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Rudder approaches

S2D

MEMBER
Montana
Was reading on another site, the concept of only using the rudder during approaches and basically leaving the ailerons alone. Is this a new concept or am I way behind times ??
 
Was reading on another site, the concept of only using the rudder during approaches and basically leaving the ailerons alone. Is this a new concept or am I way behind times ??
I was wondering the same thing, i guess I've been doing it wrong for a long time.
 
Maybe for tiny heading corrections on an instrument approach??? But how can a coordinated turn be bad?
 
The manufacturers installed ailerons for some reason or other. You paid for them. Why not use them? Now, there is such a thing as inappropriate use of aileron, of course, but to argue you shouldn't use ailerons during an approach is simplistic and misleading.....if that was all that was suggested.

MTV
 
I find a lot of experienced pilots steering with ailerons when solidly on the ground. The nose darts left, the stick darts right, the fun begins!

I was taught to do coordinated but very shallow turns to keep the localizer centered. Three degree heading change, then have a look.
 
Are you talking the entire pattern or just on short final? When I am trying to get real slow in ground effect I try to use only the rudder, just like you would to hold off/correct a stall. It is very hard not to use the aileron unless you practice it a bit. Long flights I usually just use rudder to keep heading sort of the direction I want to go. Yanking and banking out of ground effect I try to stay coordinated. Then you get the forward slip for cross wind correction issue.
DENNY
 
Had a great instructor early on teach me 2 things: Fly the heading, not the localizer needle, and unless really strong winds are present, once on the localizer, all heading changes should be within the width of the triangle shaped heading bug.. and for me, changing heading means a coordinated turn.
 
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Rudder alone will produce a side slip, not an actual turn, although the Pitts has sufficient fuselage lift that it will turn with wings level and rudder. Most aircraft will just revert to original track when you release rudder not having turned.

Second effect of rudder is roll, so leaving ailerons to their own devices will lead to a spiral dive - I assume they mean keeping wings level with ailerons and changing heading with rudder, but as said above this produces side slip, not a turn.

In the flare you are keeping straight with rudder.


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I've ridden in the back of Cubs flown by large pilots while counting salmon. There was only so much room for aileron deflection before the stick hit their legs apparently. They used lots of rudder to turn and little aileron. Nobody was harmed in those experiments.

Gary
 
Was reading on another site, the concept of only using the rudder during approaches and basically leaving the ailerons alone. Is this a new concept or am I way behind times ??

If it's the site and the poster I think it is, you have to use "dynamic proactive and reactive" controls etc.
IMHO he's kinda made up a lot of his own shtick.
Might work for him but generally speaking I'll stick with what I've learned (and can understand).
 
If it's the site and the poster I think it is, you have to use "dynamic proactive and reactive" controls etc.
IMHO he's kinda made up a lot of his own shtick.
Might work for him but generally speaking I'll stick with what I've learned (and can understand).
Yep all those fancy words kinda confused me :)

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Been around a long time, just a different technique for flying an ILS, once centered keep it centered with rudder. . I don't do it, I fly headings works good. I suppose if the needle moves left stepping on it to keep it put would work but I think the pax might get sick
 
I've ridden in the back of Cubs flown by large pilots while counting salmon. There was only so much room for aileron deflection before the stick hit their legs apparently. They used lots of rudder to turn and little aileron. Nobody was harmed in those experiments.

Gary

With full flaps, especially with a long (standard) flap handle you can not get a -18 stick against the left side.

Shorten the flap handle, offset the stick to the right a few degrees and you can get full deflection both ways.

Cranking and banking for fish counts... yea, coordinated is not always the solution- goal is to keep the guy in the back where he can see as much of the stream as possible. So you kick rudder to hold a slip, then you need to rudder it back the other way because your airspeed went to zero from the downdraft off the hill...

fun times! Best job I ever had.
 
Been around a long time, just a different technique for flying an ILS, once centered keep it centered with rudder. . I don't do it, I fly headings works good. I suppose if the needle moves left stepping on it to keep it put would work but I think the pax might get sick

I've seen it a lot in instrument flight training to keep people from over correcting on the ILS - but it is just for training. I have a friend who teaches rectangular patterns to new students with just rudder - so they get a really firm concept of what the rudders do.

sj
 
A few years ago a Waco crashed a few miles from here. Nobody hurt, but they said the aileron cable broke and they lost control. After a little hanger talk, I went out and did a little test. Using only the rudder and throttle I could turn, climb, descend, and find a field and could land. I DID NOT LAND, but I could have. Might not be pretty but survivable. I never used ailerons or elevator. Go try it. Amazing the control you have.


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Something else to consider, in the flare some earlier designs exhibit “aileron reversal” when the wing you are trying to lift with Ailton stalls and drops. Had it happen with the Howard in a xwind, scared the **** out of me. After that, ailerons were neutral when in the flare, all corrections were done with the rudder.


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If it's the site and the poster I think it is, you have to use "dynamic proactive and reactive" controls etc.
IMHO he's kinda made up a lot of his own shtick.
Might work for him but generally speaking I'll stick with what I've learned (and can understand).

HA! I know EXACTLY who you are talking about :roll:
 
I think the person in question might be talking about initially teaching people how not to use the aileron to correct for nose yawing like many have a tendency to do on short final and thru the flair. I'm a terrible teacher so not about to question other people's methods
Just trying to understand them.

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Been flying instruments for most of my life and trying to fly a ILS with rudder is "plane" stupid. I guess the gentleman never heard of vertigo, but if he ever flys in weather not the hood he will. When a correction is needed on a approach it needs to be made quick and accurately and rudder won't do that. When shooting a single engine cat II By hand see how well rudder work,lol for the faint of heart use a sim.
 
Something else to consider, in the flare some earlier designs exhibit “aileron reversal” when the wing you are trying to lift with Ailton stalls and drops. Had it happen with the Howard in a xwind, scared the **** out of me. After that, ailerons were neutral when in the flare, all corrections were done with the rudder.


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Maybe touchdown on the upwind wheel with a little more speed if you have enough runway and keep the stick into the wind. I need to practice my xwind landings in gusty winds.. they haven't been pretty lately and I don't want to sideload the gear, sometimes its not easy keeping that nose strait down the track
 
I agree with all of you on this. What type of airplane was the person talking about? I've flown a Lake and it's predecessor Colonial Skimmer a lot. It does very well on rudder alone. Due to the airplane's configuration the rudder actually causes the appropriate wing to rise. You can fly and land on water using rudder and pitch trim alone. For a land landing with the gear down the nose up trim requirement is inadequate. You can fly coordinated all day long using rudder alone.
 
If that is Contact you are talking of, most of rudder only stuff is in ground effect (crop dusting) where you want wings level. Yes he is hard to understand but once you slow down and read/understand what he wrote it comes together. Just don't expect to read a post and understand it the first time around.
DENNY
 
If that is Contact you are talking of, most of rudder only stuff is in ground effect (crop dusting) where you want wings level.
DENNY


In ground effect, I don't think rudder only works well either. Flagold had a good dissertation on that years ago . Go see what happens when you go ducking and dodging around stuff wings level at that altitude. Actually takes a lot of opposite aileron to accomplish properly.


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Brian: You say you are a terrible teacher----????? Seems you did O.K. with our friend a few miles east of you. Have flown in several different planes with him in a variety of conditions and have always been totally at ease...... geezer Dan
 
Well, I might be a little late to the discussion....but.

The more I learn the humbler I get. I think God gave us two feet for rudders, one hand for the stick and other for the throttle. I sorta was trained by others and myself to use them that way. Also, somewhere along the line I was taught to "use all available information", which easily transfers, for me to, "use all available airplane parts". Not having flaps on the Legend Cub, or the Ford Tri-Motor for that matter, makes that process one step easier...and makes the controls I do have that much more useful.

I guess flying is so much fun partly because you have to work at it and whats's happening is always changing.
 
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