7, 2020

labrador_cub said:
x brace is in, still unsure why this isn't in the wag plans by now.

Because they have never changed the plans, as far as I can tell!

Nice progress. I just recently readjusted (as in grind off and make new ones....) my wing hinges because they had drifted off when I put in the X-brace. Good idea to do it first.

One suggestion if you haven't already thought about it. Stick a tube into the rudder post, make sure it is vertical, and attach a wooden stick horizontally on it--mark off the distance between the upper tubes (US-2,3 on the drawing) on the stick (27.5" centers as I recall) so 13.75" extends both sides of the rudder location. It makes an easy double check to sight down them to the stick to make sure alignment is right. 1/64" off over 140+ inches from wing attach to tail amounts to over 2 inches. Aligning over the long distance is quite precise.

labrador_cub · Dec 7, 2020

Thanks Vic that sounds like a good idea, I'm all for any ideas on making things easier and more accurate. Like you said measuring over a long distance is best, if it was practical to do it i'd have the wings already bolted to the upper section before welding so I could measure from wing tip to tail post so its perfect, but that would probably be more of a nightmare then it would be worth, after all this is only a 90mph floatplane....

Southern Aero · Dec 7, 2020

You might tack weld in some temporary diagonal supports from the lower longerons, (or uppers since you haven't cut them out yet), to the tubes between the attach points to hold assembly in place after its located in place. Then tack weld all your other supports in place at the same time keeping an eye on the mounts. Once all located, weld everything with the diagonals in place, then remove diagonals. ............ FWIW

Looks nice!

labrador_cub · Dec 11, 2020

I made a goal this week to put at least 1 hour into the plane after work for this week of work, on day 3 and have 6 hrs logged so I'm doing good. managed to get the top lined up and and 6 tubes installed. I never got to use your trick southern aero , when I welded up the top on the bench it developed a very slight twist that didn't show sitting on my bench by rocking, but the starrett level said otherwise! so I leveled the front cross tube first and tacked in the front tubes first. then I leveled the rear cross tube ( I was able to flex the top enough pressing with 2 fingers to do so, so that says how little it was actually twisted. maybe I'm being to picky) and added in the rear door opening tubes. and tonight I got two more tubes installed.

here's where I'm at.

labrador_cub · Dec 11, 2020

Also for those that don't know or forgot, I am doing videos on this build that are a little more detail then my post's because I can talk better then I can type. here is the latest video up now but one that is up to date to 30 min ago is uploading as I type.

RVBottomly · Dec 11, 2020

labrador_cub said:
so I leveled the front cross tube first and tacked in the front tubes first. then I leveled the rear cross tube ( I was able to flex the top enough pressing with 2 fingers to do so, so that says how little it was actually twisted. maybe I'm being to picky)

In the real scheme of things, some might say too picky. But you'll be spending a fair amount of time working on fuselage. Every time you walk in front you'll be tempted to eyeball those tubes. If they are in line, it brings just a touch of joy. If not, a touch of annoyance.

Looks good!

skywagon8a · Dec 12, 2020

labrador_cub said:
! so I leveled the front cross tube first and tacked in the front tubes first. then I leveled the rear cross tube ( I was able to flex the top enough pressing with 2 fingers to do so, so that says how little it was actually twisted. maybe I'm being to picky)

Being picky in these matters is the same as Bill Rusk watching ounces. An ounce here, an ounce there adds up to pounds. A picky here, a picky there adds up to a straight well built airplane. A straight well built airplane flies better than one that is just slapped together. Keep up the good work.

Marty57 · Dec 12, 2020

Your jig set up is pretty similar to mine. I found that using lots of plumb bobs really helped with the accuracy when setting the top deck in place. Here's a few shots of when I welded up the top structure on my 2+2 fuselage. Yours is looking good!

Marty57

Cub junkie · Dec 12, 2020

When I built one of those 2+2 fuselages I did the cabin top in a jig just as you did. I welded .050 caps on the carry through members and it made life easier when I was really standing on the pedal welding the wing attach fittings on. Wish I had pictures to share but it was 1990 and I was ten years away from being digital. Great looking progress.

labrador_cub · Dec 14, 2020

Cub junkie said:
I welded .050 caps on the carry through members and it made life easier

I wish I done that as well, will do that before I weld the wing fittings though.

I ended up not going at the plane yesterday due to a pretty busy day in the mine but my goal was 1 hr a day after work and I've done 2 hrs every other day and today so I'm still way ahead!

here's some progress pics up till now, tonight I started to make the front X ( whats the proper name for this if there is one?)

also does anyone else have the problem of every flat surface somehow getting covered seemingly overnight on its own?!

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