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IA question about deleting annual information

Marty57

Marty57

PATRON
Nipomo, Ca
This is not a Super Cub question but you are the best informed group around. A friend has a 1929 Fleet; it was part of a flying museum. The deal with the museum was they can use and fly the Fleet, in exchange they maintain the aircraft. As part of the deal, they did the annual last year on the aircraft. The relationship and tax issues changed, so they dissolved the relationship. nothing was said when the museum owner turned over the log books to the owner of the Fleet about the maintenance or the annual. Looking over the log book, my friend finds out the museum owner took white out and covered up the annual entry in the log book and inked over the IA's signature. Some info is still visible through the white out and ink. Needless to say, this is a mess. What recourse does he have? I would think that altering a log book from an aircraft you do not own is not a good idea. what can the owner do in this case?
Thanks,
Marty57
 
Maybe part 43.12 ? This prohibits alterations for fraudulent purposes. I don't know about museums, but I had it beat into my head that one NEVER altered an entry. For any reason. Period. If something was recorded incorrectly, a further entry was made (corrective entry) that explained what was wrong and what the new information was.

Kind of sounds like some one was trying to 'undo' an annual. The first thing I would do is contact the IA and find out his side of the story. He may wish to pursue his own course of action.

Web
 
I did an annual on a neighbor's plane one year and a couple days after signing it off, he pulled a mag and had it all apart when I came by. I politely asked for the logs and when he handed them to me I cut the annual page out and put it in my pocket. He was mad and called the feds who called me and told me I'd done the proper thing.
This sounds more like just a grudge match and if the museum owner isn't the IA, he's got no right to do that in my opinion. It'd be interesting to hear the other sides to this!
John
 
Can't an owner take a mag apart if reassembly and installation are supervised? Not guessing about your customer's intent, just an honest question.
 
Gordon Misch said:
Thanks Mike. Makes sense, except wouldn't it just be in advance of assembly and installation?
Click to expand...

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/43.3
 
I think I would start with having him arrested for vandalism to establish the case. Also I would see a real lawyer first, even though myself and others here are qualified to give very fine advise. Sorry but this is getting into tricky legal stuff.
 
Just thought about this, there are hard feeling here, wouldn't you want a real through annual done on it anyway. If someone is will to go to this extent what else would they do? Just annual it and get on with flying it safely. Good luck.
 
I was taught you NEVER alter or remove anything... you might X out an entry and then explain why, and sign your name to that explanation ... but never remove a page or such...
 
I am with Mike and Wire. A mechanic is simply obligated by law to make a logbook entry when he exercises the privilege of his license. Once one has made such an entry it would be a federal offense to remove it - everybody knows it is a federal offense to mess with someone else's aircraft, and the logs are a part of that aircraft.

An annual is a snapshot. It says the aircraft is airworthy and conforms right now, and not fifteen minutes in the future. Source: Bill O'Brien. A mechanic entry is saying that whatever was worked on is good to go, so the mechanic is responsible in the future - not so the IA. If the owner removes a mag after you sign, the best thing you can do is record that fact in your records. If you are standing there, do not commit a crime by tearing logbook pages out. Get him to sign and date your record. That takes you off the hook. Even if he doesn't sign, contemporaneous records are as good as it gets for this kind of stuff.

All that is opinion, of course, but they make us study this stuff.

This is true for instructors too. If you give a class and some student brings you a logbook, you are required to sign. Boy, did we piss off a local ground school operation with this one. They refused, until we showed them the reg.
 
If I were the Fleet owner I would take the log book to the FSDO and let them handle it.

Long long ago a friend bought a newly recovered Taylorcraft Model 15 with a "fresh" annual. I went to fly it home from the obviously poorly operated airport. We had to put gas in it as there was none. One fuel tank leaked so we disconnected the fuel line and plugged the fitting to prevent cross feeding from the good tank. Then while taxing to the runway the brakes stopped working. SO since the seller/airport owner was an @#$%^&() I took off and flew it home where it went directly into the shop. You wouldn't believe the number of defects which were found. Mr FAA was called. He made a visit. The IA who "pencil whipped" the annual lost his ticket. (This particular IA, it was learned had been on the FAA's watch list in a different FSDO region than mine). They were pleased to finally catch him.

In my opinion the IA who "maintained" that Fleet didn't look at anything other than the log so that the museum could fly the plane without doing any maintenance at all. He was covering up the fact by obliterating the log entry.
 
Read 43.12(3). You might also read 3.5. Both talk about fraudulent entries, but 43.12 also cover altering entries.

As stated earlier, if it were my airplane, I think I’d want to do another annual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I wrote a big long post but decided I would only offend both parties. I can imagine that both parties let their emotions get the best of them and neither want to get the FAA involved since they both could have issues. I would never white out or remove a logbook entry but have found other ways to get even without doing anything that will get me into trouble. Unfortunatley I am not good at forgiving and forgetting so I would not work with either party.
 
Thanks for the comments guys. The owner is going to talk to the IA first and let him know he will be heading to the the FSDO if the log book is not corrected. The rub is this was done without the knowledge of the owner. The information regarding the annual can be read through the white out with a bright light it turns out so it will be interesting to see what the FAA has to say about the issue tomorrow.
Thanks,
Marty57
 
kase said:
Why did he take the mag apart?
Click to expand...

Said he wanted to see if he could figure out how it worked.
Sounds like I was wrong in doing what I did, but my PMI sure backed me. As he said, your name, your entry, your option to retract. That was in the late 80's early 90's... I'd still do the same thing today. Problem with your idea that an "annual is only a snapshot" is that it doesn't quite work that way. I've spent a day in court, proving innocence. But, that's just my experience.
I agree with Marty, it'll be interesting to see what the feds say tomorrow on this deal. I can't imagine using white out on a log book entry.
John
 
You lose the option to retract when you return the logs to the owner. The only way to retract is as outlined above by Mike and Wire - draw a line through it, state "entered in error" and sign and date it. Once you return the logs, you cannot touch them without the owner's permission.
 
Medical field is the same way. You can line through anything and put you name at the end. That way if a question arises they know who to talk to. I do a lot of my own work HOWEVER!! I talk to my IA beforehand and he usually says pull it over to his hanger so he has supervision or he comes by and looks at my work. I prefer to do it at his hanger so I can steal all the small parts I do not have!!! I am sure if I had pulled my mags without my IA approval there would be hell to pay one way or another!! It is a old guy thing, we take responsibility for things when we put our name down!!! I gave out a lot of sound advice that was never followed, it took years to get my hide thick enough to understand that people will do what they want to do no matter what I said!!! I would still give sound medical advice, write it down, and took care of them when they did not follow my advice. Human nature is a sometimes perplexing thing.
DENNY
 
I was buying a plane with a 'fresh annual'. As I was discussing the annual with the IA as we were getting ready to fuel the plane and push it out, I asked the IA about the carb and AD's to be sure it was all signed off and correct. .

An hour later the guy I was buying the plane from told me the IA tore the annual sign off out of the log book and left.

Any guesses as to the compliance of the carb?
 
Maybe IAs need to take a course in Professional Responsibility. The proper thing there is "geez, I am glad you mentioned that! I will take care of it and sign that off before the sale."

The lesson here is never, ever leave your logs with the mechanic. When you give him/her the check, the logs must be in your hands. Easier than suing them for trespass. Or conversion - logbooks being held hostage is common. When a dispute arises, a mechanics lien is a better answer.
 
I think back to the '70s when I was starting out in aviation, working under supervision. A mechanic from another field comes in and lines up a row of logbooks along a bench. This guy did allot of Stinson 108 rebuilds as well as general work. I wandered past that bench to fetch something and noticed $20s in the pages, good money 40 some years ago.
I came to form a vision of who was training me.
Not long after a Cessna fresh out of Annual from the other field went into the trees on takeoff. Had fresh signature from our field in it's books. Fuel valve was sticky and only partially open.
The mechanic I was working for suddenly moved on to an airport up in Maine, no clue if he had other legal issues.
I put the 2&2 together early in my career and new better than to play that game. I guess there are those that still feel it necessary to make money fudging entry's or signatures.
 
bob turner said:
.....The lesson here is never, ever leave your logs with the mechanic. When you give him/her the check, the logs must be in your hands. Easier than suing them for trespass. Or conversion - logbooks being held hostage is common. When a dispute arises, a mechanics lien is a better answer.
Click to expand...

I prefer to keep my logbooks in my possession.
Mechanic gets them during annual to check AD compliance, etc.
Gets them again to do inspection or repair sign-offs, after which he gets paid.
Usually in cash.
A lot of mechanics don't like doing paperwork, and tend to put it off-
to me , it seems like just part of the job.
In any event, a handful of money is often pretty good incentive to get it done.

I've witnessed a few incidents where logbooks were lost--
usually just misplaced, or mistakenly put in with the wrong customer's paperwork.
But I did hear about one situation where logbooks were stolen as retaliation in a personal feud.
Another where the mechanic died and his customers played hell getting their logbooks from his heirs--
"you're not taking dad's stuff!".
I've also seen where logbooks etc were left laying around, in a high traffic area with lots of people coming and going.
Pretty easy for them to disappear and nobody knows a thing about it.
 
RaisedByWolves said:
The log books leave there hands when they drop the airplane off and get put in a fire proof gun safe until the airplane leaves. Seems like the best place for me. I don't like keeping them once the airplane leaves.
Click to expand...

I do the same. If you don't trust me with your logbooks why would you trust me with your airplane. There are a lot of instances where I go back and research an issue in the logs to see if something has been worked on before. I also spend quite a bit of time in the logs on the first annual inspection. I can guarantee you don't want to stand behind me while I do the first AD research, you might hear words that you don't want to hear.
 
Many years ago, I left my airplane's logbooks with my mechanic.....including between annuals. Airplane went from wheels to skis, to wheels, to floats, so in and out a lot.....convenient. At one point, I got the books, and when I went through them, the first logbook from 1952 was missing. It had a lot of signatures that were really cool in it.

I seriously doubt if any skulduggery was involved, and I blame only myself for being lazy, and not taking care of the books myself.

On the subject of AD compliance, I looked at an airplane whose Annual inspection entries all said "all ADs complied with". But the logs didn't include an AD applicability list. Went through the logs previous, and looked for a couple ADs that I know about that are required.....and no logbook entry that specifically verified that those ADs were complied with.....just "all ADs complied with" on every annual. Two fairly expensive ADs with no specific notation of compliance......no thanks.

MTV
 
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