skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Though not as common as a PA-12, don't overlook a stock J-5. A bare bones 85 hp J-5 will match a J-3 in performance with room for long legs in the front seat.
PA12 Flight Characteristics Vs. PA18
- Thread starter Steve Pierce
- Start date
Yentnacruiser
Registered User
Anchorage, AK
I have a 180 PA-12 with Cal Centers Dynafocal mount, 84.2/43 McCauley fixed pitch, 96" three hanger flaps (that have that have PA-12 aileron nose ribs), 18 tail, battery forward, 18 3" gear and 29" Bushwheels (older set built by Joe on Fire Lake). She weighs in at 1250" and I get 110MPH indicated at 2400 RPM on 29's. Like Colorguns i carry a 25 pound tool bag that goes to the rear baggage when i'm alone, under the rear seat with one passenger and up front with two passengers. It has worked real well for me.
its the best floatplane I've had my hands on and wouldn't trade it for any 18 out there. On wheels that's another story, she does well but I've had my hands on some sweet 18's that perform very well on wheels.
I've flown a few 150 12's that had 18 gear, 18 tail, 18 flaps, Bushwheels and 82/41 prop that performed very well. Dollar for dollar that setup is tough to beat.
Scooter does very well with his 160 12 (stewartb's old 12). A very nice example!
its the best floatplane I've had my hands on and wouldn't trade it for any 18 out there. On wheels that's another story, she does well but I've had my hands on some sweet 18's that perform very well on wheels.
I've flown a few 150 12's that had 18 gear, 18 tail, 18 flaps, Bushwheels and 82/41 prop that performed very well. Dollar for dollar that setup is tough to beat.
Scooter does very well with his 160 12 (stewartb's old 12). A very nice example!
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
So do you think there was a definite benefit from the sharp nose ribs on the flaps? I've been wondering that one for a while now....
John
Scooter7779h
PATRON
Anchorage, Alaska
OK, want to chime in here. I've been hard bush flying PA-12s continuously since 1977, somewhere around 4,000 hours. Have probably less than 50 hours in an -18. The thing to keep in mind here, is that for a PA-12 to even get in the ballpark of an -18 it needs to be substantially modified. There in lies the reason you really can't answer this question. There are SO MANY differences in how people modify -12's. I have flown some really great ones, and some that where dang near dangerous or complete pooches. One of the best modifications on the -12 is the short motor mount, as it brings the empty and loaded CG back behind the forward limit which is where you will be with a long mount and a O-320. I have had two -12's: 79H which had a long mount and 53M (bought from StewartB). 3,400 hours in 79H which was long mount and 650 hours in 53M with the short mount. Both were excellent -12s with a lot of modifications, and both rebuilt in part by MCS-Mike. All of the prior discussion of trimming applies to what I saw with the long mount. I have posted before significantly, but I do not trim 53M at ALL from cruise setting to a short final of 40mph or less (all transition done with the combination and order of power reduction, flap deployment and stick pressure transitions).
Here is my read. The -12 when properly modified, and flown in a manner for -12's when flown by an experienced -12 guy will NEARLY do what an -18 will do with a good -18 pilot. The same good -12 and -12 pilot will smoke an -18 pilot who does not know how to really fly one to its potential. Just note what Greg Peppard has done at Valdez, or what I and Brian Turner have done at Skwentna STOL competitions. That said, there are things I can do with a -12 with flying legal loads that are not possible with an -18's in one trip. Examples: a complete Honda 90 3-wheeler and trailer in one trips; 75 2x4 studs (50 on lumber rack and 25 inside); 3 people and gear out of my 800' strip with 50' obstructions; etc. As said many times on this forum, it all depends on your mission and what you do 90% of the time. I would never go with an -18 as the modified -12 suits my mission. Bob Breeden can tell you that I bang around with him pretty good, and he has been suprised how a certified -12 with all of the conviences of an electrical system, good radios and such does when the -12 is built right and the pilot flying it knows how to do it. When I get in an -18 I have a big smile because to me it is SO EASY compared with the -12. You have to work at it to get it right with the -12, and the outside visibilty will never be what the -18 has because of the wing angle of incidence and wider and longer nose cowling. However, the short mount -12 approaches a widebody -18 with Thrustline for visibility.
That's my take. Its all a lot easier with an -18, and they are the full performance short field winner by a hair when driven by competent pilots. A -12 pilot will take a lot of hours to get there, an -18 pilot will get there with a lot less hours. I thank Stewart and Marty and Mike for making 53M what it is, a really solid nice -12.
Here is my read. The -12 when properly modified, and flown in a manner for -12's when flown by an experienced -12 guy will NEARLY do what an -18 will do with a good -18 pilot. The same good -12 and -12 pilot will smoke an -18 pilot who does not know how to really fly one to its potential. Just note what Greg Peppard has done at Valdez, or what I and Brian Turner have done at Skwentna STOL competitions. That said, there are things I can do with a -12 with flying legal loads that are not possible with an -18's in one trip. Examples: a complete Honda 90 3-wheeler and trailer in one trips; 75 2x4 studs (50 on lumber rack and 25 inside); 3 people and gear out of my 800' strip with 50' obstructions; etc. As said many times on this forum, it all depends on your mission and what you do 90% of the time. I would never go with an -18 as the modified -12 suits my mission. Bob Breeden can tell you that I bang around with him pretty good, and he has been suprised how a certified -12 with all of the conviences of an electrical system, good radios and such does when the -12 is built right and the pilot flying it knows how to do it. When I get in an -18 I have a big smile because to me it is SO EASY compared with the -12. You have to work at it to get it right with the -12, and the outside visibilty will never be what the -18 has because of the wing angle of incidence and wider and longer nose cowling. However, the short mount -12 approaches a widebody -18 with Thrustline for visibility.
That's my take. Its all a lot easier with an -18, and they are the full performance short field winner by a hair when driven by competent pilots. A -12 pilot will take a lot of hours to get there, an -18 pilot will get there with a lot less hours. I thank Stewart and Marty and Mike for making 53M what it is, a really solid nice -12.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
The reason I started this thread was to see what other's experiences were. I flew WhiskeyMike's 180 hp, open cowl banner tow PA12 with 3 rib bays outboard of the ailerons years ago. I was impressed with the aileron response especially with 3 rib bays outboard of the ailerons. I have been maintaining the Crosswing STOL PA12 that was on the cover of Northern Pilot magazine many years ago. 180 hp, extended wings, flaps, square tail feathers etc. It is an incredible airplane, rock solid on approach but very heavy in pitch and like other's have posted needs trim. I recently finished an annual on a 150 hp, long mount, PA18 tail feathered cub. It too was heavy in pitch and need a lot of trimming through out the take off, cruise and landing configuration. I flew Wendy' PA12 out in Utah and noticed it was heavier in pitch as well and felt heavier on the ailerons than my 18. I am not intimate with a 12 like I am with my 18 so I was curious as to other's experiences. Thanks for the insight, I like the feel of my 18 but see the advantages of the right 12 as well.
jnorris
MEMBER
Wisconsin
Amen to that! My first Cub was a stock J5, and it was by far the sweetest flying rag-wing Piper I have ever flown, bar none! It flew SO nicely, and was a ton of fun on skis too. It did have a C-90 in place of the original A-75, which made it perform a bit better, but that didn't change the handling characteristics at all. It was a real sweetheart. And LOTS of room inside too. The front seat was fit for a king, with great visibility and no lack of room. The only downside of that airplane was only one 17 gallon fuel tank, and no electrics. None of that was a problem when I kept it on the farm strip, but I do like the extra fuel and full electrics in my Super Cub now that I'm based here at Oshkosh. But for pure flying enjoyment you can't beat a J5!
Yentnacruiser
Registered User
Anchorage, AK
John
I can't tell you if it works better than 18 flaps. But having the same false spars and hangers the entire length of the wing helped the recover go smoother and I think better looking. Also with the sharper nose ribs there is minimal gap at all flap settings so there isn't the need for the sheet metal gap seal which makes a much cleaner installation.
Steve
I can't tell you if it works better than 18 flaps. But having the same false spars and hangers the entire length of the wing helped the recover go smoother and I think better looking. Also with the sharper nose ribs there is minimal gap at all flap settings so there isn't the need for the sheet metal gap seal which makes a much cleaner installation.
Steve
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
The stock flap shape opens up a gap between the wing and the flap which is making a slot similar to the wing leading edge slats which are popular now. This flap slot accelerates air over the top of the flap in all positions except up, increasing the lift from the flap when they are deflected. This is a good thing. On the surface I believe that you are losing lift by keeping the gap closed.
Steve: Great Question!
I just finished rebuilding a 12 this summer, and while I only have 55 hours on it or so, it is interesting how it flys a bit different than my other 12 that I have 2000 hours in, Specs:
12B: long mount, 0-320, heavy oil cooler and generator, odyssey battery in original location, original gear, 18 tail feathers, flaps with gap seals, vg's, 4# of lead in the tail, 1237#
12M: long mount 0-320, l/w oil cooler and alternator, odyssey battery under rear seat, 18 gear and tail feathers, Gross weight increase, flaps, no gap seals,18 style elevator cable routing. 1249#.
I have also flow 2 other 12's
12H: short mount 0-360, 18 gear and tail, rear gill battery, square wings regular length ailerons, 1300#
12X: long mount 0-320, 18 gear and tail, rear gill, square wings-regular length ailerons, 1250#
general observations:
*The extended square wings have a definite and discernible adverse impact on roll rate. Very slow compared to round wings, I don't want them on a plane I own.
*The 180HP adds lots of nose heavy, in a scary way. I agree with Colorguns- 50# of ballast in the baggage compartment is what it took to make it fly like a nice flying 12 with a long mounted 0-320.
*12B takes trim but not excessive, on very short final I do have it trimmed all the way nose up.
*12M takes less trim, just a couple of cranks for landing, feels nose light (I think its the diet oil cooler and alternator-and maybe the weight of the gross weight increase tubes in the rear), but does have a noticeably larger pitch change when flaps are changed (maybe this is the lack of gap seal) Definitely no need for lead in its tail.
*Both 12B and 12M take two trim cranks nose down when adding a pax.
*12M has a definitely heavier pitch feel to it than 12B, I think its the 18 elevator cable routing that makes it feel heavier-I wouldn't do that again.
*Aileron feel is easily affected by aileron cable tightness, one too many cranks on the turnbuckle and it seems to get stiffer.
*All of these 12's feel 'slipperier' than 18's on slowing them down on final, but once you figure that out you are golden.
doug
I just finished rebuilding a 12 this summer, and while I only have 55 hours on it or so, it is interesting how it flys a bit different than my other 12 that I have 2000 hours in, Specs:
12B: long mount, 0-320, heavy oil cooler and generator, odyssey battery in original location, original gear, 18 tail feathers, flaps with gap seals, vg's, 4# of lead in the tail, 1237#
12M: long mount 0-320, l/w oil cooler and alternator, odyssey battery under rear seat, 18 gear and tail feathers, Gross weight increase, flaps, no gap seals,18 style elevator cable routing. 1249#.
I have also flow 2 other 12's
12H: short mount 0-360, 18 gear and tail, rear gill battery, square wings regular length ailerons, 1300#
12X: long mount 0-320, 18 gear and tail, rear gill, square wings-regular length ailerons, 1250#
general observations:
*The extended square wings have a definite and discernible adverse impact on roll rate. Very slow compared to round wings, I don't want them on a plane I own.
*The 180HP adds lots of nose heavy, in a scary way. I agree with Colorguns- 50# of ballast in the baggage compartment is what it took to make it fly like a nice flying 12 with a long mounted 0-320.
*12B takes trim but not excessive, on very short final I do have it trimmed all the way nose up.
*12M takes less trim, just a couple of cranks for landing, feels nose light (I think its the diet oil cooler and alternator-and maybe the weight of the gross weight increase tubes in the rear), but does have a noticeably larger pitch change when flaps are changed (maybe this is the lack of gap seal) Definitely no need for lead in its tail.
*Both 12B and 12M take two trim cranks nose down when adding a pax.
*12M has a definitely heavier pitch feel to it than 12B, I think its the 18 elevator cable routing that makes it feel heavier-I wouldn't do that again.
*Aileron feel is easily affected by aileron cable tightness, one too many cranks on the turnbuckle and it seems to get stiffer.
*All of these 12's feel 'slipperier' than 18's on slowing them down on final, but once you figure that out you are golden.
doug
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
So is the Kenmore STC the long mount or the short mount?
John
John
Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
Long
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Then there's that 1A200 prop with a spacer on the bow of some 180 ships that weighs close to 50# as I recall.
Gary
Gary
skukum12
MEMBER
The Last Frontier
Scooter absolutely nailed it in post #34. He is exactly right when be says he smiles when he gets in a Cub, me too. After flying a bunch in a 12, the same pilot can strap on an 18, leave the entire panel behind and fly it by feel. I sure would like to put my hand to 53M with that short mount!
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Do you mean gap seal or gap fairing? A gap seal will cause the flap to lose some lift at large deflections along with disturbed air flowing over the tail. A gap fairing will provide a slot between the wing and flap which accelerates the air over the deflected flap maintaining it's lift at lower speeds and smoothing the air flow. The lack of a gap fairing will generate disturbed air in this area allowing the flap to operate in disturbed air and generating more disturbed air flow over the tail.
gap seal bad.
gap fairing good.
53M is a great airplane and yes, Scooter flies it well. I can add that it was especially good on EDO 2000s. That plane just about flew itself. Solo or with a full size passenger in the back seat, it was fun, fun, fun on floats.
Paul Heinrich
PARTNER
Illinois & Wisconsin
It uses the original long mount, but beefed up.
Scooter7779h
PATRON
Anchorage, Alaska
If your in Alaska give me a PM and we can go for a flight.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
skywagon8a;703454 [B said:
Pictures of each?
John
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Here is the drawing for the STC. Note that they show the stock airbox but the O-320 uses a carburetor with an accelerator pump and they tell you verbally to use a PA18 square carb airbox. I modified the PA12 airbox to clear the accelerator pump.
Attachments
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
No pictures just wondering what the thought process is in calling the trailing edge parts gap seals. Or has someone actually sealed the flap gap?
I called it what Dakota Cub called it, here's what I was talking about.....So what do you call it?
http://dakotacub.com/index.php?option=com_gescart&Itemid=30&task=product_details&display_id=235
http://dakotacub.com/index.php?option=com_gescart&Itemid=30&task=product_details&display_id=235
I just called it what Dakota Cub called it, here it is,,, so what is it really?
http://dakotacub.com/index.php?option=com_gescart&Itemid=30&task=product_details&display_id=235
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
That explains it. Piper part no. 12795-00 and 12795-01 are called Fairing-flap LH and RH. This from the PA-18 Piper parts catalog. Dakota Cub has mislabeled it. It only closes the gap when the flaps are up.
TurboBeaver
Registered User
Northern Maine
Interesting when the thread ended no one chimed in on the actual merits of a Catto prop on a standard long mount that is always way forward CG when coupled with
A Borer prop? Removing 17/18 lbs out on the end of the crankshaft will certainly change the age old empty CG curse?? One should also keep in mind that lots of times
When folks are expounding the merits of 18 vs 12s they are commonly comparing 1250/1300 lb 12s to 1100lb 18s. A light 12 that is" rigged up the same" as the 18; should be just the difference of the AOI of the two wings
All things equal?? However the old saying "only thing that
Will beat a cub; is another cub" : Will always be true. But when you think your Cub is a hotrod try it against Greg Peppards 12 some day! LoL
E
A Borer prop? Removing 17/18 lbs out on the end of the crankshaft will certainly change the age old empty CG curse?? One should also keep in mind that lots of times
When folks are expounding the merits of 18 vs 12s they are commonly comparing 1250/1300 lb 12s to 1100lb 18s. A light 12 that is" rigged up the same" as the 18; should be just the difference of the AOI of the two wings
All things equal?? However the old saying "only thing that
Will beat a cub; is another cub" : Will always be true. But when you think your Cub is a hotrod try it against Greg Peppards 12 some day! LoL
E
AKCRUISER
Registered User
AK
Seaworthy
FOUNDER
Massachusetts
I have a 12--- O-320 (Kenmore) with a tad more than 150 HP. Sensenich 76-56 prop. VG's. I keep it clean . 26" Goodyears. The plane will fly at 115 MPH without the throttle at the stops. The consequence of VG's cause the nose to drop a few degrees below the horizon and shortly thereafter the nose rises again. There is no hard breaking stall. Trim is such a constant factor that I never even notice it--- just something that is done-- or your right arm gets a lot of exercise. I've noticed that no one has addressed sink rate and something that I have always been acutely aware of in this plane. Pull the power off and she comes down---fast. 500 ft/ min is SOP and if you are not paying attention to altitude/ airspeed/ power setting--you could get yourself in a real jamb. It will run out of elevator if AOA/ IAS/ sink rate are not paid attention to. I consider this plane remarkably adept to short field because of the propensity to a vertical glide path. Just doesn't want to glide. I have periodically flown an 18 with an O-320--particularly on very windy days. ( crosswinds) The difference between 18 aileron throw and 12 aileron throw is so remarkable I feel uncomfortable flying the 18 with significant crosswind as the aileron hits the stop when I am expecting more throw. This particular 18 has "Dixie cup" wheels and most if not all of the other folks have never flown a 12 or 18 with big tires and are unaware how much simpler it is to land with the larger tires--- even 8.5X6. Have had my 12 for 13 years and been around a bit with it. Lots of room for "stuff". Has the AK baggage STC and I have slept in the plane many a rainy night---
cubdriver2
FRIEND
