building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14
- Thread starter labrador_cub
- Start date
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Leg room?
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
Just got back from a trip to Ontario where me and 2 of my friends put over 5000KM on my truck in 6 days, during which I picked up some material for the project.
first stop was aircraft spruce where I got all the tubing.
all the tubing except the 4 longerons fit in the box, I also bought a few small sheets of different thickness 4130 as well. as you can see we also got some non aircraft stuff!
on the way home I stopped in montreal to see olibuilt's supercub and to buy my HD wing spars from him. his plane is even nicer in person!
when the f250 starts to sag thats when its time to head 1200KM back to the woods we call home.
got to stretch our legs during the ferry crossing, for some reason we got a lot of looks haha.
then came the worst part, 570KM of route 389 , the last leg before home which is nothing but turns , hills , bad pavement and even a fair bit of dirt road!
first stop was aircraft spruce where I got all the tubing.
all the tubing except the 4 longerons fit in the box, I also bought a few small sheets of different thickness 4130 as well. as you can see we also got some non aircraft stuff!
on the way home I stopped in montreal to see olibuilt's supercub and to buy my HD wing spars from him. his plane is even nicer in person!
when the f250 starts to sag thats when its time to head 1200KM back to the woods we call home.
got to stretch our legs during the ferry crossing, for some reason we got a lot of looks haha.
then came the worst part, 570KM of route 389 , the last leg before home which is nothing but turns , hills , bad pavement and even a fair bit of dirt road!
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RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I like road trips with a purpose. It feels good to have a supply of stuff to work on.
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
trip was a great break from this little town and you're right it feels good to know I have something to work with now!
sled belongs to one of my buddies, with 9 months of snow here (there's literally snow on the ground now) I grew up riding old sleds and lots of hours working on them so I don't have much desire for them anymore, I prefer a newer more comfortable ride that I dont have to bring a tool kit with me haha.
sled belongs to one of my buddies, with 9 months of snow here (there's literally snow on the ground now) I grew up riding old sleds and lots of hours working on them so I don't have much desire for them anymore, I prefer a newer more comfortable ride that I dont have to bring a tool kit with me haha.
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
The remainder of my tubing showed up and I just finished up building a snow bucket for my loader, need to do some maintenance on the snowmobiles before they start getting heavy use ( already out riding, -26C/ -15F here now) and a few other small jobs then the garage is getting converted into airplane build area!
should of asked this before but better late then never, what are some good books on building? I have ac43.13 and its got a lot of info but I'm sure there's some other books that will help me along this journey, any and all suggestions welcome!
should of asked this before but better late then never, what are some good books on building? I have ac43.13 and its got a lot of info but I'm sure there's some other books that will help me along this journey, any and all suggestions welcome!
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
Get a couple of books by Tony Bingelis: The Sportplane Builder and Sportplane Construction Techniques.
I also found Dave Russo's book very helpful:
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
Well last night I finally got everyone else's work done so before I had someone else show up today I went and picked up some lumber and built my build table. feels good to finally build something towards this project!
framed out the top with 2x6
Didn't think I would get to use the lift on the plane build but its come in handy on day 1.
used 5/8 threaded in the legs for leveling up the table
all framed up
top is just laid on, I need to get my skill saw from my cabin so I can cut the last sheet.
framed out the top with 2x6
Didn't think I would get to use the lift on the plane build but its come in handy on day 1.
used 5/8 threaded in the legs for leveling up the table
all framed up
top is just laid on, I need to get my skill saw from my cabin so I can cut the last sheet.
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Marty57
PATRON
Nipomo, Ca
Trick I learned and used building my 2+2; don't use a chalk line for the center of the table. Paint the table white with a roller than stretch a heavy line down the center, touching the table. Get a can of spray paint, and dust over the string. Remove the string and you will have a perfect, straight line the color of your table. Repaint after each stage of the welding and repaint the center string. Used this in boatbuilding many years ago. I also built my table in three pieces so I could reconfigure as needed during the build.
Marty
Marty
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labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
got my saw today so I was able to finish up the top of my table. i used marty's center line tip.
I also sacrificed a 100' tape and screwed / glued it to the table.
I also used some scraps to build a table to hold my drawings and note books.
I also sacrificed a 100' tape and screwed / glued it to the table.
I also used some scraps to build a table to hold my drawings and note books.
Attachments
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
I made some progress today, i got the table leveled up and I built the jig's for the upper fuselage halves, but due to the lack of info on the plans I'm a little stuck on how to proceed with the longerons.
it doesnt say where the should start to make the bend upwards, you can see I have a block at station 3 but it seems like it should start back further at station 4.
station 4 is the block on an angle.
also it seems like i should heat and put a sharper bend in station 3 ( where the clamp is) to remove the bow the the tube here, it gets cut out for the door opening and I feel like leaving it like this then cutting it out will cause so built up stress to move other things around afterwards.
also I cant for the life of me figure out this block they have at the tail post, I'm assuming you let the tubing relax and sag to the table like it is now, but once its removed from the table it will just go flat and any upwards curves needed should be induced when joining the upper and lower with the jigs latter on. if I'm correct on this I will leave that block out as it makes it harder not having the tubes down in the alignment blocks.
here is the view looking down and the side view so far, if something looks not right let me know please.
it doesnt say where the should start to make the bend upwards, you can see I have a block at station 3 but it seems like it should start back further at station 4.
station 4 is the block on an angle.
also it seems like i should heat and put a sharper bend in station 3 ( where the clamp is) to remove the bow the the tube here, it gets cut out for the door opening and I feel like leaving it like this then cutting it out will cause so built up stress to move other things around afterwards.
also I cant for the life of me figure out this block they have at the tail post, I'm assuming you let the tubing relax and sag to the table like it is now, but once its removed from the table it will just go flat and any upwards curves needed should be induced when joining the upper and lower with the jigs latter on. if I'm correct on this I will leave that block out as it makes it harder not having the tubes down in the alignment blocks.
here is the view looking down and the side view so far, if something looks not right let me know please.
Attachments
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I'd suggest, before setting those bulkheads in position, is to go to sheet #3 and study the dimensions carefully. It took me a while to figure out how the lower longeron between stations 3 and 2 should lay. Note that they have liners in them, which implies splices and sharp bends.
Once I figured out I needed liners, and once I found 11/16 thick-walled tubing that I could turn down a little to fit inside thr 3/4 .035, I started making progress.
What was helpful for me was to actually lay out a real datum line starting front to back, and arrange the blocking so the dimensions match what is in Sheet #3. The tail post is perpendicular to the datum line, so do whatever it takes to get there. I eventually found it easier, after tacking everything else, to level the fuselage according to the datum line and locate the tailpost with plumb bobs.
I can't say for sure, but I thought the dimensions for the bulkheads were off--either locations or height--it's been a couple of years. I gave up trying to force things to fit and relied on sheet #3 as the final say.
Once I figured out I needed liners, and once I found 11/16 thick-walled tubing that I could turn down a little to fit inside thr 3/4 .035, I started making progress.
What was helpful for me was to actually lay out a real datum line starting front to back, and arrange the blocking so the dimensions match what is in Sheet #3. The tail post is perpendicular to the datum line, so do whatever it takes to get there. I eventually found it easier, after tacking everything else, to level the fuselage according to the datum line and locate the tailpost with plumb bobs.
I can't say for sure, but I thought the dimensions for the bulkheads were off--either locations or height--it's been a couple of years. I gave up trying to force things to fit and relied on sheet #3 as the final say.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I forgot to address the upper longeron you are talking about here. I just let it bow and cut it out after welding. It looked fine after that.
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
Thanks Rv i ran a string to represent the datum and it sure makes sheet #3 make more sense. In doing so it made that block at the tail make less sense, from station 4 to 7 the tail is dead straight. most of the bend is at station 4 and a bit on 3.
you can kinda see my datum line here, the aft goes under the table line
I went ahead and heat bent station #3 to curve up and in, there's no cross tube at this location to hold the width after its removed from the table so I wanted it at the correct width while relaxed.
made the shape look better in my opinion to but that's just me
the longeron sits flat on the riser block now to which it never before.
I also got the other side in the jig and bent, nice to make some progress.
you can kinda see my datum line here, the aft goes under the table line
I went ahead and heat bent station #3 to curve up and in, there's no cross tube at this location to hold the width after its removed from the table so I wanted it at the correct width while relaxed.
made the shape look better in my opinion to but that's just me
the longeron sits flat on the riser block now to which it never before.
I also got the other side in the jig and bent, nice to make some progress.
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Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
Hard to make sense out of the 2+2 plans in regard to that fuselage layout. I built a fuselage 22 years ago and lucked out with having a bare PA12 fuselage sitting in the shop to use. I set the 12 fuselage on the table and built the jig to the bottom truss then went from there. I'm not a fan of carpenter work so my upper jigs were 1x1" angle iron mig welded to hold the upper longeron stations. I recommend having the datum line fixed and tight and measure off that. Wish I would have taken pics. That was well before I went digital.
Southern Aero
SPONSOR
kcco/1ga2
Dunno if you have ever seen these "refills" but they work great for just what you are doing. They come in either normal fractions or in tenths of an inch which I prefer since I work mostly in decimals. They are thin and flat. This 50' one is only about $10. I use them on my 4' x 25' fixture along with an old 4' long T square that can be hard to find. An alternate to that is a drywall square available at places like Lowes or Homey Depot. You just have to verify how "square" it is, adjust if necessary and pin in in position.
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RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
A little over 2 years ago I was at this point:
Here is that liner I was talking about on the lower longeron. I turned down a thick-walled 11/16 tube to get a snug fit. It also needed to bent up a little.
Vic[SUB][/SUB]
Here is that liner I was talking about on the lower longeron. I turned down a thick-walled 11/16 tube to get a snug fit. It also needed to bent up a little.
Vic[SUB][/SUB]
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labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
yeah there's a lot to be desired with these plan's, But its better then nothing. I have a lot of fab experience but no experience following plans good or bad. If i had my pa12 here like you had I'd be much more comfortable, I'm used to copying thing's.
That tape would be great, I ended up ripping off the one I had if no one already noticed, every foot it started over the inches so if i wanted 162 inches id have to figure out ts 13 feet 6 inches for example.
hope I have some 11/16 in the shop to turn down the sleeves like you did RV, plans call for 5/8 but I imagine a better fit can be achieved.
That tape would be great, I ended up ripping off the one I had if no one already noticed, every foot it started over the inches so if i wanted 162 inches id have to figure out ts 13 feet 6 inches for example.
hope I have some 11/16 in the shop to turn down the sleeves like you did RV, plans call for 5/8 but I imagine a better fit can be achieved.
Marty57
PATRON
Nipomo, Ca
That's exactly what I did and it worked out well. Good fit and rosette welds and you are good to go.
Marty
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
Go some more progress done this afternoon, would've had the top section done today if I didn't have to make the last diagonal tube 3 times :roll: first one was usable but a little to short for my liking, so I made a second that was the perfect length... but I cut both copes on the same side so then I made a third! that one fit luckily and i looked around the plans the 2 I messed up are just a touch longer then 2 other tubes I need to make so no loss.
I'm surprised how good the ends of my tubes came out
all of the rear tubes are fitted and tacked, tomorrow I will do the two 1/2" tubes connecting the panel location to the firewall then the top section is complete.
I'm surprised how good the ends of my tubes came out
all of the rear tubes are fitted and tacked, tomorrow I will do the two 1/2" tubes connecting the panel location to the firewall then the top section is complete.
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Nice welds, Keep up the good work.
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
Thanks skywagon! its nice to tig weld some 4130 for a change, usually I'm doing aluminum , I like the torch and work piece not being the same temp as the surface of the sun!
I was just looking through RVBottomly's build and seen the post about doublers in the longeron's in front of the tail post, do these only go into the lower longerons or the upper as well, also how long should they be ?
I was just looking through RVBottomly's build and seen the post about doublers in the longeron's in front of the tail post, do these only go into the lower longerons or the upper as well, also how long should they be ?
I put outer sleeves for the doublers in many places on mine. I like that you can weld the parent tube, then the doubler is slid in place. It generally is slit along at least one side, then it is welded. Rosettes are an option as well. Now any diagonals weld onto the generally thicker doubler.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
If you are like me, you'll do that often. I keep all mis-cut or otherwise screwed-up parts in a bin. You'll find a use for most of them eventually.
Very nice welding!
Vic
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
I borrowed those doublers from the supercub drawings. I only did the lower longerons. It seemed wise given that the 2+2 is longer and heavier than a supercub.
RVBottomly
PATRON
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
BTW, drawing 12183 shows the liners.
http://www.supercubproject.com/drawings/pdfs/A3250006.pdf
Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app
http://www.supercubproject.com/drawings/pdfs/A3250006.pdf
Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app
labrador_cub
Registered User
Wabush,NL
Thanks RV looks like a Liner around 9 inches should do he job.
Curious on everyone's opinion on this, a liner inside the tube seems like a nice place for corrosion to form between the layers of metal, and this being primarily built for seaplane use which means a a tail that gets very wet very frequently. in a perfect world that should never get inside the tube's but I hate rust, I'm considering spraying the liner and inside the longeron with a weld through primer like is used on sheetmetal in auto body repair, it might not help but then again it might. am I missing any reason why I shouldn't do this?
Curious on everyone's opinion on this, a liner inside the tube seems like a nice place for corrosion to form between the layers of metal, and this being primarily built for seaplane use which means a a tail that gets very wet very frequently. in a perfect world that should never get inside the tube's but I hate rust, I'm considering spraying the liner and inside the longeron with a weld through primer like is used on sheetmetal in auto body repair, it might not help but then again it might. am I missing any reason why I shouldn't do this?
Southern Aero
SPONSOR
kcco/1ga2
It cant rust internally unless moisture gets in someway. If sealed, no problem. Traditionally oiling the tubes internally will prevent any corrosion. I recently opened up a 1929 Stinson longeron for repair and found it perfect internally with what looked like burnt motor oil but still a thin fluid, no linseed. I have always use some form of linseed oil even tho TubeSeal can be hard to find now but any form of a thin oil should work fine. ……… there are several on the market. The idea was the linseed oil will seal any small opening in the welds thus stop the tube from "breathing" which would introduce moisture.
