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Thread: Supercub and Mogas

  1. #1
    giangab's Avatar
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    Supercub and Mogas

    Hello,
    My PA18/95 project is getting close to paint job

    This supercub is powered by a C90 which, I understand has an STC combined with the plame type, for Mogas.

    How to get the STC?

    The fuel system of the PA18/95 works essentially on gravity (no fuel pump). Eould it be worth to install an electical booster pump (say a Facet one) at the lowest point near the gascolator to prevent vapor-lock?

    Thanks for your comments.


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  2. #2
    180Marty's Avatar
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    I wouldn't.

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    PerryB's Avatar
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    You're never going to have a vapor lock issue with a carbureted Continental on a Cub, and a pump is just one more mechanical contrivance to fail.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  5. #5
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Both EAA and Todd Peterson have STCs for mogas in C-90s.

    No pump needed.

    MTV

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    How to get the STC?

    STCs. One STC for the airframe. A separate STC for the engine.
    You can't get there from here. You have to go over yonder and start from there.

  7. #7

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    Yes, there are separate STCs for the airframe and the engine. You buy the STCs from either Peterson or EAA (they are each slightly different) once you have them, you them get your IA to fill out a 337 to “install” the STCs on your airplane and engine. Both STCs require Mogas without ethanol, so depending on where you live you may not be able to find non-ethanol Mogas.


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  8. #8

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    Had good luck running alcohol free regular in my O-320. Might be my imagination, but runs better than on a gas.
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  9. #9
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    Had good luck running alcohol free regular in my O-320. Might be my imagination, but runs better than on a gas.
    Mogas has the octane/burn rate it was designed for. It probably DOES run better. 100 LL burns slow and causes somewhat elevated CHT's and EGT's. For a low compression Lyc. 100 LL I recommend bumping the timing 2-3 degrees.
    Last edited by PerryB; 05-28-2018 at 03:36 PM.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  10. #10
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    One of the big differences between mogas and avgas is the filtration. If you use mogas, fill a tank that has a filter between it (the tank/jug your filling)and your plane (a fine one!). Dont go from the gas pump to a portable, then to the plane. Just my $2 cents. Do we still use pennies?
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers
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  11. #11
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    Mr funnel is a must for using car gas. It filters out the water and solids.


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  12. #12
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    The STC is going to call for 87 octane or higher and NO E10 the alcohol destroys rubber fuel lines and attracts water it is very bad in an airplane. I know a guy that couldn’t find straight gas so he used E10 was flying at night the alcohol ate the diaphragm in the fuel pressure gauge gas started running on his legs he had to find a place to land at night with gas in the cabin not cool


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  13. #13
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    I have found just the opposite. I have burned over 21,000 gallons of mogas in the last 25 years in my airplanes. Almost all of it hauled in cans. I almost never have water in my fuel with mogas. The only times I discover water while sumping is when I stop to buy 100LL once in a while. I used a funnel for awhile but not with the last 20K gallons. YMMV

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  14. #14

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    I've found the same thing. The mogas is cleaner. My mogas goes into a tank where I have a filter/water block downstream of the pump. There's never anything in the filter or the tanks and no lead fouling.
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  15. #15

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    Nearly 30,000 gallons in the cubs and 180, and never a hint of a problem.
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    Me too. If there was trash or water in mogas you would see a lot more cars disabled on the freeway. Do you know why cars no longer have gascolators?

    We use 75% mogas, 25% avgas, giving us roughly the equivalent of 80 octane lead content. We never see trash or water.
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  17. #17
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Vehicals have whats called fuel filters. I guess im the only one whos ever seen plugged fuel filters in autos. Different gas stations have different quality fuel filtration. Either way, its your ass and your $30k engine. Do what you want. Its not that big of a deal to run your mogas through another filter to be safe.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  18. #18
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    I haul gas for a living. Filter it. Like cub special ed said not all stations filter systems are the same and the gas that comes down the pipe lines are not clean


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    You are right. I had not only a clogged filter, but also got a load of water - in 1972.

  20. #20
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Peterson STC http://www.autofuelstc.com

    EAA STC https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-.../auto-fuel-stc

    I like the Peterson if you ever go to a 160 hp O-320 they cover it. The problem is finding high octane ethanol free mogas. I have one local station here in my home town that has ethanol free mogas but no high octane. I have run mogas in my Super Cub almost exclusively in my stock fuel system 150 hp Super Cub for the last 4 years except on cross countries with no issues.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  21. #21
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Funny how here in Iowa non ethanol 87(all gas stations) and 91 octane is plentiful. We also have 10,15,20,30 and 85% ethanol blends. Here at Paullina Avgas is $4 per gallon,E0 91 is $3.50, 87 E0 is $3.10 and E10 87 is $2.80. E85 is $1.90
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  22. #22
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Funny how here in Iowa non ethanol 87(all gas stations) and 91 octane is plentiful. We also have 10,15,20,30 and 85% ethanol blends. Here at Paullina Avgas is $4 per gallon,E0 91 is $3.50, 87 E0 is $3.10 and E10 87 is $2.80. E85 is $1.90
    I don't find it funny. I find it criminal especially since I live in Texas where we produce more oul than any other state.
    Steve Pierce

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  23. #23
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    I deliver fuel to stations in Nebraska, Wyoming, South Dakota and most all stations carry at least one straight gas product . This time of the year 91 is used for mowing and boating and they go through a lot.


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  24. #24

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    Most gas stations around my part of Minnesota and North Dakota have ethanol free 91 and a few have 87. I use it in my boat, four wheelers and lawn mowers have also used in the airplanes in the past with no problems. It's around $1.25 cheaper than 100LL.

  25. #25
    mvivion's Avatar
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    A side note: the Peterson STC for my C-90 requires that I mix 10% avgas with auto gas to provide adequate lead to valve train.

    MTV

  26. #26
    180Marty's Avatar
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    I'm thinking when they did the STC for 88% ethanol (AGE 85) for the big Continentals in 180/182's with hardened valve seats no lead is fine. Little ones don't have seats like that?????

    Here is another interesting tidbit on fuel use from the Iowa Dept of Revenue. For 2017 87.2% of all gas sold had ethanol in it.

    Gasoline Fuel Sales
    During 2017, the reported amount of E10 gasoline sold equaled 1,314.9 million gallons.
    E85 gasoline sold equaled 20.6 million gallons, E20 gasoline sold equaled 1.2 million
    gallons, and E15 gasoline sold equaled 27.6 million gallons, with 94.1 percent sold
    through registered pumps. Combined, the five ethanol blends represented 87.2 percent
    of total reported gasoline fuel sales during the year. Of the 2,053 locations that sold
    gasoline, 1,999 (97.4%) sold one or more ethanol blend.

  27. #27
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Ethanol is largely corn fed. It was hugely subsidized, and perhaps still is. Corn farmers and large crop growers love the ethanol market, it's a cash cow.

    And while I support farmers probably more than the next guy as I've been there, ethanol is a product of the EPA, which is by and large has created (produced?) more cost and problems for the public in the last 20 years than any other group of people that I'm aware of.

    On the flip side, Marvel Mystery oil should have ramped up their marketing on the same scale as ethanol has been introduced. Combat dryness by lubricating. lol... yup, I just went there. There's a thousand slogans MMO could be using right now, with sales through the roof.
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  28. #28
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    I put a cap full of marvel mystery oil in each tank fill up with car gas


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  29. #29
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    Started using MMO after I stuck a valve in a c-85 . I have never had a problem since


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  30. #30
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    I was taught to use 2.5 ounces per 5 gallons, which I did. Even heard from the armchair experts that the engines torn down after running MMO were in excellent condition compared to those that did not.

    My lawnmower just had a stuck ring _and_ stuck float dumping all the fuel into the crankcase. Entire neighboorhood went IFR in smoke in about 2 minutes. Why? Because of Ethanol.

    Drained out the oil/fuel, added fresh oil with a healthy dose of MMO, added another good dose to the fuel tank with some gas, and Voilŕ! the ring freed itself, the carb worked. Freaking cub cadet never ran so good.

    pb
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  31. #31
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I did a little research, it is all driven by EPA National; Air Standards. They take air readings and if the emissions are high in a certain county they adjust the formula. Unfortunately I am in in a county with low emissions (low population and emission producing industry) but the infrastructure in place to deliver ethanol fuels to the big metropolitan areas make it not cost effective to deliver non-ethanol fuel to my area even though it is far cheaper to manufacture non-ethanol fuel. Still makes no sense to me to put something in my airplane to lower the power but I am not on the ethanol dole.
    Steve Pierce

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  32. #32
    cruiser's Avatar
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    MMO, some wintergreen oil for odor, a little red dye for color, mineral spirits at about 20-30% and some variation of naphtha for the rest. Believers gotta believe. LOL
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Funny how here in Iowa non ethanol 87(all gas stations) and 91 octane is plentiful. We also have 10,15,20,30 and 85% ethanol blends. Here at Paullina Avgas is $4 per gallon,E0 91 is $3.50, 87 E0 is $3.10 and E10 87 is $2.80. E85 is $1.90
    We have a lot of cardlock pumps at gas stations aroun d here.
    The average pump has both regular & premium, some also have a miod-grade, some also have diesel (through a separate hose).
    How many pumps at the stations in your area, with all those E-choices plus (I assume) regular premium and diesel?
    Or is all the E-gas through one pump, and you just dial in the amount of ethanol desired?
    (as in do you want fries with that?)
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  34. #34
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Amen on the mmo. I use it in fuel in everything i own!
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  35. #35
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiser View Post
    MMO, some wintergreen oil for odor, a little red dye for color, mineral spirits at about 20-30% and some variation of naphtha for the rest. Believers gotta believe. LOL
    25+ years ago at Oshkosh I sat in on a radial engine clinic, there was more then one speaker. One old weathered gray haired who was the last to speak was the most interesting one. He had run the engine repair/rebuild shop for TWA when they were flying the Constellation. He was taking answers from the audience when someone asked about MMO, wanted to know his opinion on using it. I don't remember word for word what he said but it was something like this. " No one can tell you what it does, and it's not FAA approved, but I can tell you that TWA bought 55gals drums of it by the truckload."

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  36. #36
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    25+ years ago at Oshkosh I sat in on a radial engine clinic, there was more then one speaker. One old weathered gray haired who was the last to speak was the most interesting one. He had run the engine repair/rebuild shop for TWA when they were flying the Constellation. He was taking answers from the audience when someone asked about MMO, wanted to know his opinion on using it. I don't remember word for word what he said but it was something like this. " No one can tell you what it does, and it's not FAA approved, but I can tell you that TWA bought 55gals drums of it by the truckload."

    Glenn
    So did the military.
    Steve Pierce

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  37. #37
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiser View Post
    MMO, some wintergreen oil for odor, a little red dye for color, mineral spirits at about 20-30% and some variation of naphtha for the rest. Believers gotta believe. LOL
    And bottled up nicely in a red container so I don't have to mix my own concoction! hahahahaha...

  38. #38

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    It is a mystery, but I use it regularly. I had an IA explain that it wasn't FAA approved and shouldn't be used in aircraft engines.
    I told him to enjoy fixing his stuck valve.
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  39. #39
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I did a little research, it is all driven by EPA National; Air Standards. They take air readings and if the emissions are high in a certain county they adjust the formula.
    Little sidebar here.

    My 08 Powerstroke that, in simple terms, came oem with exhaust "recirculation" plumbing that simply diverts exhaust back into the engine after going through some cooling chambers. This apparently solved the exhaust particle count and passed the EPA parameters.

    A few years ago I had one of the coolers start leaking, which was evident by the smoke trail out the exhaust of vaporized coolant.

    My options were to replace the cooler for $1000, or remove all the re-circ parts, DPF delete, and install a bypass kit with a computer chip for $1000. Hmmm... tough choice for maybe 2 seconds.

    120.5 lbs of EPA mandated crap removed from my F350.
    - Hey look, I get good mileage now. (Well, 4-5 mpg better)
    - Hey look, my engine doesn't have to smoke out the other drivers during the Exhaust Cleaning Cycle anymore.
    - Hey look, my engine might actually last now that it's not trying to burn the exhaust twice.

    Biggest difference was power. Even in stock setting on the computer it was as if I had just put a CS prop on it.
    Just wish I could have cleaned all the black gooey carbon mess out from inside the engine.

    IMG_0487.JPG
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  40. #40

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    Old government pilots that talk about MMO in big radials are talking about using it in the oil to lubricate too tight valve guides in freshly overhauled engines. At least that's what I've heard from a couple of old time government pilots.

    Are you guys using in your fuel? Seafoam is mineral spirits (Varsol) and isopropyl. That makes a lot more sense to me than MMO (Varsol and light base oil). But Seafoam has gotten expensive so I just use a jug of (completely FAA legal) isopropyl occasionally to eliminate water. I never recognized any difference with or without MMO as a top oil. If I did I'd mix some Stoddard Solvent and light mineral oil like was suggested to me years ago by Mr. Camguard. But I don't use car gas unless I have to.

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