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Stall or turbulence

S2D

MEMBER
Montana
The thread showing the guy stall his airplane at a landing contest and subsequent start of a spin got me to thinking (yea I know Thats dangerous)

Suppose you are doing the typical too low and too slow moose observation circle and suddenly your left wing and nose starts to drop.

How do you instantly know it is a stall and not wake turbulence, and do you react the same to both situations.
 
The new training for "upset recovery" the FAA is pushing is "Push, roll, power". It is considered simple, immediate and easily executed. While I am not too excited about going lower for wake turbulence, pull up is often a quicker and safer path, I understand the need to develop a simple and easily executed procedure for all LOC situations. The basic idea is to unload the airplane to a 0.5g condition that makes the wing and controls more effective and in that respect, "push" is a good plan and it works for all attitudes even inverted. Roll is get the horizon and roll the shortest way. Power either retard or add power as needed to stabilize the aircraft. We sent out a bunch of guys to fly in an Extra 300 and the aircraft was put in every conceivable upset situations including inverted flight and push, roll, power recovered every time. As I said it is not the end all to be all but it is a pretty good plan when you are startled by LOC.
 
I don't understand how "push" would be desirable in a descending spiral or inverted? Maybe "neutralize"?
 
As a student I took off too close behind a Beaver at a small airstrip. Another time around 5,000 hours I succumbed to an incipient moose stall---passenger was filming nine moose together on a tiny peninsula, wing going down, limp stick. Both times I could only remember the line in Stick and Rudder: when in trouble reduce AOA. Worked for me.
 
I don't understand how "push" would be desirable in a descending spiral or inverted? Maybe "neutralize"?

Inverted you want to push, to keep the nose dropping through the horizon. In a tight spiral, pushing will unload the airplane and prevent tightening the spiral. With the airplane unload the controls are more effective to roll out.
 
Pushing while inverted will raise the nose, not "keep it dropping through the horizon". Unless pushing enough to stall it, I guess! To unload, just neutralize pitch inputs??


Aerobatics guys??
 
Pushing while inverted will increase AOA and worsen your situation.....the wrong response, and you only get one shot at this. The appropriate response is "elevator through neutral", as taught by Rich Stowell. Regardless of whether you're inverted or upright, that will reduce AOA.

I think the biggest issue with the so called "moose stall", and the most difficult to simulate in training, is the surprise. There is all kinds of documentation of how long it takes to respond to a true surprise. Firearms training faces the same issue. Stand out there at a range with a pistol holstered, waiting for a target to face is a whole different situation than while you're checking someone's fishing license, he pulls out a pistol and starts shooting.

About the only thing we can do is, as GeeBee suggests, develop a basic set of procedures to perform any time an unusual attitude occurs. So, yes, "Pitch, roll, power" works, but the pitch has to represent stick through neutral, not "push".

Now, understand that in most standard category aircraft, the likelihood of getting upside down is pretty low, but in aerobatics, it's actually a lot higher.

I highly recommend Rich's books and videos, especially, "Emergency Maneuver Training". I also highly recommend flying with Rich if you have the opportunity. He is the "Spin Master" after all. He's done more looking into the "moose stall" and developed procedures to use in the event you get there than anyone I know of. His web site is: http://www.richstowell.com/

MTV
 
I highly recommend Rich's books and videos, especially, "Emergency Maneuver Training". I also highly recommend flying with Rich if you have the opportunity. He is the "Spin Master" after all. He's done more looking into the "moose stall" and developed procedures to use in the event you get there than anyone I know of. His web site is: http://www.richstowell.com/

MTV
[h=5]After 30 years providing spin, EMT, and aerobatic instruction on a regular basis, Rich has decided to take a sabbatical from daily flight training to work on other aviation projects. If you are looking to contact us on another matter, please use the standard contact form.[/h]
 
Nope, I've rolled several transport category aircraft in the simulator and unless you are full stick forward you will fall out very quickly with a resulting acceleration that would be unsurvivable. Most aerobatic aircraft can go stick neutral because of their airfoil, but I've also rolled some standard category aircraft, (being young and stupid) that require significant stick forward, so "push" is a good move for the non aerobatic pilot who finds himself inverted.
These are the guys I flew with and I think the video and web page make for a good read

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1TUJprbEuA

https://apstraining.com/unusual-attitude-recovery/
 
We were taught push as well (at FlightSafety in the sim), as the instinct for most pilots is to pull to get away from the ground. Pulling when inverted is what they were trying to discourage.
 
The thread showing the guy stall his airplane at a landing contest and subsequent start of a spin got me to thinking (yea I know Thats dangerous)

Suppose you are doing the typical too low and too slow moose observation circle and suddenly your left wing and nose starts to drop.

How do you instantly know it is a stall and not wake turbulence, and do you react the same to both situations.

Back to the original question as I have no idea on inverted as I work hard to stay upright, (even walking), It does not matter if it is a stall, or wake turbulence, because if it is the dreaded WT it will induce a stall anyway if you are really on edge.

Since both result in the same situation, (full pucker of all major orifices) STALL, the reaction should be the same- push both hands forward fast and stand on the uphill rudder.

If you are anywhere close to a moose stall situation, a good GUMP check getting into your observation mode should be done to prevent 'popping' a tank or other 'fun' happenings, and your hands should be on the throttle and stick... so both forward gives power and relaxes the elevator, and at the same time your rudder can be applied with your foot.
 
"Roll" is another area that needs attention. A LOT of pilots will react to the dropping wing with the ailerons (very understandable) but as we all know, going very far with the stick is only going to get you deeper in the doo. The thing that concerns me is that a lot of the newer crop of instructors teach spin avoidance (not bad, unto itself) but not any true recovery. At the first burble they have you pushing it over and flying again. Rudder skills seem to be waning these days. Jeez, listen to me...
 
Right on, Perry. I did quite a few spins in my primary training. Then kept doing them for fun. Saved my bacon once when turning too tight, cuz the correction was reflexive. Thanks Steve Hewitt (my primary instructor).
 
Speaking of mis-using ailerons: I see a lot of otherwise well qualified pilots steering with them while landing. It takes me literally dozens of hours to get the aileron into the wind, and dozens of hours spraying dope on wingtips when they forget.

Nobody teaches this any more. But the Feds are demanding stabilized approaches in J-3 Cubs on checkrides.

The original stall with wing drop: anybody know if that aircraft had VGs? My Cubs do not drop a wing in straight ahead stalled flight.
 
Unload (usually an affirmative push) and simultaneously step on the sky (with the appropriate rudder pedal). Roll via the stick isn't going to cut it on a stock cub wing once said wing is stalled. No flow, no go.

Sent from my [device_name] using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Not recomended in an early husky. I know a guy who survived the exact situation while working low level. In the early huskies, they pitch nose straight down at the ground in your own wake. This situation was level and through the last pass. Just said tail came up and he was looking straight at the ground. Stick full frwrd, full power, then stick back before impact. Broke the crews backs and panckaked the huskie. I believe theres a pic foating around on the internet somewhere. This exact charectoristic is why aphis and border patrol no longer uses them.
 
Not recomended in an early husky. I know a guy who survived the exact situation while working low level. In the early huskies, they pitch nose straight down at the ground in your own wake. This situation was level and through the last pass. Just said tail came up and he was looking straight at the ground. Stick full frwrd, full power, then stick back before impact. Broke the crews backs and panckaked the huskie. I believe theres a pic foating around on the internet somewhere. This exact charectoristic is why aphis and border patrol no longer uses them.

That “characteristic” evaded me in a few thousand hours of working Huskys at low level. And I’ve tried many times to demonstrate it. I’ve flown the airplane very aggressively trying to get it to depart, with never a hint of the tail departing in a stall. I’ve also flown with and discussed this with the two test pilots who were able to reproduce this “characteristic”, but they had to go through some significant machinations to get there, like use two airplanes, in VERY aggressive maneuvering.

The Husky accidents I’ve seen discussed were clearly “standard” stall/spin accidents. In one case I know of the Pilot was killed, but the passenger survived. Looking at that wreckage, it’s hard to believe anyone survived. But that was clearly a stall/spin, with rotation at impact.

FWIW.

MTV
 
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Suppose you are at the critical angle of attack when you hit the wake turbulence. Wouldn't aileron input to correct for the roll cause the down wing to stall further aggravating the problem?
On the other hand wouldn't rudder input to the skyward wing cause that wing to slow down stalling it and start a spin that way?

Obviously unloading the wing should be the first reflex, but in wake turbulence are things always as they should be?
 
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In "roll" if you read what is written they say, "use the rudder" but use it judiciously. Especially on transport airplanes. But even FAR 23 Normal category can not accept a lot of rudder abuse during a time of stall. I found that out when I had my head up my butt with a student doing approach to landing stalls in an AA-1A. Besides saying "NO SPINS" with a big red placard I found out when you do inadvertently enter a spin, you can damage the stab getting it out.

Look guys, this procedure is the "oh s***" procedure. It is designed for survival not conscious aviating. It is like the "land straight ahead" when the engine fails. You and I both know we can make it back to the runway at 500' with skill. Will that skill be there when you are surprised? When the proverbial excrement hits the fan, often times you have to go to survival mode and that is what this procedure represents. Is it the perfect way to exit a spin? No. Will it get you out of one? Yes. That was the point of this OP here. What to do when you don't know what to do or what happened.
 
That “characteristic” evaded me in a few thousand hours of working Huskys at low level. And I’ve tried many times to demonstrate it. I’ve flown the airplane very aggressively trying to get it to depart, with never a hint of the tail departing in a stall. I’ve also flown with and discussed this with the two test pilots who were able to reproduce this “characteristic”, but they had to go through some significant machinations to get there, like use two airplanes, in VERY aggressive maneuvering.

The Husky accidents I’ve seen discussed were clearly “standard” stall/spin accidents. In one case I know of the Pilot was killed, but the passenger survived. Looking at that wreckage, it’s hard to believe anyone survived. But that was clearly a stall/spin, with rotation at impact.

FWIW.

MTV

Funny, the guy i know said "ive got thousands of husky hours and never had a problem". Right up until he did. He said the only reason he survived was hanger talk he'd heard about the matter.
 
Funny, the guy i know said "ive got thousands of husky hours and never had a problem". Right up until he did. He said the only reason he survived was hanger talk he'd heard about the matter.

Yeah, there's a lot of he said/she said in the aviation world......much of it BS. Count the number of folks who've died in Super Cubs over the years in similar circumstances. Bottom line is you've got to fly the airplane, whatever flavor of airplane you choose to fly.

MTV
 
This story came directly from the pilot. It was after level off and dropping in to point of intrest. Kind of like ghosts. Ive never seen one but im not going to say they dont exist. I completly agree. Fly de plane.
 
In the early huskies, they pitch nose straight down at the ground in your own wake. This situation was level and through the last pass. Just said tail came up and he was looking straight at the ground. Stick full frwrd, full power, then stick back before impact.


since the tail is supposedly a wing with down lift ( or is it just a wind deflector) couldn't a properly placed downdraft ( wake turbulence) stall the tail causing it to pitch up dramatically. especially if the elevators were deflected upward and you stalled the wing at the same time ?

I'm getting way above my aerodynamics education level !!!
 
Large flaps and/or a sideways flying fuselage have a way of sometimes disturbing flow and down pressure over the tail too.

Gary
 
And wouldnt an O-360 with constant speed prop make it more nose heavy exacerbating the issue on those a-model huskies?
 
And could be that the reason some a1-a drivers have never experienced it is becous mabe it takes certain air qualities. Like mabe a no wind day with a temp inversion which could cause the wake to hang in the same spot longer?
 
And could be that the reason some a1-a drivers have never experienced it is becous mabe it takes certain air qualities. Like mabe a no wind day with a temp inversion which could cause the wake to hang in the same spot longer?

It would happen in a Super Cub, Scout or any other airplane for that matter. Dirty air low to the ground can be dangerous in ANY airplane, not just Husky's.
 
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