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ways to secure a floatplane

CubDriver218

CubDriver218

Registered User
Minnesota
I'm wondering about all the decent options to secure a float plane. I would like to visit my in laws, however there''s no decent beach, The dock won't work, I really don't want o leave the plane floating so it has me wondering about the good options.
Are there any reasonably priced manual lifts you guys recommend?
I have some auger type tie downs, and thought of perhaps backing the plane up as far as I can go then putting a log under the back of the floats so hopefully it's making contact with the ground then tie the tail and wings off. I thought the log would be a good idea, but I don't believe the keel goes back that far on the floats and I certainly don't want to damage the floats.
any ideas, pictures of interesting techniques, or any advice you want to share would be awesome. I do not have a lot of experience with this as thus far I've only been to places that have nice docks, or decent beaches.
 
For years mine tied off to sunken anchors that had ropes and buoys tied on. Pull in, spin the plane around, loop the aft ropes on cleats, then walk forward for the bow cleats/ropes, which pulled the plane a couple of feet away from the bank. To get back on I'd pull the plane in a little by the tail and hop on. Unhook the fronts and bring the plane back for passengers to load, then shove off. Bow anchors and ropes from shore to the aft cleats would work the same. Probably better.
 
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Anything to kill AOA is a good thing.Car tires make a nice heel cushion. I used to pump my front compartments half full when a big blow was coming.

Glenn
 
CubDriver218 said:
I'm wondering about all the decent options to secure a float plane. I would like to visit my in laws, however there''s no decent beach, The dock won't work, I really don't want o leave the plane floating so it has me wondering about the good options.
Are there any reasonably priced manual lifts you guys recommend?
I have some auger type tie downs, and thought of perhaps backing the plane up as far as I can go then putting a log under the back of the floats so hopefully it's making contact with the ground then tie the tail and wings off. I thought the log would be a good idea, but I don't believe the keel goes back that far on the floats and I certainly don't want to damage the floats.
any ideas, pictures of interesting techniques, or any advice you want to share would be awesome. I do not have a lot of experience with this as thus far I've only been to places that have nice docks, or decent beaches.
Click to expand...

Not sure I follow all of your ideas but just be careful how you tie the wings. Any sort of an anchor to the wings can shock the structure if the waves start hitting it.
I rarely ever tie the wings; just the floats, and with lots of rope tied well away to the sides so that it is held firmly from swinging.
Get the tail as high up the bank as you can to reduce the AOA.

Best is to get the in-laws to build you a wood ramp to park on. They’re the best thing going once you get used to them.
Only down side I know of is that they can get slippery....:crazyeyes:
 
I’ll second the notion of building a ramp there. Doesn’t cost much, will protect your floats nicely, makes arriving and departing much easier on you and the plane......what’s not to like?

Only down one side may be if there are big water level fluctuations there, like frequently. I kept a Cub and a Beaver on a floating ramp in very windy country for years, where the bottom and banks are pure jagged rock. Works great.

I agree on securing your tie downs to the floats. Easier to reach, and if the plane departs the floats, you have other problems.

MTV
 
Ramps can work rivets if you are going up and on them all the time. There are docks with lifts also...

One good way to help keep her stable with winds is five gallon buckets tied just below the water line. When she rocks it bucket comes up and adds weight as it lifts. Works as a shock as it does not have an abrupt snap.

If you build a dock it would not be hard to have some sort of sunken platform under the keels so it lifts the plane ever so slightly, and pull strait through. It could be anchored to pivot into the wind if you need to, and keep the plane from sinking even in storms.
 
Never had any rivets work on floats that got ramped daily. Go to Kenmore.....those planes all get ramped daily. Not to say rivets don’t loosen sometimes, but I suspect rough water does more of that than ramping.

A good ramp is a great and simple way to park airplanes. Docks can get expensive and complicated, especially ones with lifts.

MTV
 
must be nice to spend your flying career with government money keeping everything perfect all the time.

Some of us make do with older equipment, which tend to have slightly more troubles.

You can not continue to flex aluminum structure on and off a ramp without causing some stress and joint movement- eventually working rivets. Just like gear boxes in cessna birds, enough rough stuff and you will have smoking rivets.

Might net be all the time, but one must keep an eye on water levels inside the floats.
 
Float planes in Alaska are in the harshest conditions, especially when in salt water. Those in SE Alaska are mostly on floating ramps. They live there and work well, rivets do not seem to leak or work as they are simply driven slightly on the sloped ramp. Most ramps in the water end up with growth, so slick and not much needed to power up them a bit to be secure/tied down. And very safe sitting there.
Old ones, newer ones, all seem the same.
Just do not flex that much under these circumstances. As Mike says, most of the flex is from rough water, far harder on floats than a ramp. Ramp is slow speed undertaking, bouncing from wave to wave is far more conducive to loose rivets.

And to really fix all that if truly concerned, just get a set of Aerocets, no rivets!
John
 
Government money comes with no guarantee of always working!



aktango58 said:
must be nice to spend your flying career with government money keeping everything perfect all the time.

Some of us make do with older equipment, which tend to have slightly more troubles.

You can not continue to flex aluminum structure on and off a ramp without causing some stress and joint movement- eventually working rivets. Just like gear boxes in cessna birds, enough rough stuff and you will have smoking rivets.

Might net be all the time, but one must keep an eye on water levels inside the floats.
Click to expand...
 
aktango58 said:
must be nice to spend your flying career with government money keeping everything perfect all the time.

Some of us make do with older equipment, which tend to have slightly more troubles.

You can not continue to flex aluminum structure on and off a ramp without causing some stress and joint movement- eventually working rivets. Just like gear boxes in cessna birds, enough rough stuff and you will have smoking rivets.

Might net be all the time, but one must keep an eye on water levels inside the floats.
Click to expand...

Yeah, George....I flew some new airplanes, like a 1952 Beaver with ~ 15,000 hours, all on floats, a couple early sixties 180s, early 185s and a Super Cub that pretty much lived in and out of salt water since 1969, and the floats on that plane, which had been in Kodiak since 1956 finally got new bottoms in 1984. I have no idea how many hours those floats had on them, but they didn’t leak, even then.

Yes, we took care of our airplanes, as do all the commercial operators who last very long in Alaska, at least the parts of Alaska where I worked. The others’ airplanes spent more time down for maintenance than flying, and airplanes don’t make money sitting in a maintenance hangar.

Go spend some time in Kodiak, and visit the City Dock, with its ramps, or as I noted earlier, Kenmore, where every airplane comes out of the water every night, via a ramp.

As to pumping the floats, are you implying that you don’t pump your floats every day? That’s always been SOP for every float pilot I know.

As John pointed out, ramping a floatplane is actually a very gentle procedure, unless the pilot is a dolt. It can be a heck of a lot gentler than docking is sometimes, especially in a wind. But, no pilot I ever watched ramp a seaplane rammed the ramp hard enough to loosen rivets.

But, maybe you never learned the technique....

MTV
 
Any if you actually build a ramp? How'd you do it? How's it secured? Tidal changes and salt water favor ramps, but Richard's in a lake. Anyone built a ramp in a lake? A small ramp to pull the keels on should be simple enough. Add some sunken anchors for the bow cleats. Nose it, unload, spin it, tie it. Arguing over a marine ramp in SE Alaska isn't helping Richard. My last spot at hood had a wood ramp dug into the bank. Handy, for sure. I had a dock on one side and shore on the other so tying wings was easy.
 
The issue on my reply was about creating loose rivets when using a ramp, just not what happens when using a ramp. All slow speed, unlike pounding through waves which works rivets.
For a lake, depending on the depth and distance from shore would all be factors. If possible, use a larger log like the floating ramps in SE Alaska for the upper end of the ramp support, and secure it with anchors as needed. Pretty simple deal, but one has to know the details to help out. Should not be rocket science.
John
 
My ramp worked because I had smooth water. Imagine a lake with ski boats and jet akis going by all the time. Working the rivets is a concern. If half the float is bobbing and the other half isn't. If wakes are an issue I'd stay a couple of feet offshore and let it bob, or get a lift and remove it from the water.

Lake ramps these days are usually those floating plastic dock blocks. Some can change between sink and float with ballast pumps.
 
I bought a cheap steel boat lift years ago...widened it and it keeps the plane safe and sound out of the water. I watched it ride out some pretty bad storms. I have a Tcraft on straight Baumanns. I think I paid $200 for the lift 14years ago.
 
What we do not know is the depth of the lake area for the float and if the lake level changes. How far from shore required, etc.
And if one is to have the airplane forward on ramp or tailed in. All have to be considered to know what might be best.
To me, if lots of waves and rougher water, I would tail in on ramp a bit. No big deal if the front of the floats are partially in water allowing so bobbing, but can be minimized by angle of ramp to tail in further? Or if really rough water conditions power on forward to get it more out of the water and leave it sit that way until time to turn it around to depart. Again, not all rocket science, just need to know actual conditions where it will go to make good decisions on construction.
If not rough water a bit of bobbing around will not work rivets.
John
 
We Moore our seaplanes, we use a homemade harness to hook up the the prop as primary anchor backed up to the cleats. Works well, plane swings with the winds and big wind pulls the nose down and kills lift. Maybe a Ken can post a pic..
 
Lifts can work well, but if one has the posts or lifting mechanisms sticking up that could snag any part of the airplane that would not be great if dealing with stronger winds?
Just scares me a bit unless docking on the lift in calm situations.
Strong winds can really make things difficult when trying to dock in tight areas.
John
 
Stewart,

actually, building a ramp on a lake can be simpler than in salt water. Salt water always has tides to deal with, which can be a PITA, depending on tide variations. In Kodiak, that’s 26 feet seasonally. Which means your ramp has to be attached to a float that moves up and down.

On the other hand, if a lake level doesn’t fluctuate much, situating a ramp can be very simple. In Kodiak, I parked in fresh water on Lilly Lake. We had a small “slip” excavated back into the shore a bit.....actually, just cut the bottom back to a notch. We built a short narrow dock on either side of the cut. Mounted a wood ramp made from 2 x 6 lumber, hinged to the small dock sections on either side. Because the ramp floats, I attached a piece of pipe filled with concrete to the outboard end of the ramp, secured to the underside of the ramp. That caused the ramp to sink a foot or so, but still remain buoyant.

With this setup, I could bring the plane in nose first, then push it back and heel it up on the ramp to tie down. I nearly always prefer to have aseaplane heeled in on shore, so I can get to the control surfaces in a blow. I don’t like the tail surfaces exposed out over the water, even if they’re secured.

When ready to depart, load the airplane on the ramp, saddle up, start the engine and when warmed up, power off the ramp. No dancing with docks, releasing lines, or needing dock hands.

At remote sites, I’ve used a similar setup, but just secured the ramp on shore, with no dock sections. The dock sections make loading and unloading a lot easier, but more $$ and more stuff to haul to remote site. As others have noted, a ramp in the water gets slicker than snot over time, so those short dock sections help. But a simple ramp is easy and cheap.

One of the beauties of a ramp is parking in a wind. Docking can be sporty in wind, but with a ramp, you just bring the plane in under power, with the elevator full nose up, kill the power, and the bow wave will carry the floats up onto the ramp, where they’ll stick. If the wind is high, just keep the plane stuck nose in and tie it down.

MTV
 
This is what I have done in a remote area, seems to work but a cross wind can be tricky. Always come in under power.
imagejpeg
 

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I had a ramp made from used tires for 35+ years. Enough tires to be wider than the floats and long enough to allow for water level changes. Drive on, turn around, park, untie, push out some and drive off. Easy on floats and flex when windy. Filled inside of tires with some gravel to hold them in place when gone, but can be tied together with rope. Used tires were free then. Not sure about now.
 
stewartb said:
Any if you actually build a ramp? How'd you do it? How's it secured? Tidal changes and salt water favor ramps, but Richard's in a lake. Anyone built a ramp in a lake? QUOTE]

I didn't build it but will try to describe the one that I used.
Situated on the North West end of Campbell Lake in South Anchorage so it caught more then its fair share of strong SE winds.
This ramp was constructed of 4 ea 4 X 6 x 16 ft timbers extending into the lake and fastened to about a 6 inch pipe filled with concrete. The deck was 14 ft wide of 2 x 6 pressure treated boards, fastened down with big galvanized nails/spikes. (space the timbers out of line of you keels, to avoid the nail heads)
The spacing of the timbers left flex in the decking and I think that this absorbed shocking to the floats.
I think that it was tied down in the lake with some screw in anchors. The length of the ramp could compensate for water level but actually never varied much at this spot.

Don't know the exact angle but visualize the angle of the aft end of Edo 2000 floats in level flight plus a little more.
The lake end of the ramp was grounded as this shoreline tapered rather gradual with few rocks to deal with.

Pulled back up tail first the cub sat slightly nose down with the heels of the floats and the tails both touching.
This angle worked perfect as it killed the lift and the plane sat great through some hellacious winds plus Jet ski and boat wakes. I only anchored the floats so that it couldn't move sideways or swing. Did this for 10 years without problems.

MTV is right that in almost any direction of wind you can power up onto it and it would stick well; as it just rides the wave up. Later just kick a bit of water under the floats and it would slide off easily.

I would shy from having a dock too close to the ramp as when you spin the plane around especially in wind; things can happen very fast. You don't want to get any "dock rash".
Click to expand...
 
mvivion said:
One of the beauties of a ramp is parking in a wind. Docking can be sporty in wind, but with a ramp, you just bring the plane in under power, with the elevator full nose up, kill the power, and the bow wave will carry the floats up onto the ramp, where they’ll stick. If the wind is high, just keep the plane stuck nose in and tie it down.

MTV
Click to expand...

Sounds easy in theory, but with a cross wind you will be needing speed through the water and power to keep you pointed the correct direction, and possibly do the one float on, power and rudder turn to get the other float on, then power to get her up the ramp.

Nope, no stresses on the keels twisting.

Yes, pump them every day. But I would rather pump twice per compartment than ten times... does not take much to get leaks started, and when fixing it all yourself you tend to limit the stresses as much as possible.

Every idea discussed will work just fine, one must decide what is best for their own conditions.

Ever watched guys trying to slide back off a ramp in gusty conditions with planes on both sides? That is fun.:wink:

Most operators in Southeast dock their planes, even over night. Ramping is usually for longer term storage, (private planes often because they dont fly as much), or to get worked on.
 
For many years I had my pa 18 on a track with a remote pad worked great it got my plane away from the wave action and kept it on land where I could work on it
 
Decades ago I built a set of spoilers that strapped to the top of the wings on a customers Supercub.
These were essentially a few 6" x 4' pieces of Masonite screwed to a 2x4. Carpeted so as to reduce harm. First had clothesline and later nylon straps that wrapped the wing fore-aft.

These were placed up on the wing, two per side and strapped in place. With the thin Masonite standing straight up these killed allot of lift.
This Cub sat on water during the summer and outside on skis in the winter, it was well behaved and always there in the morning.
Somewhere I have pictures on slide film but doubt I could dig them out very easily.
 
For about 17 years I kept a floatplane tethered to a double pulley line anchored 75' offshore at a remote lake. The lake shore was rocky which prohibited beaching. I had a sizable marine boat anchor and 25' of heavy logging chain at one end. Between was a 1/2" poly rope loop between a pulley attached to the chain with a swivel connector, and another pulley tied to the shore. On one line I put a big swivel and steel ring, tied two lengths of 1/2" nylon safety rope and two big rubber bungies for shock absorption to that. The metal ring was over both lines at the rope/bungie connection so they wouldn't separate from each other under load.

I tied the bows of the plane to loops in the safety rope and after unloading pulled the plane away from shore by working the loop through the pulleys. It held through 40 mph wind gusts and the plane (Citabria and PA-18A) just bobbed in the waves and worked the bungie cords. It could spin circles as the wind shifted due to the swivel at the middle ring.

To go I'd pull it back to near shore, climb on and unhook the non-door side rope, pull out into the lake by working the loop, unhook the last safety rope on the door side and crank up.

Gary
 
What Gary described is called a “running line”, and is commonly used by folks who live and work in tidal waters of Alaska.

I carried a running line rig with me in Kodiak at times to secure a floatplane in big tides. There’s a video on you tube which shows a three point running line in use, but for one boat or plane, a two point running line works. Keys to make a running line work are a strong anchor, of some sort.....a plane creates a lot of drag in a wind, some good pulleys, good strong line, a good anchor on shore, and to make life easier when tying off, a good strong ring on the line to tie off to.

As noted by an earlier poster, a harness rig looped over the prop is the best point to secure the line to the plane. And, as Gary pointed out, for a semi permanent rig, attach a length of heavy chain at the anchor. As the plane works against the line, it will lift that chain off the bottom as it strains against the anchor, and that lifting will cushion the stress between plane and anchor.

Running lines require some work to construct, and in cold country, the line needs to be pulled out when freezing weather arrives. I’ve seen running lines where the anchor was left in over winter, with a buoy attached to help find it in spring, which saves having to haul in that big anchor in the fall.

MTV
 
I'd be leery of using the cleats on most floats for securing a float plane in high winds. I know of an incident over at Campbell Lake a few years ago where a wind storm came up and picked up a Helio Courier that was tied down (out of the water I think) and flipped it over in the lake. It pulled the cleats out of the floats. I prefer to tie to the float struts where they attach to the floats and the normal tie-down point where the wing strut meets the wing. These reinforces areas are much stronger than the cleats on the floats.
 
This is the one I used to run on a lake. It was made out of a few dock sections and worked great ramping and pushing the Cub back down when needed. (I used plastic decking as it didn't get as slippery walking on it.) I thought I remember Dave Jaranson had a wood one at his Canadian side place. Maybe SJ still has pics?

73938638e8e0619cd8244b28.jpg


7ceb602c979e2dbcee800f1b.jpg


Here's an old one on Beluga lake in Homer (near the MacDonalds):

Homer.jpg


I use a hydraulic lift nowadays:

9b9431f2518170e696dd91ff.jpg
 
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