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Thread: building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

  1. #41
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    Thanks skywagon thats good info to know, I was planning on a 2300LB gross so I'm glad to hear I can use the 2000's with some modification.

    I made a small amount of progress Yesterday with this project, I finally got around to ordering the plans from Wag Aero. excited for them to show up, I bought the northland L21 drawings about a year ago and spent a whole day going through the drawings geeking out. I'm sure once I get them I'll be asking about what area's should be improved on, for example I'm not sure if Wag already incorporates a cabin X brace or not. also like I said I'm shooting for a 2300 gross but wag suggests 2200 so I assume that will require some extra tube's somewhere.
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  2. #42
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I seem to recall that EDO also lengthened the spreader bars for more stability. If needed, I can look for the drawing to find the dimensions. I would think that that would be your call.
    N1PA

  3. #43
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    still doing planning on this build, trying to figure out what I want to use for an engine. I got a quote from aero sport for a 195HP 0-375 and wow talk about sticker shock! no doubt they are probably great engine's but it's hard for me to justify the extra price for 15 more HP vs a stock O-360 which can be had pretty easy. I've never really considered any of the non aircraft engine's But after getting that price and having a friend of mine finishing up his murphy rebel build using a turbo Yamaha apex snowmobile engine its starting to appeal to me, being in the land of snow we can get these engines pretty easy, they make great power when turbo'd ( 200hp+) , they are a reliable engine (in the sled anyways) and they are light weight. what I dont like is the gearbox is one more thing to fail, and there's a whole lota electrical that if it quits the engine quits along with it.
    I know the kitfox guys have been running the yamaha apex engines with good success but I havent seen any cubs running them, is anyone aware a cub running an apex engine?

  4. #44
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrador_cub View Post
    for example I'm not sure if Wag already incorporates a cabin X brace or not. also like I said I'm shooting for a 2300 gross but wag suggests 2200 so I assume that will require some extra tube's somewhere.
    I missed your January post, but by now you should have the plans. No x brace, but easy to add.

    Looking forward to watching you start where I was about a year ago .

    BTW, I have been tempted by Yamaha conversions. I decided if I were to go to all that trouble of making a conversion work, I'd rather spend that time learning how to overhaul an O-360 and put modern ignition on it. That's probably my conservative bent, though. I've seen too many conversion projects go on for years.

    Vic

  5. #45
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    I have the plan's and many hours staring at them logged now. I found a number of thing's I will be changing, but with that said I'm considering buying the material kit from Wag now mainly for the pre-made fittings and with the thing I want to change I think I will have less wasted tubing by cutting and coping it myself rather then getting a kit from VR3. one thing for sure I will be doing is the X brace which is easy like you said but I really want to do the larger cargo like they do on the pa12's, heres a picture of a 12 that Mike at msc done. I havent looked at the STC yet but from his pictures it looks pretty straight foward to do.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I Cant convince myself having no redundancy on the yamaha engine being okay, especially where I live and for that reason alone I think building my own O-360 bassed engine is going to be the route I go, for the cost saving its worth learning and buying the necessary tools. I'm not new to engine building in general just aviation specific so hopefully that wont be a hard transition and any excuse to buy tools I'm all for, even when I don't have an excuse I still buy them. the 12,000 pound 36"x144" lathe in my garage is evidence of that haha.

  6. #46
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    The pic looks like the Charly Center door. Easy to do both sides on the 2+2.

  7. #47
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    Well I've been staring at these prints a lot lately trying to plan everything out, so I'd like some opinions on widening the fuselage. Option #1 seems like the easiest way would be to just widen the top fixture at station 2 from 39.5" to 42.5 this has the least cascading effect. Option #2 widening the bottom fixture at station 2 as well from 30" to 33" would make leg room a little better, my problem here is I'm widening the lift strut attach points at station 3. now I could do the math and figure out how much that would be affected and add that distance to the spar carry through tubes in the top structure, that I think would keep all the strut geometry the same so I can still use PA14 struts. or I can go all out with Option #3, add 3 inches to both station 2 & 3 for the upper half , station 2 & 4 for the lower half and also 3 inches up at the spar attach points. at that point its only a matter of the tail section being at a different taper, which isnt hard to figure out id just build that as I went kinda thing, as long as the tail post is in the correct spot it should be good. also I'm not sure about windsheild fitment going the with option #3. I'm a pretty good fabricator so none of these really concern me work wise and I'd like to go with option 3 honestly, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something here thats going to cause me a huge headache later on.

    here's part of the plans so you can see the stations and measurements I'm talking about.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #48

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    A few thoughts, what you do at the lift strut mount you do with both spar positions. Keep the geometry the same so you do not cascade out from there.
    At your shoulder height, work at developing a nice curve from the cowling to a desired width for shoulders and sweep this back so it flows nice. This can be a similar width change or wider than the upper and lower change is.
    This though should be carried at the lower rails as well, if the lift strut position is widened 3 or 6 inches the stations fore and aft of that do not need to be that same amount. Obviously the gear mounts need some thought.

  9. #49
    Marty57's Avatar
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    As for cascading effect, a couple more items that won't fit. I used a stock Jack screw tower, added electric trim. The tower is made to fit the tapered upper longerons. When I slid mine to the point where all four of the legs touched the tubes, it was exactly where it needed to be. You will need to make the tower yourself, not a big deal but something to think about. The location of the control horns on the tail feathers may be an issue; seems to me the fit is pretty close. Build the fuselage first and fit the tail feathers to it. Widening at Station 2 will result in the stock windshield not fitting; something you will need to deal with. Really not sure about the struts, but if you widen by 3" I wonder if the struts will fit. You will likely need to make a set yourself. I didn't want to hassle building my own struts even though I have perfectly good PA12 struts with small barrels. I was going to add the heavier forks and make them into sealed struts but decided against it for time issues and bought a set of new, sealed struts. I still have that old set in my shop. Those are the issues I can think of off the top of my head.

    Marty
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    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  10. #50
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

    The back country rev 2 compensated for TALLER fuselage by making lower STRUT ATTACH fittings longer.... got the job done I guess. Not sure how that will hold up when you flip and bend a strut, probably going to bend those. So don’t flip....


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  11. #51
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    thanks charlie, keeping the gear fittings inline slipped my mind somehow , even though this will primarily be a float plane it would be embarrassing to build a bush plane that cant go on wheels or ski's!

    I thought about that jack screw tower Marty, admittedly from looking over your build pictures again earlier looking for things that will change. Your website has been a HUGE help, Thanks.

    Mike I hope I never flip any plane especially this one when its built.

    anyone know how wide the air frame Alaska 4 place PA18 is? I recall Paul Claus say he thinks his has a c172 windshield. that or a 182 might be an option for me, I'd probably have to shape the panel and boot cowl accordingly to fit the cessna windshield. there's both a 172 and 182 around me so I might go size them up and take some measurement's , the 172 is currently getting a new windshield if I'm lucky the old one might not be trashed yet.

  12. #52

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    I had not thought about the Cessna screens, my build is 44 wide at the front of the doors and 46 at the rear.

    For fitment of the horizontal you can put some curve to the longerons so the last bay remains original dimensions or close to at least.
    Thanks pfm thanked for this post

  13. #53
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    I seen a picture the other day labeled as a 4 place javron pa18 fuselage, so I went looking on the site and never found anything about it. is jay infact doing the 4 place's ? if he is selling as a kit I'd seriously consider it I've heard nothing but good about him/javron.

    Also while I was roaming around on the javron site I came across the front spar butt hinge brackets with a 1/4" rise built in to give more angle of incidence . has anyone used them ? would help get the 14 closer to an 18 angle.
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  14. #54

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    There were a number of 4 place fuselages on display at Oshkosh this year, I walked by them a number of times but never got a chance to stop in.

  15. #55

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    Yes, Jay has a 4 place super cub design. He had the first one at Osh. If you give him a call, he can fill you on the details.

  16. #56
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrador_cub View Post

    Also while I was roaming around on the javron site I came across the front spar butt hinge brackets with a 1/4" rise built in to give more angle of incidence . has anyone used them ? would help get the 14 closer to an 18 angle.
    Here is one of several good threads on angle of incidence:


    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...e-of-incidence

    Take a look at post 56 for a dramatic take on that Javron adapter.

    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...l=1#post649807

    I thought long about simply raising the front hinge point of my 2+2 project 1". According to the drawings that would get the 2+2 incidence to the PA-18 angle. But that would mean double checking the horizontal stabilizer angles, too.

    The more I thought about it, the more I realized my mission would be a lot more moderate cross-country than landings at Dewey Moore, so I stuck with the drawing hoping to maintain the design cruise speed.

    Vic
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  17. #57
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
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    Jay's 4 seat Super Cub:

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  18. #58

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    Marty,
    You have done what looks like a great job...one comment...die springs...if you use them...make sure to run safety cables...or...TK-1 Shock Monsters....
    Ron

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty57 View Post
    I was also stumped trying to figure out where the photo albums are located. This link will take you to the section where that picture is located.

    http://www.supercub.org/photopost/sh...r-time&cat=509

    I did finish up the patterns for the boot cowl tonight. I need to figure out the spacing for the nut plates before I trim the side pattern where the brown card board meets the white. Great place for card board is Costco and it's free. The card board that separates the levels of boxes on the pallets makes great pattern card board. Lots of different sizes and thicknesses so you need to search. Just take what you need; they are happy to get rid of it.

    Marty

    Attachment 39706 Attachment 39707

  19. #59
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubus Maximus View Post
    Jay's 4 seat Super Cub:

    Odd... what’s with the useless firewall tubes outboard of the upper engine mount bolts??? Dead weight?? Use is??


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  20. #60
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Odd... what’s with the useless firewall tubes outboard of the upper engine mount bolts??? Dead weight?? Use is??


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    That jumped out at me too. I wonder if it was to allow for a straight run for the x-brace going to the middle longeron under the door. It does look odd compared to the other 4 place fuselages you can see on the web.

    Vic
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  21. #61
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Ron,
    Planning on safety cables. Not familiar TK 1 Shock Monsters.
    Marty
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  22. #62
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Odd... what’s with the useless firewall tubes outboard of the upper engine mount bolts??? Dead weight?? Use is??
    Leg room?
    N1PA

  23. #63
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    Just got back from a trip to Ontario where me and 2 of my friends put over 5000KM on my truck in 6 days, during which I picked up some material for the project.

    first stop was aircraft spruce where I got all the tubing.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    all the tubing except the 4 longerons fit in the box, I also bought a few small sheets of different thickness 4130 as well. as you can see we also got some non aircraft stuff!

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    on the way home I stopped in montreal to see olibuilt's supercub and to buy my HD wing spars from him. his plane is even nicer in person!

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    when the f250 starts to sag thats when its time to head 1200KM back to the woods we call home.

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    got to stretch our legs during the ferry crossing, for some reason we got a lot of looks haha.

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    then came the worst part, 570KM of route 389 , the last leg before home which is nothing but turns , hills , bad pavement and even a fair bit of dirt road!

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  24. #64
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I like road trips with a purpose. It feels good to have a supply of stuff to work on.

  25. #65

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    Looks like you will be at home all winter now, except for when out playing on your new classic sled.

  26. #66
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    trip was a great break from this little town and you're right it feels good to know I have something to work with now!

    sled belongs to one of my buddies, with 9 months of snow here (there's literally snow on the ground now) I grew up riding old sleds and lots of hours working on them so I don't have much desire for them anymore, I prefer a newer more comfortable ride that I dont have to bring a tool kit with me haha.

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