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Thread: Whirlwind Prop Owners

  1. #1
    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Whirlwind Prop Owners

    I fitted a whirlwind prop and am happy with the performance. But I have had problems with the balance ever since I installed it. GA200 with a carbon fibre spinner. Ballanced with the spinner mounted of course.

    It was difficult to balance in the beginning but we finally got it near on perfect. I can't remember the number. But in flight I thought it was a bit average. Then I noticed that sometimes it was ok and other times it was poor. It continued to get worse over a month. I then noticed that in the morning at first flight, it usually was not to bad. But if I parked the plane and then returned it would be shocking. To the degree that I abandoned a return trip one day to find a prop ballacer. It was not safe.

    Before we got a chance to rebalance it we noticed that the rear spinner bulkhead has quite a bit of flexion. It could be imagined that the spinner could get a wobble up in flight. I removed the spinner and bulkhead and it has been perfect ever since. No nead for a rebalance. Smooth as silk.

    I rang WW and received a less than enthusiastic response to the issue. So before I go any further I wondered if any one else has experienced this. WW says that I am the only one.

    Ideas- Heat radiated from the engine when parked affected the back plate? Heat from being parked outside in the sun affecting the backplate. Back plate not cured correctly? Back plate not pure carbon fibre? Need for front bulkhead like on the RV versions.

    Col Goldy

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    broken/cracked/weak valve spring or sticking valve....... especially on an intake valve... will come and go

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    About to install a WW GA myself but have heard about vibrations from several. More than 3 or 4 let's just say that. Part of me thinks it may be easier to just switch my cruise Catto for a stump pulling Catto. Will see. Need to go test it out for myself. Long story short your not the only one dealing with the vibration issue and I guarantee it's not the first they have heard about it.

    akt

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    Very interesting- just installed a prop and spinner as described in the first post, and I did notice that the spinner had a lot of flex in the backplate and thought to myself “it sure could use a fwd bulkhead...”. Will be on the lookout for vibration- not sure if it’s flown yet or not...
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Any chance that the spinner backing plate is not locking on the extended drive lugs?

    N1PA

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    cgoldy's Avatar
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    I have done 11 hours since taking off the spinner and it is now perfect. Spinner was installed as per the instructions. It was just not stiff enough. I was just interested to find out if they were correct in telling me that I was the only one having the issue. Mate of mine who should know looked at it and thinks it not entirely carbon fibre. The backing plate not the spinner.
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    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    I have done 11 hours since taking off the spinner and it is now perfect. Spinner was installed as per the instructions. It was just not stiff enough. I was just interested to find out if they were correct in telling me that I was the only one having the issue. Mate of mine who should know looked at it and thinks it not entirely carbon fibre. The backing plate not the spinner.
    Can't speak to the issue with the spinner , But, I can tell you that Balancemasters makes a great product that dynamically balances thru the rpm range ,from idle to tached out!
    Have two , one on my acro mount that regularly sees 3300 rpm on a pumped 0360 as well as on my C-90 .
    no relation to the company , but have several friends that are just as pleased as I am with the results.
    Most products advertising to accomplish what they can are in my experience...snake oil promising...this is one of the few that delivers what's advertised.
    You can also take it from plane to plane , if the engines have the same flange
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    gdafoe's Avatar
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    My spinner backplate has a lot of flex as well. I have talked to them a couple times and they seem to think it is not an issue. I think it needs a forward stabilizer as well just like their other spinners use. I am still flying it but may have to remove it. The propeller performance is spectacular.
    Gerald
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    Spinner was installed as per the instructions. It was just not stiff enough. The backing plate not the spinner.
    Quote Originally Posted by gdafoe View Post
    My spinner backplate has a lot of flex as well.
    Have you considered adding some layers of materiel to stiffen the backing plate? Or some other method of stiffening the backing plate? Adding a support ahead of the prop to stabilize the spinner?
    N1PA
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  10. #10
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    I have wondered about making a .050/.060 aluminum backplate doubler but have not tried it.
    Gerald

  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    If you do, bond it to the backing plate for improved stiffness. Without the bonding there could be some small amount of motion between the two parts thus reducing the potential improvement. Your idea has merit and should not effect the balance.
    N1PA

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    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Yes we could do this Pete but I thought that maybe WW could look into it. I must admit, I was surprised when they told me I was the only one with this problem. With the stories from others it will give me confidence when I call them to discuss the options. We did pay good money for what I thought would have been a tested product. And as Gdafoe says, no complaints with the prop.
    Last edited by cgoldy; 05-08-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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  13. #13
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    I did talk with them again and was taken seriously. Part of the problem when I talked to them last time may have been that the prop was just installed. The immediate issue was that the spinner was flexing enough that it was cutting into the blades. On their advise I kept opening up the clearance until it was not hitting anymore. Now today a few months later and warmer here in AZ it is hitting the blades again. So I need to open up that clearance more but where do you stop. If I try to push/pull on the spinner enough to touch the blades it takes a lot of force. I don't know how many pounds I'd guess 30 - 50 lbs. I have always been able to feel some out of balance but it is not "normal" out of balance feeling. It comes and goes or changes as you are running it. So it appears that with the hotter wx the backplate is flexing more, which if it is marginal, to begin with, makes sense.
    Gerald
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    cgoldy's Avatar
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    From my limited knowledge, the RV version has an additional forward bulkhead. Which probably means the front of the prop hub has some sort of mounting holes in it maybe. I wonder why they couldn't supply this hub for the cub owners with a forward bulkhead. I love flying behind a ballanced prop.

    By the way, I weighed the blades individually and they were spot on identical within a gram. And my adjustments are within 0.1 degrees.

  15. #15
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    This is the spinner that they should have sent you.
    N1PA
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    Those of us with the CS Whirl Winds have bulkheads in the spinner that get closely fitted to the dome on the hub. The bulkhead makes the spinner installation very solid. To that end the two-plane RV spinner should support the fixed pitch spinner nicely. Better than a single backing plate, for sure.
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  17. #17
    cgoldy's Avatar
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    I just spoke to Patty and Jim at WW. Jim says to send in the backing plate and he will look at it. He says a forward bulkhead would take some tooling and time. But hinted that it may be possible. It would certainly be the best fix in my opinion. I am happy with their response and I'll have to be patient.
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  18. #18
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    I just spoke to Patty and Jim at WW. Jim says to send in the backing plate and he will look at it. He says a forward bulkhead would take some tooling and time. But hinted that it may be possible. It would certainly be the best fix in my opinion. I am happy with their response and I'll have to be patient.
    Would you need a full bulkhead? Maybe a couple tabs from mount bolts would be enough??

    Post a picture of your prop installed. Not familiar with them.

  19. #19
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    I wanted to report in the spinner/backplate situation. When I talked to Jim last week he got right on it and fast, they made a new backplate the next day that is 50% stiffer, shipped it overnight to me. I put it on right away but didn't get a chance to fly it until yesterday it appears to have solved the problem. It is like 30% thicker. I plan to dynamically balance the prop in a few weeks but it is pretty close as it is now. So Col I think I got the first revised one because they could get it to me quickly, but I expect you'll be getting an updated one pretty soon as well. I expect it will solve your problem.
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  20. #20
    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdafoe View Post
    I wanted to report in the spinner/backplate situation. When I talked to Jim last week he got right on it and fast, they made a new backplate the next day that is 50% stiffer, shipped it overnight to me. I put it on right away but didn't get a chance to fly it until yesterday it appears to have solved the problem. It is like 30% thicker. I plan to dynamically balance the prop in a few weeks but it is pretty close as it is now. So Col I think I got the first revised one because they could get it to me quickly, but I expect you'll be getting an updated one pretty soon as well. I expect it will solve your problem.
    Hi Gdafoe,

    How did the back plate work out? I haven't sent mine back yet, still sitting on the bench.

    Col Goldy

  21. #21
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    It solved the problem it seems. I am going to do a balance on it one of these days soon. The thicker back plate made the difference.
    Gerald

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    Aktahoe's Avatar
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    First flight on my WW ga today. Great temps. Speed was great. It's set now at 11.5 and a full 2700 rpm on 35's I could get 105mph. 2350 gave me 90mph here with the DA at around 9000'. With the options for various settings it seems really good. With the pitch set at 14 you can get 130mph at 2700. Found myself cruising around at 2400/2450 a lot more today with same fuel burn as the Catto at 2350. Trying to make sense of it all as its still new to me. I'm anxious to play at both ends of the spectrum more. The 86/36 Catto is a stump pulling machine. The hard left turning tendency from the Catto is incredible. Will be interesting to see if the WW can do that. That Catto pulls! So, we will be playing with the various pitch settings to see. As for this thead, the prop was very smooth. I have the stiff backing plate.

    AKT
    www.bigtirepilot.com
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  23. #23
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    Hey Folks,
    I have the GA200L 82" installed on my Cub now. I had the Catto 84/44 on my Cub for several years now and always loved it. I loved the idea of adjustable and the WW seemed to get good reviews. Also my Catto needs to be refurbished so decided to give WW a try. I ordered the prop and 12" "Cub" spinner.

    I had to swap out all my drive lugs (extra long for Catto) for lugs that work for the WW. Ordered all from Sabre Mfg.

    My original Pawnee 84 and the Catto 84 were always very smooth. However when I installed the WW, I had vibration that was noticeable. I checked the pitches on both blades to make sure within 1/10. Made sure prop indexed right. I noticed my spinner making paint marks on the prop. If you push on it it will move around because doesn't have a front plate. I flew without the spinner thinking that is the issue and still had vibration. I heard good things about Dyna vibe and had the opportunity to borrow one. Last weekend I Dyna-vibed my prop without the spinner so I could see if adding it back in caused a problem. The Dyna-vibe showed I needed some weight and added accordingly. After a few iterations I got weight pretty close. Amazing piece of equipment. Then flew the Cub and seemed substantially better. No more stick shaker. Then came back and put the spinner back on and flew. Same result, very smooth. Upon return I did not see any fresh paint marks from the spinner. So in my case it seems I needed the dynamic balance first, then the spinner is happy.

    I will make some more flights soon to verify the spinner is happy and not wobbling. I also question this spinner not having a front plate. Seems it would be that much better if it did.

    Overall I love the ability to adjust the prop! I have it set to 12.5*. Getting 2500 static. ~106 mph cruise @ 2500. Climb about the same as Catto. I too am going to experiment with more settings and will report back.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Bugs66; 03-25-2019 at 10:14 AM.

  24. #24
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Bugs, I seem to recall a while ago of someone having spinner wobbling problems. Can't remember which make of prop and spinner though, the fix was to add some thickness to the spinner backing plate.

    How are your floats progressing?
    N1PA

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    Read back 5 posts about the back plate issue.

    Bugs, here's another balancing option. http://store.balancemasters.com/osCo...0fb929bf98ea4f

  26. #26
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Bugs, I seem to recall a while ago of someone having spinner wobbling problems. Can't remember which make of prop and spinner though, the fix was to add some thickness to the spinner backing plate.

    How are your floats progressing?
    Yes, I saw some considering a stiffener above. I'll see if I have any issue going forward and might fab one. First I will call WW though.

    Floats? Ugh... no time to work on them unfortunately. It's like building two boats. I really want to get back to them though.

  27. #27
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Read back 5 posts about the back plate issue.

    Bugs, here's another balancing option. http://store.balancemasters.com/osCo...0fb929bf98ea4f
    Whoa, that is very interesting! Anyone else try one?

  28. #28
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    Whoa, that is very interesting! Anyone else try one?
    Got 3, One on my Aerobatic Mount, one on my cross-country Mount And one of my bush plane .wouldn’t fly a plane without them.
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  29. #29
    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Thought I had better report that WW sent me a new backing plate some time ago. I have been offline for a while and haven’t fitted it yet but I am confident that they have addressed the issue.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrite View Post
    Got 3, One on my Aerobatic Mount, one on my cross-country Mount And one of my bush plane .wouldn’t fly a plane without them.
    I put a similar product on all three axles of my crane truck last year http://www.centramatic.com/balancers.rhtml and am very happy with the results. I did a lot of research first, and other then the initial cost, heard nothing bad. Exact same concept on the prop, makes perfect sense to me, the weight would be the only drawback, screw the cost it's only airplane money.

    5 minutes later.....bought one, shipping today! And I had a good conversation with the company rep, they are looking for feedback from a Rotax install and I told him I would give him an earful. I will also blab the results around the Rotax crowd.

    Friday I had $600.00 worth of front end alignment work done on my crane truck, then after that I had my front tires ($900.00 each) broke down and swapped side to side, just like I do every year with my Airstreaks, NOT just rotated. The tire shop noticed the Centramatic balancers and didn't bother to balance them in the traditional fashion, they said I was good to go as the balancers do a better job then they can!
    Last edited by courierguy; 03-25-2019 at 03:20 PM.
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  31. #31
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    the weight would be the only drawback, screw the cost it's only airplane money.
    Tom, Weight has to be close to a backing plate weight. Also can be taken from plane to plane or prop to prop. Dynamically balances through out the rpm’s stead of just what the motor will static. The company offers a money back guarantee.
    One of the few products I found out there that ain’t snake oil sales!

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    A no brainer for me, as I explained to the factory rep I was already a believer in the concept, I had to interrupt him as he explained the benefits, with "how soon can you ship me one?" Good customer service, he seemed like a true believer not just a sales guy, and mentioned cert models coming out for the non exp. types.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    I put a similar product on all three axles of my crane truck last year http://www.centramatic.com/balancers.rhtml and am very happy with the results. I did a lot of research first, and other then the initial cost, heard nothing bad. Exact same concept on the prop, makes perfect sense to me, the weight would be the only drawback, screw the cost it's only airplane money.

    5 minutes later.....bought one, shipping today! And I had a good conversation with the company rep, they are looking for feedback from a Rotax install and I told him I would give him an earful. I will also blab the results around the Rotax crowd.

    Friday I had $600.00 worth of front end alignment work done on my crane truck, then after that I had my front tires ($900.00 each) broke down and swapped side to side, just like I do every year with my Airstreaks, NOT just rotated. The tire shop noticed the Centramatic balancers and didn't bother to balance them in the traditional fashion, they said I was good to go as the balancers do a better job then they can!
    Some guys around here run a golf ball in each tire

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Some guys around here run a golf ball in each tire

    Glenn
    Are you pulling our legs Glenn or does this really work?
    N1PA

  35. #35
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    My neighbor has been using golf balls for years. But looks like all kinds of simple ways

    https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ncing+&sp=mAEB


    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  36. #36
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Thanks glenn, This is a good explanation and demonstration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg
    N1PA
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  37. #37
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Wow. Thanks from me too, Glenn. I'm amazed at the things I learn here.
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  38. #38
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    I used dynabeads on my 85 4Runner once. Had a set of brand new tires with a crappy balance job put on a Saturday. I left for a road trip the next day so I gave them a shot after a painful Sunday of avoiding highway speeds.

    Made the situation worse, ended up having to arrange dropping the truck off at a local place to have them removed and the tires rebalanced.

    They said they haven’t seen them work in most cases, but that may be a biased viewpoint: why would anyone take a vehicle with dynabeads that are working to a tire shop?

    This was on 31 10.5 R15 BFG tires. Just my one experience.

    I’ve got a set of GY 26” blimp tires and one needs balancing, how do most folks do it?

  39. #39

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    Use glue in patch weights, Look up Patchrubber company, I can not post the link.
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  40. #40
    Chicken Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Use glue in patch weights, Look up Patchrubber company, I can not post the link.
    http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/14601.html


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
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