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Thread: Thoughts on the Pa-11?

  1. #1

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    Thoughts on the Pa-11?

    I have been approached about a homebuilt Pa-11 that is powered by a 0-200 no flaps with Pa-18 tail surfaces that's for sale. The fuselage and wings are from Nick Smith and has wing tanks. Now I am new to the Pa-11 and I am interested to know how this aircraft would perform compared to a heavier flap equipped 0-320/0-360 Super Cub as I am looking at a Amphibian equipped 180hp homebuilt Smith Cub too? I would be operating mostly from pavement too so my concern would be operating on pavement. Would VG's help this aircraft out with its slow speed control? Also is there a good light weight amphib float that would work well on a Pa-11?

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cook11 View Post
    I have been approached about a homebuilt Pa-11 that is powered by a 0-200 no flaps with Pa-18 tail surfaces that's for sale. The fuselage and wings are from Nick Smith and has wing tanks. Now I am new to the Pa-11 and I am interested to know how this aircraft would perform compared to a heavier flap equipped 0-320/0-360 Super Cub as I am looking at a Amphibian equipped 180hp homebuilt Smith Cub too? I would be operating mostly from pavement too so my concern would be operating on pavement. Would VG's help this aircraft out with its slow speed control? Also is there a good light weight amphib float that would work well on a Pa-11?

    Thanks!
    If that aircraft is not over build and heavy is should be one of the nicest flying airplanes you ever have a chance of flying. Whats the empty weight?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  3. #3

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    Cubdriver2 the empty weight is 747lbs with a Gross weight of 1400lbs. The Pa-11 has electrics too so it does not need to be hand propped. Seeing your avatar I have also been looking at a J4 Super Cub Coupe that is for sale too. I am not sure if I have talked to you on the forum about it but.....The J4 fuselage is lengthened with Pa-18 tail surfaces. The wing is Pa-18 that is extended with flaps and drooped leading edge. C-FVES is the registration.

    Cheers!

  4. #4
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    My C90-8 11 weighed 790 in dope and 101 fabric bare bone with 800x4 wheels and tires and metal prop. I'm almost flying the same configuration now with lite weight starter, B&C lite dynamo and a 3.9lb earthX battery. On 31" BW and safety cables it's 874lbs. 31" BW and tires are 44+ lbs heavier then 800x4 tire and wheels so 830 lbs on 800x4s. Not saying 747lbs is wrong but tough to see how they got there. But, mine was 760ish before I added things. mam90, whats yours weigh again?

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 01-31-2018 at 12:52 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  5. #5

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    Lets just say I agree with you- I'm suspicious of 747 with any electrics. Mines within a few pounds of yours Glenn...
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    I have asked for empty weight confirmation. Comparing it to a 150-160hp Super Cub how does the Pa-11 compare? Do VG's help the Pa-11's during the landing/takeoff phase since there are no flaps?

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    My opinion is the 11 is great if you're not hauling big loads out of short strips. I take mine to Alaska every few years to fish and as long as I'm reasonable with my load I can fly alongside all my buddies with 18's. I like my VG's, but if you search this site you'll find plenty of varied opinions. But it's not reasonable to compare it to an 18 because they're different airplanes with different missions. If I still lived in AK, I'd likely have an 18.
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    I am curious to know what the Pa-18 tail surfaces would do to the handling characteristics? How have the VG's been of use for you mam90? Do you have your Pa-11 on floats? What is your useful load?

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    750# is not unreasonable for a computed weight, starting with factory numbers. Get near a scale and you will add a hundred pounds, even without electrics. I do not know why.

    I certainly agree about the different mission for a 150/160 Cub and these light and fast J-3-like cowled Cubs. And having flown the 150/160/180 versions with all sorts of mods, if you go Super Cub, you will like the handling of a stock, light 160 (x-member and shoulder harnesses for safety).

    I have flown a J-3 with balanced elevators. Flew ok, but in comparison to a stock J-3 there is only one word: YUK!

    All opinion.
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  10. #10

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    Cook, I’m on wheels, happy with my 18 tail and VG’s, and if useful load is important you should get an 18.... luckily I only weigh 150 pounds.......

  11. #11
    S2D's Avatar
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    really too bad they set the gross weight at 1400 lbs tho.
    AFNB

  12. #12
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Im with the others on the 747 empty weight. Seems light especialy beings that they had to do something to get a 1400# max. I will differ with the others on the limits of an -11. Only time i worry about strip lenght is under hot and heavy conditions with strips under 800' or so (loaded up).
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    Get it in the door and haul it.
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  13. #13

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    Ed, couldn’t agree more.. just trying to be a little diplomatic here in an open forum........��

  14. #14
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    Cook, Im on wheels, happy with my 18 tail and VGs, and if useful load is important you should get an 18.... luckily I only weigh 150 pounds.......
    I soled my son at 110lbs in mine, just imagine if you can what that must have been like for him

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  15. #15
    pa11driver's Avatar
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    I learned to fly in a PA-11. Since then I've flown everything from light sport to heavy Boeing aircraft and it's still my favorite airplane to fly. Performance when the weight is kept reasonable is great as well.
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  16. #16

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    If I needed to go LSA my pick would be hands down a PA-11. Its both certified and LSA. My father has an O-200 powered 11 with modern (light weight) starter, alternator, battery, and radio on a set of Baumann 1500 floats. Not sure on the propeller but it definitely doesn't favor cruise speed. Yes its easy to hand prop but watching someone in their mid 70's getting in and out of it, thinking of what it would be like in a river with swift current, a starter is a good thing. Necessary no, smart yes. what a great performer! Every time I fly it I jump out with a big grin on my face, it reminds me how much fun flying can be. Question is what's your mission? Speed or heavy hauling not the airplane. 100 mile radius and weekend gear its a perfect airplane. Hire someone every once and a while to get the bulk gear to your remote location and you get to have all the fun. Unlike some of the newer aircraft in this category you can find new and used parts all over the place. The one mod that would make it near perfect is an 18 top cabin and seat. Atlee never had an 18 for his himself just a J-3 modified to an 11 with an O-200 and 18 top cabin on EDO 1400's.
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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    My Pa11 was 799 without electrics. 8.50x6 tires amd double puck brakes. O-235 Lycoming

    836 with Battery, starter,and gen.

    before and after VG's.......with vg's the aileron authority was much better at slow speeds. Not really gonna say it got off shorter with the VG's.

    stock unbalanced tail. 2 18 gallon wing tanks.

    Great airplane, but I was always thinking of owning a SuperCub. ...flaps, 150 hp, better visibility, higher gross, easier access to STC'ed "improvements". Bigger skis and the horrspower to get them unstuck. faster cruise.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yentnacruiser View Post
    If I needed to go LSA my pick would be hands down a PA-11. Its both certified and LSA. My father has an O-200 powered 11 with modern (light weight) starter, alternator, battery, and radio on a set of Baumann 1500 floats. Not sure on the propeller but it definitely doesn't favor cruise speed. Yes its easy to hand prop but watching someone in their mid 70's getting in and out of it, thinking of what it would be like in a river with swift current, a starter is a good thing. Necessary no, smart yes. what a great performer! Every time I fly it I jump out with a big grin on my face, it reminds me how much fun flying can be. Question is what's your mission? Speed or heavy hauling not the airplane. 100 mile radius and weekend gear its a perfect airplane. Hire someone every once and a while to get the bulk gear to your remote location and you get to have all the fun. Unlike some of the newer aircraft in this category you can find new and used parts all over the place. The one mod that would make it near perfect is an 18 top cabin and seat. Atlee never had an 18 for his himself just a J-3 modified to an 11 with an O-200 and 18 top cabin on EDO 1400's.
    Im looking for a set of Baumann 1500’s for my J-3/PA-11. Sounds like my Cub is set up much like your Dad’s. I’m heading up to AK in July, maybe I’ll run into you. I’d love to see his float installation..

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  20. #20

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    what could they do to raise the gross wt to 1400 lbs, I see no problem with a 1400 lb gross wt, now that basic med is in effect. It simple means you could put two people in the plane and still have room for fuel.

  21. #21
    JP's Avatar
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    PA-11? Can't say enough good about the Cub Special. It's a bridge Cub and for what it is it does a great deal really, really well. And, best of all, it's an absolute joy to fly. Really hard to put it back in the hangar most days.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special

  22. #22
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Mam, nice cub. What brand wheel skis you got on that?

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    Those are Summit LSA skis, which I miraculously got a field approval for......

    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    PA-11? Can't say enough good about the Cub Special. It's a bridge Cub and for what it is it does a great deal really, really well. And, best of all, it's an absolute joy to fly. Really hard to put it back in the hangar most days.
    If you ate more JP youd have more beef to push with. 135 lbs vs 800... why do you think its hard to put back in?


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone

  25. #25
    JP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    If you ate more JP you’d have more beef to push with. 135 lbs vs 800... why do you think it’s hard to put back in?


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone
    I just don't want to put it back, period. Especially on those magical summer nights over Spud Land.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
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  26. #26
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    Thoughts on the Pa-11?

    I dont dare weigh mine, although Id like to just out of curiosity. It weighed in at 866 at the Johnson Brothers place, with a no-electric c90, Dakota wings and spars, 24 gallon wing tank, -18 top deck, exp. -18 front seat, pa-20 feathers, full interior and 850s.

    Since then... well heck, lets just say like its owner it likes to eat.
    Added a 4 lb battery, radio and wiring for probably 3 lbs, wind generator of 5 lbs if I remember right, 4 lb light bar, and 29 ABWs.
    So before shoehorning myself into the seat Id guess Im pushing 900+ all day. I did lose the metal prop and shaved some front end weight.

    Like Dave said, I dream about more.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  27. #27
    JP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    I don’t dare weigh mine, although I’d like to just out of curiosity. It weighed in at 866 at the Johnson Brothers place, with a no-electric c90, Dakota wings and spars, 24 gallon wing tank, -18 top deck, exp. -18 front seat, pa-20 feathers, full interior and 850’s.

    Since then... well heck, let’s just say like it’s owner it likes to eat.
    Added a 4 lb battery, radio and wiring for probably 3 lbs, wind generator of 5 lbs if I remember right, 4 lb light bar, and 29” ABW’s.
    So before shoehorning myself into the seat I’d guess I’m pushing 900+ all day. I did lose the metal prop and shaved some front end weight.

    Like Dave said, I dream about more.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    That freakin' light bar....

    860 here. Oh, well....
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special

  28. #28
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Heres another monkey wrench I'll throw into the equation. Some lucky pilots only get one shot in a lifetime to own a pa11. A super cub you can find most times in a couple months. I have been blessed to own one for 2200hrs and get to fly 3 others, so far.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  29. #29
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dryfarmer View Post
    what could they do to raise the gross wt to 1400 lbs, I see no problem with a 1400 lb gross wt, now that basic med is in effect. It simple means you could put two people in the plane and still have room for fuel.
    The OP is talking about an experimental 11, but with a certified 11, probably lots of money and a few modifications. My 11 has PA-18 strut fittings and a SC topdeck. I'm sure given enough money the GW could be increased to 1500 lbs. In spite of the Basic Med passage, there are still points for the Light Sport Option.
    AFNB
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  30. #30

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    My 11 at the 3:00 minute mark on Baumann 1500 A floats. If it doesn't work its on youtube under Greenville Maine International seaplane fly-in 2010. mine is heavy with extended wings, micro VG's, 1 17 gallon wing tank, c90-8, mac 1B90 prop. May have had Willy B's prop on in video. https://youtu.be/9F6AJNIpx98
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  31. #31
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douten View Post
    My 11 at the 3:00 minute mark on Baumann 1500 A floats. If it doesn't work its on youtube under Greenville Maine International seaplane fly-in 2010. mine is heavy with extended wings, micro VG's, 1 17 gallon wing tank, c90-8, mac 1B90 prop. May have had Willy B's prop on in video. https://youtu.be/9F6AJNIpx98
    Good video, thought maybe it was going to be a Citabria commercial

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  32. #32
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Having some experience with Nick Smith's wings and fuel tanks I would put it on a set of scales before I would even concider it. The PA11 is a sweet flying airplane unless it gets heavy.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  33. #33
    Waldo M's Avatar
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    PA-11 empty weights, serial number 11-284. This is a "stock" PA-11 with no electrical system. It had an A65 engine and a wood prop on it until recently.
    As delivered from Piper, 1947; 736 pounds
    Reweigh after restoration, 2013; 754
    Reweigh after C90-8F install, 2016; 775
    After metal prop install, 2017; 789
    With Federal A-1500 skis installed, add 10 pounds net.
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  34. #34

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    According to the bbi aviation website the specs are as follows for there Pa-11:
    Empty 850lbs
    Gross "Experimental" 1800lbs
    Gross "LSA" 1300lbs
    Gross "LSA water" 1400lbs
    Canadian Advanced Ultralight 1232lbs

  35. #35
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    I have an uncle who sprayed from the 60s up until about 15 years ago. Hes worked just about every ag plane. He did a lot of spraying with super cubs in the sixties. His own hanger on the ranch was always occupied by pa-11's.
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  36. #36
    Waldo M's Avatar
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    I worked Ag a very long time ago, mostly in Ag-Cats and Stearmans but some in PA-18As. Regarding the Super Cub, there aren't many airplanes that will lift the equivalent of it's basic operating weight in payload like that one will.

    The only downsides to the PA-18 as an agricultural airplane were lack of crashworthiness and lack of a "both" position on the fuel selector. Failure to "Murphy proof" the fuel selector led to many wrecks and some dead pilots. I see that somebody finally came up with an S.T.C. to fix that.
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  37. #37
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    My granpa used -11's in the 50's. Supercubs were new and a little too expensive then. But the -11 was cats meeooww compared to j3. Big safety upgrade getting those dang fuel tanks out from the front. I have slides of a few cub pile ups spraying in the 50s and 60s. All lived. None were j3's though. Mabe they were a little more cautious with them. Here is pic of my grandpas partners in the late 50s i believe.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by dryfarmer View Post
    what could they do to raise the gross wt to 1400 lbs, I see no problem with a 1400 lb gross wt, now that basic med is in effect. It simple means you could put two people in the plane and still have room for fuel.
    Wag Aero plans show 1400lbs gross weight on wheels in the specs....he must have been talking about that since the original post mentioned it was experimental.

  39. #39
    jackndiane
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    1440? What a luxury. Our [c/n 11-906] legal GW is 1220, but the plane only weighs 761 (actual) pounds with A-65, wood prop, unusable fuel, and full oil. Electrics? What's that? Diane holds the brakes and I hand prop. I'm 170 pounds, the "lovely D" is 130, 17 gallons is 103.7... That's warm-up, takeoff, climb to 1000 AGL and 3+15 cruise with a 0+30 reserve.

    In a word "perfect."
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