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Thread: current $$ for PPonk engine, and Continentals SB's on cam gears

  1. #1

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    current $$ for PPonk engine, and Continentals SB's on cam gears

    Looks like engines have gone up considerably since I last checked 18 months ago. See attached quote for a PPonk build.
    The Continental service bulletins culminating in http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/CSB05-8C.pdf seem to have affected valuation, plus there were reportedly other parts increases (per Ly-Con salesperson).


    J

    O-470-50 P-PONK OVERHAUL EXCHANGE - QUOTE 3-12-18[11137].pdf
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 03-13-2018 at 03:59 PM.

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    Wow you got a quote from them! I called twice and they never sent a quote. Thats higher than the prices I've seen from other shops. When do they estimate they can get you an engine? Every shop seems to be pretty busy now.

    I ended up going with a engine from Knopp because he had one almost ready to go.

    I also talked to Lawson Aviation. Would have gone with them but my engine crapped out and I didn't want the down time for OH into PPonk. Good prices and they build a lot of Pponks. Good guys! They're helping me with field approval even though I didn't have them OH my engine.
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    Why not rebuild your motor? You have an R motor, right? You’ll need to swap the crank, send the case out for milling the cylinder decks and add the 7th stud if you want that, buy some cylinders, and the rest is a straight forward overhaul. Your cam gear isn’t affected by the CSB. And the cost should be less than half of that quote.

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    I don't know, Stewart. The 470R conversion is pretty expensive because the PPonk STC for milling the 470 is only authorized at approved shops, so I'd have to send it in to one of them.

    Milling and new crank and 7th stud would be about $9,000.
    STC is 1,550.
    New Superiors are $8,000.
    Then the overhaul cost.

    I anticipate downtime for building that way would be in the order of 2-3 months.

    May as well just buy a first run TSIO520 core, build it up and sell my 470R outright... No?
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 03-14-2018 at 09:35 AM.

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    CubDriver218's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    I don't know, Stewart. The 470R conversion is pretty expensive because the PPonk STC for milling the 470 is only authorized at approved shops, so I'd have to send it in to one of them.

    Milling and new crank and 7th stud would be about $9,000.
    STC is 1,550.
    New Superiors are $8,000.
    Then the overhaul cost.

    I anticipate downtime for building that way would be in the order of 2-3 months.

    May as well just buy a first run TSIO520 core, build it up and sell my 470R outright... No?
    I've been going over the numbers and thinking about the same situation with our 470S at this point I am thinking of doing the same thing and selling our 470 with prop which would mean less downtime, and I think in the end less money. I wrote PPONK 4 days ago inquiring about a quote and they said they weren't giving any because they are swamped at the moment. They told me to call one of their approved shops that can do the STC as maybe they're less busy.
    Fast or slow, always low, freedom of flight soothes the soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CubDriver218 View Post
    I've been going over the numbers and thinking about the same situation with our 470S at this point I am thinking of doing the same thing and selling our 470 with prop which would mean less downtime, and I think in the end less money. I wrote PPONK 4 days ago inquiring about a quote and they said they weren't giving any because they are swamped at the moment. They told me to call one of their approved shops that can do the STC as maybe they're less busy.
    I will be interested in hearing about your numbers when you get quotes back. The quote process with Ly-Con so far has been very responsive and pleasant, but they came back a month later and added $6,500 to the TSIO-520 core cost, putting the engine w/ new cylinders at around $43-44K shipped.

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    windknot54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Why not rebuild your motor? You have an R motor, right? You’ll need to swap the crank, send the case out for milling the cylinder decks and add the 7th stud if you want that, buy some cylinders, and the rest is a straight forward overhaul. Your cam gear isn’t affected by the CSB. And the cost should be less than half of that quote.
    I recently had my 0-470-R converted to 0-470-50 by a Knopp approved engine shop. As Stewart noted, this required a new crankshaft and machining of the case. The basic overhaul was to factory new specs. I went with new Continental cylinders, which the shop inspected to ensure the valves, seats and guides were properly within tolerances - several were not and required rework. The pistons and rods were balanced, The carb was rebuilt, re-jetted and flow tested. A new light weight starter and large oil cooler were installed and the mags and starter adapter overhauled. Total engine shop cost was just under $40k. Turnaround time was 16-weeks, predicated by the backlog at the machine shop. I'm quite happy with the outcome.
    Last edited by windknot54; 03-14-2018 at 10:35 AM.

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Base price from the quote in post #1 is $29,678,
    for OH into a 470-50, using OH'd cylinders.
    The add-ons all seemed to be just that.

    That seems pretty reasonable IMHO.
    I recently got a quote from Western Skyways for overhauling my 470K- $28,222, with a one-year warranty..
    That's using OH'd cylinders --add $2K for new Superior Millenium cyls, or $3.5K for new TCM steel cyl's.
    Alternate quote was $29,065 for a 3-year warranty, and included new cylinder.s
    So the 3 year engine seems to actually be a better deal.

    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Base price from the quote in post #1 is $29,678,
    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    for OH into a 470-50, using OH'd cylinders.
    The add-ons all seemed to be just that.

    That seems pretty reasonable IMHO.
    I recently got a quote from Western Skyways for overhauling my 470K- $28,222, with a one-year warranty..
    That's using OH'd cylinders --add $2K for new Superior Millenium cyls, or $3.5K for new TCM steel cyl's.
    Alternate quote was $29,065 for a 3-year warranty, and included new cylinder.s
    So the 3 year engine seems to actually be a better deal.


    Not quite...

    They're asking 29,678 for the overhaul parts & labor, then adding the $13,000 cost of a TSIO520 engine core, then [potentially] refunding $6,500 for a returned O470R core.
    I think Ly-Con has a solid operation and puts out well-regarded engines. No judgement from me except to say that the pricing seems to have gone up quite a bit since 1.5 years ago.


    This directly from Ly-Con after I was confused by their quote:
    $29,678.00 engine overhaul

    $2000.00 exchangecharge

    $13,000.00 TSIO-520-Core

    $1550.00 P-Ponk STC

    equals

    $46,228.00 for engine build

    -$6500.00 core credit ifyou core is in average condition

    Equals

    $39,728.00 net cost for thebasic engine.


    $2965.00 – added if youupgrade to new Superior cylinders

    Equals

    $42,693.00


    $1800.00 – added if youwant cylinder port work

    Equals

    $44,693.00 – total foreverything on that quote."
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 03-14-2018 at 01:36 PM.

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    I love my O-200.........
    Mark
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    Thanks.
    Who did your carb work and flow tested it? I understand from speaking with Ly-Con that there are only four shops in the country capable of properly doing this. Don't know if that's a fact, but that's what was reported to me.
    J

    Quote Originally Posted by windknot54 View Post
    I recently had my 0-470-R converted to 0-470-50 by a Knopp approved engine shop. As Stewart noted, this required a new crankshaft and machining of the case. The basic overhaul was to factory new specs. I went with new Continental cylinders, which the shop inspected to ensure the valves, seats and guides were properly within tolerances - several were not and required rework. The pistons and rods were balanced, The carb was rebuilt, re-jetted and flow tested. A new light weight starter and large oil cooler were installed and the mags and starter adapter overhauled. Total engine shop cost was just under $40k. Turnaround time was 16-weeks, predicated by the backlog at the machine shop. I'm quite happy with the outcome.

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    My quote from Western Skyways also included some adds/ deducts for exchange/returned core engine case.
    When the time comes, I'd like to stay with my existing engine case.
    In other words, overhaul what I have vs exchanging for some unknown core.
    I have a factory-reman K from about 30 years ago,
    Don't know if the TCM paperwork indicates whether they were new or overhauleded at that time.
    If new,in other words first run, I'd just as soon OH the cyl's I have vs exchanging them for OH'd cylinders with who knows how many cycles on them.
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    windknot54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Thanks.
    Who did your carb work and flow tested it? I understand from speaking with Ly-Con that there are only four shops in the country capable of properly doing this. Don't know if that's a fact, but that's what was reported to me.
    J
    The engine shop that did the 0-470-50 build also did the carb overhaul and re-jetting. They have had experience with many P-Ponk conversions, including several for folks that I know. Granted, they went through a trial and error period early on to get it right. However, they now have the correct set-up and I can report that mine has worked well from day one. I believe any competent shop could re-jet the carb, if they were informed of the proper modifications.

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    windknot54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    My quote from Western Skyways also included some adds/ deducts for exchange/returned core engine case.
    When the time comes, I'd like to stay with my existing engine case.
    In other words, overhaul what I have vs exchanging for some unknown core.
    I have a factory-reman K from about 30 years ago,
    Don't know if the TCM paperwork indicates whether they were new or overhauleded at that time.
    If new,in other words first run, I'd just as soon OH the cyl's I have vs exchanging them for OH'd cylinders with who knows how many cycles on them.
    I totally agree that keeping the engine case you know and have maintained provides a significant degree of comfort. That's why I accepted the additional time to modify my 0-470-R case, instead of going with a TSI0-520 core. Who knows what the past life of the core was. Similarly, if going for a straight overhaul, I would recommend keeping your cylinders and getting them overhauled by a competent shop that will stand by their work. It is much easier to deal with an individual shop owner, that cares about his reputation, than a faceless corporation. IMHO
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    So, who was it? Inquiring minds wish to know!
    Quote Originally Posted by windknot54 View Post
    The engine shop that did the 0-470-50 build also did the carb overhaul and re-jetting. They have had experience with many P-Ponk conversions, including several for folks that I know. Granted, they went through a trial and error period early on to get it right. However, they now have the correct set-up and I can report that mine has worked well from day one. I believe any competent shop could re-jet the carb, if they were informed of the proper modifications.

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    ...
    May as well just buy a first run TSIO520 core, build it up ...
    you don't get the longer TBO if you start with a 520 and convert it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    you don't get the longer TBO if you start with a 520 and convert it...
    I remember reading about someone’s woes with that.
    i’m wondering if that is something a specific FSDO ruled on for a particular 135 operator, or has that been determined for the entire fleet now, as regarding commercial ops?

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    I remember reading about someone’s woes with that.
    i’m wondering if that is something a specific FSDO ruled on for a particular 135 operator, or has that been determined for the entire fleet now, as regarding commercial ops?
    it was at an air taxi in Valdez, the FAA thinking was, the time steve put on his original 470 converted engine to get certified higher TBO was not on a converted 520....

    Steve and his wife and his helper were living in a tent out in front of our hanger in Naknek, hauling fish to put time on original engine, then he had to tear it down in front of FAA to demonstrate for the longer TBO...

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    That sounds like an isolated case, and I wonder how long ago it was and if the FAA will have softened its stance by now due to the fact that it's a well established path to the Super Eagle 470-50 by PPonk STC, which is what all of these cores become if following the STC instructions.

    I hear what you're saying, though... The O470-U has a factory TBO of 2,000 (now 2,200 hours if newer than serial number 1006000). Some of the TSIO520's have TBO times of 1,400. That's a big difference for a commercial operator.

    Interestingly, "CMI does not provide a TBO for engines that have been assembled with parts not provided by CMI."
    List of TBO times and CMI's stance on TBO:
    http://www.continentalmotors.aero/up...20SIL98-9C.pdf

    Charlie Melot of Zephyr Aircraft Engines in FL, who really is an excellent engine guy, often said that the lower compression 470 engines were in his long experience more likely to make 2,000 hours than the higher compression 470-U engines. Charlie, by the way, just sold his shop last year to longtime employee L.J. Warren.

    Charlie's and other's testimonies regarding longevity of lower compression engines are compelling enough that I am sticking to 7.5:1 c.r.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    it was at an air taxi in Valdez, the FAA thinking was, the time steve put on his original 470 converted engine to get certified higher TBO was not on a converted 520....

    Steve and his wife and his helper were living in a tent out in front of our hanger in Naknek, hauling fish to put time on original engine, then he had to tear it down in front of FAA to demonstrate for the longer TBO...
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 03-15-2018 at 06:18 AM.

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    Trade your engine to Texas Skyways, get one of their motors and install it.

    Done, great engine, will be great horse power and great people to work with.

    Horse power costs $, one way or the other. To save, it takes time.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    I've certainly thought of it! Part of me wants to retain the ability to burn mogas, however.
    TS compression ratio is 8.5:1 and PPonk is 7.5:1.
    PPonk isn't approved for it, but to get home in a pinch, well...
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Trade your engine to Texas Skyways, get one of their motors and install it.

    Done, great engine, will be great horse power and great people to work with.

    Horse power costs $, one way or the other. To save, it takes time.
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 03-16-2018 at 07:15 AM.
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Mogas use is definitely a factor for me.
    Right now $3.25 vs $5 for 100LL.
    Even still burning 20% 100LL,
    that's still about $17 an hour less at 12gph--
    a 28% savings.
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    TS has an option for a 7.5:1 engine based off a 520, but their STC only covers the 520 (they won’t use a 470 core, so converting an in-hand 470 won’t work) and they use a zero time or factory new engine. The least costly option for the low compression engine (they call it the “O-520-LC/TS) is $50,400, and it’s rated at 265 hp 2700 rpm.

    @
    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Mogas use is definitely a factor for me.
    Right now $3.25 vs $5 for 100LL.
    Even still burning 20% 100LL,
    that's still about $17 an hour less at 12gph--
    a 28% savings.

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    Tom3holer's Avatar
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    Been reading this thread and have a general question.
    With the TCM quality control on jugs somewhat dismal why would anyone choose new TCM jugs over the Millenium which which are $1000 less expensive?
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    Has Continental had problems lately or are you speaking of historical performance, like 15 years ago?

    There is no more TCM. Continental was sold years ago. Then they bought ECI. Then they were going to adopt ECI's cylinder manufacturing for all their cylinders. Then they closed San Antonio and moved everything to Mobile. Are the current Mobile cylinders having issues?
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    Tom3holer's Avatar
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    We had a 182 jump plane at my field and it had a new, I believe, not OH, O-470 installed 3 years ago. The pilot told the mechanic there was a problem with 2 jugs as they were running much hotter than thee rest. Two of the jugs had badly misaligned intake gaskets. To the point one had a completely new hole punched in it by the bolt. The other had about half of the hole enlarged by the bolt being punched through. That is just poor workmanship. Continental waranted one jug but not the other. I thought historically even jugs made several years ago had issues with exhaust valves due to poor QC.

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    I’m coming up on overhaul and will NOT consider new TCM cylinders. I’ve heard too many stories of cyl not making half life and bad luck with warranty. This may change since TCM bought ECI. Hopefully things will get better but I’d rather buy Millinium cyl and send them off to American Cyl to get nickel plated. Think it’s around $200 per cyl.

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    Now in line with Steve Knopp waiting on an engine build for the fall...
    J
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom3holer View Post
    ……. Two of the jugs had badly misaligned intake gaskets. To the point one had a completely new hole punched in it by the bolt. The other had about half of the hole enlarged by the bolt being punched through. That is just poor workmanship. Continental waranted one jug but not the other. ....
    I agree, poor workmanship, but in assembly not cylinder manufacture.
    Whose cylinders are the subject of the 500-hours-in-service replacement AD?
    Was that ECI? Or was it Superior?

    Re nickel, etc...
    I had an O300 overhauled years ago with ECI steel cylinders.
    No bore problems.
    It seems that nickel, chrome, cerminil, etc plating
    might be a good idea for airplanes that sit alot.
    If you fly alot, year around, IMHO plain old steel is fine.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Now in line with Steve Knopp waiting on an engine build for the fall...
    J
    When did you decide to get in line?

    One other question. I have a S so 1500 tbo. Is the tbo the same on a ponk'd engine?

  31. #31
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyingde View Post
    When did you decide to get in line?

    One other question. I have a S so 1500 tbo. Is the tbo the same on a ponk'd engine?
    http://pponk.com/engines/


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    if you aren't a commercial operator TBO doesn't mean much. The better question is will a PPonk run to 2000 hours better than a standard 470? I have my doubts. Heck, Texas Skyways says 2500 hours, right? Marketing is a powerful tool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    ...Texas Skyways says 2500 hours, right?
    I asked Texas Jack once what kind of testing they had to go through in order to get a 2500 hour TBO. His answer surprised me. "Nothing". I pressed him further. How did you get the FAA to sign off on 2500 hours with no testing? "Because we originally asked for 3000 which they wouldn't give us so they compromised at 2500."

    And that my friends is the very same FAA that is telling us what we can and can not do to our certificated planes.
    Phil Whittemore
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    I asked Texas Jack once what kind of testing they had to go through in order to get a 2500 hour TBO. His answer surprised me. "Nothing". I pressed him further. How did you get the FAA to sign off on 2500 hours with no testing? "Because we originally asked for 3000 which they wouldn't give us so they compromised at 2500."

    And that my friends is the very same FAA that is telling us what we can and can not do to our certificated planes.
    Pponk steve knopp camped out in front of our hanger hauling fish from west side kvichak to build hours on his 182 with original new engine to new limit then was going to tear down in from of FAA to get higher TBO ... late 80’s/ early 90’s....


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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    if you aren't a commercial operator TBO doesn't mean much. The better question is will a PPonk run to 2000 hours better than a standard 470? I have my doubts. Heck, Texas Skyways says 2500 hours, right? Marketing is a powerful tool.
    I saw a C180 for sale a while back with a 1700 hour "mid-time" engine.
    It had a Texas Skyways 520 conversion with that claimed 2500 TBO so I guess it technically it was mid-time,
    although IMHO 1700 hours is stretching that description.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyingde View Post
    ….. I have a S so 1500 tbo. Is the tbo the same on a ponk'd engine?
    As has been pointed out, TBO is just a (sorta arbitrary) number.
    However FWIW TCM has revised their official TBO numbers for a lot of models based on s/n's.
    If applicable, TBO for most of us can go from 1500 hours to 1700.
    See Continental service letter SIL98-9C.

    https://www.continentalmotors.aero/u...20SIL98-9C.pdf
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    That increase is conditional. You have to accumulate 40 hours per month to qualify. Not many private guys do that, but private guys aren't governed by TBO limits anyway. Commercial guys will appreciate the bump, though.

  38. #38
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Note 1 in that service bulletin says to add 200 hours to TBO if consistently flown 40 hours a month, since being placed in service.
    Note 2 says add 200 hours if s/n is 1,006,000 or higher as noted. Doesn't mention frequency of flight.
    Beginning of the SB also says replace or overhaul engine after 12 years in service.
    Most of us are over that (sometimes way over) by the time we hit the specified hours-in-service.
    Luckily, like you said, part 91 guys aren't bound by those limitations
    Last edited by hotrod180; 08-05-2018 at 09:53 AM.
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    FWIW..They also only recommend the higher TBO if the engine is new or rebuilt by the factory.. not a field overhaul.

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    supercub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTV View Post
    Wow you got a quote from them! I called twice and they never sent a quote. Thats higher than the prices I've seen from other shops. When do they estimate they can get you an engine? Every shop seems to be pretty busy now.

    I ended up going with a engine from Knopp because he had one almost ready to go.

    I also talked to Lawson Aviation. Would have gone with them but my engine crapped out and I didn't want the down time for OH into PPonk. Good prices and they build a lot of Pponks. Good guys! They're helping me with field approval even though I didn't have them OH my engine.
    I would say that is very typical. After hearing nothing but good things about Lycon for years, and working for a shop that dealt with them for years, when it came time for me to have an engine overhauled about a year ago, I took it there against advice from a friend that had just had a nightmarish experience with them and had warned me against using them. I can honestly say, it was the worst business dealing I've ever had in my entire life. Since that time I have talked to at least 6 people that have had the same problem, won't return phone calls, no answers when you do get through, and months and months if literally not a year or more to complete work.
    So I'm not surprised they didn't return your phone call. I had documented 27 times they said they would call me back the next day and I waited 2-3 days before calling them back and still couldn't get answers. Extremely frustrating. Was told they would have the engine torn down and inspected and would contact me in 2-3 weeks, I waited 6 weeks to give time, and so not bug them before I tried to contact them, still no answers and it went down hill from there. Another gentleman I talked to was told the same thing, he waited 4 months before contacting them, and they still had not answers for him, same problem as me, they would call him back the next day, which they never did. When I talked to him it had been 6 months, and he wasn't sure what he was going to do.
    Thanks windy thanked for this post
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