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O-320 HP increase options and prop questions

Skalywag said:
According to LyCon's report, the 0-320-B2B they built for the cub, with everything they could throw at a certified engine, dyno'd at 187HP. Flyin at work, but will see if I cant dig up the report for ya when back home if you want.


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Short dyno video posted earlier was at Lycon. O320 A2B 160hp conv with all their whistles and bells thrown at it.
Impressive dyno results but I'd take it with a grain of salt.
Once installed and mated to certified exhaust and air induction system I'd seriously doubt you're putting out much more than 170hp.
It would be interesting to do a back to back dyno run with a bone stock 150 O320 to see what gains are accomplished following the Lycon treatment.

interesting also, Lycon provided a pretty elaborate printout documenting all the engine parameters during dyno - egt, cht each cyl. fuel burn etc.
None of those data bore any resemblence to real world numbers once engine was installed. They're running open induction, short pipes and 5psi fuel pressure on the dyno, would that account for the discrepancy? Probably.

No complaints though, smoothe, reliable, pulls hard. Just took awhile to figure out how to manage all the heat it was making.
 
Cylinder heat can be controlled to some extent via pulling back some ignition timing at the expense of max power.

Gary
 
Modern engine design has passed most older aircraft and engines. Electric fuel metering fed by atmospheric and engine data sensors, wide band exhaust O2 sensors, pre-detonation knock or cylinder post-combustion ionizing sensing, and so on. For us not going to happen except for perhaps adjustable timing (manual or auto) optimized for various engine loads as suggested, and exhaust wide band O2 sensing now readily available for motor products.

Adapting a 4-channel wide band O2 sensor to a 4-cylinder engine will mimic to a degree the output from installed EGT probes, but allow the pilot to refine the EGT product and determine if the air/fuel is common or divergent between cylinders. Also if the fuel controller...carb or injection...provides the desired air/fuel ratio for max economy (14.7:1) or power (~13:1) at various throttle/prop load settings at the current density altitude.

The timing knob and somewhat similar manual turbo waste gate control makes me wonder how implement and then successfully monitor the results. Not part of this thread but there may be fixed timing options as I noted to help control critical engine parameters like excessive heat. For example retard below factory setting would be the heat reducing option.

Low airspeed and high power in cruise are often mutually exclusive if heat control is critical.

Gary
 
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BC12D-4-85 said:
Modern engine design has passed most older aircraft and engines. Electric fuel metering fed by atmospheric and engine data sensors, wide band exhaust O2 sensors, pre-detonation knock or cylinder post-combustion ionizing sensing, and so on. For us not going to happen except for perhaps adjustable timing (manual or auto) optimized for various engine loads as suggested, and exhaust wide band O2 sensing now readily available for motor products.

Adapting a 4-channel wide band O2 sensor to a 4-cylinder engine will mimic to a degree the output from installed EGT probes, but allow the pilot to refine the EGT product and determine if the air/fuel is common or divergent between cylinders. Also if the fuel controller...carb or injection...provides the desired air/fuel ratio for max economy (14.7:1) or power (~13:1) at various throttle/prop load settings at the current density altitude.

The timing knob and somewhat similar manual turbo waste gate control makes me wonder how implement and then successfully monitor the results. Not part of this thread but there may be fixed timing options as I noted to help control critical engine parameters like excessive heat. For example retard below factory setting would be the heat reducing option.

Low airspeed and high power in cruise are often mutually exclusive if heat control is critical.

Gary
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Well said. Hard to believe we are still running aircraft engines with 1930's technology, but there it is . I do have dual P-mags going on my engine rebuild, at least the timing will advance and retard based on
manifold pressure . Liquid cooling, electronic ignition , direct fuel injection should have been part of this process by now, a couple more sensors we could be running auto fuel efficiently, a small turbo to normalize
atmospheric for altitude.

Most people don't know that the Subaru engine was developed as a liquid cooled horizontally opposed engine to compete with the air cooled engines . The early engines even had a standard fitting to supply oil for a
variable pitch propeller . The post war glut of air cooled engines put an end to that effort so the company then designed a car to go around the engine . Probably didn't help the company designing the engine was in
Japan, at the time, that probably did not go over very well .
 
O2 sensors are one of the biggest falacies in the automotive industry today, everyones check engine lights should tell them that, people are spending millions trying to get that little yellow light to go out. Due to no reliability in those sensors. these sensored up motors are nothing but trouble. Have to add, just get a little moisture or mud in a connection and it throws them way out of wack. on a side note i have a Subaru outback with the boxer motor, thats what they call it, and i love it.
 
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The sensors are subject to contamination from combustion by-products and will eventually wear outer go out of calibration, but a common source of output voltage problems in a low time installation can be solved with proper sealing of the electrical connection to the engine control unit. I don't support that they are inherently unreliable...most of the unreliability is due to the high mileage auto owners that fail to have them examined or replaced at recommended intervals. Emission components like O2 sensors fall within Federal emission compliance and manufacturer warranty requirements which are linked to time and mileage.

They are primarily there to help the engine controller adjust the current points on the fuel and ignition maps and offer the catalytic convertor units digestible exhaust and prevent overtemp or emissions.

For experimental aircraft the benefit would be the monitoring of exhaust to optimize intake air and fuel, and with some experimenting, ignition timing. With EGT all we have are engine manufacturer's recommended temps below a variable peak at full throttle WFO for cooling and detonation margins, and then some general guidelines for ops rich and lean of that peak in cruise. Both work but maybe more info would be better for some who want to adjust fuel and ignition for optimum power or economy.

Gary
 
As you can tell im just not a electrical or sensor person at all, so im just going to stick with my mags. we all look at things a little different i guess. dodge went to 1 size wire smaller on there trucks to cheapskate and it threw all there sensors out of wack adding more resistance in the harnesses.
 
These new electronic mags have promise for power and efficiency. Example only: http://www.electroair.net/index.html there are several products. What I was getting at with timing was the option to adjust it to control heat under certain conditions in Cubs and similar aircraft when added power is available.

There's only so much cooling air to be optimized given the propeller design, cowling, and airspeed. If power or fuel efficiency is less important than engine heat in certain conditions then it may be an option versus an overly rich mixture.

I think for cooling the concept of an exhaust augmenter or cowling tunnel would be worth the experiment. CubCrafters has done something similar. Note their outlet to the lower cowl: http://cubcrafters.com

For experimenting wide band O2 sensors are available (example: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com) and all they take is electrical and a welded bung in the exhaust..either for each header pipe or a collective location. Then rejet the carb or change the FI pulse width or flow to optimize performance.

Gary
 
BC12D-4-85 said:
These new electronic mags have promise for power and efficiency. Example only: http://www.electroair.net/index.html there are several products. What I was getting at with timing was the option to adjust it to control heat under certain conditions in Cubs and similar aircraft when added power is available.

There's only so much cooling air to be optimized given the propeller design, cowling, and airspeed. If power or fuel efficiency is less important than engine heat in certain conditions then it may be an option versus an overly rich mixture.

I think for cooling the concept of an exhaust augmenter or cowling tunnel would be worth the experiment. CubCrafters has done something similar. Note their outlet to the lower cowl: http://cubcrafters.com

For experimenting wide band O2 sensors are available (example: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com) and all they take is electrical and a welded bung in the exhaust..either for each header pipe or a collective location. Then rejet the carb or change the FI pulse width or flow to optimize performance.

Gary
Click to expand...

That lower cowl exit ramp ramp that turns up on the end provides an area of high pressure, it helps to pull hot air from the cowl. Many other aircraft do this as well , the bigger the ramp the more the air is sucked out .
But Holy Smokes, those XCubs are amazing. They cruise at 140mph, have amazing interiors too, leather seats, memory foam and other beautiful appointments .
 
How does creating an area of high pressure help to pull the air out?

roxiedog13 said:
That lower cowl exit ramp ramp that turns up on the end provides an area of high pressure, it helps to pull hot air from the cowl. Many other aircraft do this as well , the bigger the ramp the more the air is sucked out .
But Holy Smokes, those XCubs are amazing. They cruise at 140mph, have amazing interiors too, leather seats, memory foam and other beautiful appointments .
Click to expand...
 
Yes Oliver, all the Ly-con engines I've been involved with have these things in common. Smooth, reliable, strong pullers. The bonus's is the bragging rights of the dyno test. Possibly not real world numbers but bragging rights non the less. I have no complaints and I'd buy another one if I needed it.
 
Kustatan said:
Yes Oliver, all the Ly-con engines I've been involved with have these things in common. Smooth, reliable, strong pullers. The bonus's is the bragging rights of the dyno test. Possibly not real world numbers but bragging rights non the less. I have no complaints and I'd buy another one if I needed it.
Click to expand...

As an update. My rebuilt 0-320 with Lycon ported/polished balanced 9.5:1 pistons , P-mags, Powerflow exhaust swings the Borer 82 X 45 to 2825RPM level and WOT. I'm going to try 82 X 47 pitch with the Borer eventually may even try a
Whirlwind GA200L 82" propeller .

Take-off and climb shows a dramatic increase, cruise is the same as expected. With the P-mags and new Garmin G3X I have a better handle on the engine performance, at 2450 RPM cruise I can lean to 6.2 GPH . Biggest difference is the torque for climb and getting out of the hole , worth every penny for sure. Have no idea what is the HP but suffice it to say, it's well beyond what a 160HP is capable of, that is what i had previously .

If anyone has experience with the GA200L please share, I'm on the fence about this purchase, maybe someone has done this same swap and can share what to expect .

Cheers
 
roxiedog13 said:
As an update. My rebuilt 0-320 with Lycon ported/polished balanced 9.5:1 pistons , P-mags, Powerflow exhaust swings the Borer 82 X 45 to 2825RPM level and WOT. I'm going to try 82 X 47 pitch with the Borer eventually may even try a
Whirlwind GA200L 82" propeller .

Take-off and climb shows a dramatic increase, cruise is the same as expected. With the P-mags and new Garmin G3X I have a better handle on the engine performance, at 2450 RPM cruise I can lean to 6.2 GPH . Biggest difference is the torque for climb and getting out of the hole , worth every penny for sure. Have no idea what is the HP but suffice it to say, it's well beyond what a 160HP is capable of, that is what i had previously .

If anyone has experience with the GA200L please share, I'm on the fence about this purchase, maybe someone has done this same swap and can share what to expect .

Cheers
Click to expand...

did lycon build the engine? Where are the pistons from?
 
RaisedByWolves said:
did lycon build the engine? Where are the pistons from?
Click to expand...

Pistons were provided by Lycon, cylinders came from Lycoming direct, were sent to them for porting, flow match and balance. The engine was not completely overhauled, it's currently 500hours SMOH , just decided I wanted the extra power without a weight penalty so went with this upgrade instead of a O-360 . To answer your question I did the upgrade with my engineer . If I didn't already say so, my 172 is in owner maintenance , I can deviate from what is allowed in the certified world within the rules of owner maintenance , what we have done is legal for type. Could be legal for certified too, I do believe this can be done on certified as well. The P-mag is not allowed for certified, everything else I've done certainly is though.

For reference my friend on the same lake has the same aircraft, his has the O-360 and 2400 floats . My take-off and climb performance is in a different league, I'm literally off the water in half the time and distance. On Sunday we cruised side by side, he has about 10 knots on me for cruise but burns much more fuel, my economy overall is vastly better .

I did the port balance and flow matching, added the 9.5:1 pistons, have a Powerflow exhaust and one P-mag . As I mentioned I see all the benefits in take-off and climb, with the same fixed pitch prop cruise is the same as expected . Fuel burn at 2450 is actually down , I'm burning 6.2 GPH when leaned just ROP. The P-mag certainly helps to achieve better economy . Overall it's a nice improvement and I get all the benefits coming out of the hole on floats and in climb, exactly where I want . Next I'm considering a new prop, the Whirlwind GA200L 82" ground adjustable . From reports it is supposed to increase cruise by nearly 5% while retaining climb performance. 18 lb weight savings, better cooling, less P-factor and when needed I can adjust the pitch for better cruise or climb .
 
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