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Thread: PA12 Flight Characteristics Vs. PA18

  1. #41
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Long mount. Either a stocker with scarfed-in doublers or a new one of heavier tubing.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  2. #42
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtailjohn View Post
    So is the Kenmore STC the long mount or the short mount?
    John
    Long
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  3. #43
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Then there's that 1A200 prop with a spacer on the bow of some 180 ships that weighs close to 50# as I recall.

    Gary

  4. #44
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    Scooter absolutely nailed it in post #34. He is exactly right when be says he smiles when he gets in a Cub, me too. After flying a bunch in a 12, the same pilot can strap on an 18, leave the entire panel behind and fly it by feel. I sure would like to put my hand to 53M with that short mount!
    "Always looking up"
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  5. #45
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    .... but does have a noticeably larger pitch change when flaps are changed (maybe this is the lack of gap seal) Definitely no need for lead in its tail.
    Do you mean gap seal or gap fairing? A gap seal will cause the flap to lose some lift at large deflections along with disturbed air flowing over the tail. A gap fairing will provide a slot between the wing and flap which accelerates the air over the deflected flap maintaining it's lift at lower speeds and smoothing the air flow. The lack of a gap fairing will generate disturbed air in this area allowing the flap to operate in disturbed air and generating more disturbed air flow over the tail.
    gap seal bad.
    gap fairing good.
    N1PA
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by skukum12 View Post
    Scooter absolutely nailed it in post #34. He is exactly right when be says he smiles when he gets in a Cub, me too. After flying a bunch in a 12, the same pilot can strap on an 18, leave the entire panel behind and fly it by feel. I sure would like to put my hand to 53M with that short mount!
    53M is a great airplane and yes, Scooter flies it well. I can add that it was especially good on EDO 2000s. That plane just about flew itself. Solo or with a full size passenger in the back seat, it was fun, fun, fun on floats.
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtailjohn View Post
    So is the Kenmore STC the long mount or the short mount?
    John
    It uses the original long mount, but beefed up.
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  8. #48
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skukum12 View Post
    Scooter absolutely nailed it in post #34. He is exactly right when be says he smiles when he gets in a Cub, me too. After flying a bunch in a 12, the same pilot can strap on an 18, leave the entire panel behind and fly it by feel. I sure would like to put my hand to 53M with that short mount!
    If your in Alaska give me a PM and we can go for a flight.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    =========
    PA-12 fan

  9. #49
    Hardtailjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a;703454
    [B
    gap seal[/B] bad.
    gap fairing good.
    Pictures of each?
    John

  10. #50
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Stock mount prior to welding split tubes over the two lower legs per the Kenmore 150 hp STC.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Two split tubes welded on.
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    Close up of the welded over split tube.
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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  11. #51
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Here is the drawing for the STC. Note that they show the stock airbox but the O-320 uses a carburetor with an accelerator pump and they tell you verbally to use a PA18 square carb airbox. I modified the PA12 airbox to clear the accelerator pump.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Steve Pierce; 12-15-2017 at 05:08 PM.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  12. #52
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtailjohn View Post
    Pictures of each?
    John
    No pictures just wondering what the thought process is in calling the trailing edge parts gap seals. Or has someone actually sealed the flap gap?
    N1PA

  13. #53

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    I called it what Dakota Cub called it, here's what I was talking about.....So what do you call it?

    http://dakotacub.com/index.php?optio...display_id=235
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Do you mean gap seal or gap fairing? A gap seal will cause the flap to lose some lift at large deflections along with disturbed air flowing over the tail. A gap fairing will provide a slot between the wing and flap which accelerates the air over the deflected flap maintaining it's lift at lower speeds and smoothing the air flow. The lack of a gap fairing will generate disturbed air in this area allowing the flap to operate in disturbed air and generating more disturbed air flow over the tail.
    gap seal bad.
    gap fairing good.
    I just called it what Dakota Cub called it, here it is,,, so what is it really?
    http://dakotacub.com/index.php?optio...display_id=235
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.

  15. #55
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    I just called it what Dakota Cub called it, here it is,,, so what is it really?
    http://dakotacub.com/index.php?optio...display_id=235
    That explains it. Piper part no. 12795-00 and 12795-01 are called Fairing-flap LH and RH. This from the PA-18 Piper parts catalog. Dakota Cub has mislabeled it. It only closes the gap when the flaps are up.
    N1PA
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  16. #56
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Interesting when the thread ended no one chimed in on the actual merits of a Catto prop on a standard long mount that is always way forward CG when coupled with
    A Borer prop? Removing 17/18 lbs out on the end of the crankshaft will certainly change the age old empty CG curse?? One should also keep in mind that lots of times
    When folks are expounding the merits of 18 vs 12s they are commonly comparing 1250/1300 lb 12s to 1100lb 18s. A light 12 that is" rigged up the same" as the 18; should be just the difference of the AOI of the two wings
    All things equal?? However the old saying "only thing that
    Will beat a cub; is another cub" : Will always be true. But when you think your Cub is a hotrod try it against Greg Peppards 12 some day! LoL

    E
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  17. #57
    AKCRUISER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Interesting when the thread ended no one chimed in on the actual merits of a Catto prop on a standard long mount that is always way forward CG when coupled with
    A Borer prop? Removing 17/18 lbs out on the end of the crankshaft will certainly change the age old empty CG curse?? One should also keep in mind that lots of times
    When folks are expounding the merits of 18 vs 12s they are commonly comparing 1250/1300 lb 12s to 1100lb 18s. A light 12 that is" rigged up the same" as the 18; should be just the difference of the AOI of the two wings
    All things equal?? However the old saying "only thing that
    Will beat a cub; is another cub" : Will always be true. But when you think your Cub is a hotrod try it against Greg Peppards 12 some day! LoL

    E
    + 1 for Catto on a 12 w/long engine mount.


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  18. #58

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    or...since Catto's aren't approved for certified aircraft, put on a light weight Niagara oil cooler and a Skytec Lightweight starter and save around 12-15# as I recall also at the tip of the arm scale, and even at $100/# its cheaper than a new prop
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.
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  19. #59
    Seaworthy's Avatar
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    I have a 12--- O-320 (Kenmore) with a tad more than 150 HP. Sensenich 76-56 prop. VG's. I keep it clean . 26" Goodyears. The plane will fly at 115 MPH without the throttle at the stops. The consequence of VG's cause the nose to drop a few degrees below the horizon and shortly thereafter the nose rises again. There is no hard breaking stall. Trim is such a constant factor that I never even notice it--- just something that is done-- or your right arm gets a lot of exercise. I've noticed that no one has addressed sink rate and something that I have always been acutely aware of in this plane. Pull the power off and she comes down---fast. 500 ft/ min is SOP and if you are not paying attention to altitude/ airspeed/ power setting--you could get yourself in a real jamb. It will run out of elevator if AOA/ IAS/ sink rate are not paid attention to. I consider this plane remarkably adept to short field because of the propensity to a vertical glide path. Just doesn't want to glide. I have periodically flown an 18 with an O-320--particularly on very windy days. ( crosswinds) The difference between 18 aileron throw and 12 aileron throw is so remarkable I feel uncomfortable flying the 18 with significant crosswind as the aileron hits the stop when I am expecting more throw. This particular 18 has "Dixie cup" wheels and most if not all of the other folks have never flown a 12 or 18 with big tires and are unaware how much simpler it is to land with the larger tires--- even 8.5X6. Have had my 12 for 13 years and been around a bit with it. Lots of room for "stuff". Has the AK baggage STC and I have slept in the plane many a rainy night---
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
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  20. #60
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaworthy View Post
    I have a 12--- O-320 (Kenmore) with a tad more than 150 HP. Sensenich 76-56 prop. VG's. I keep it clean . 26" Goodyears. The plane will fly at 115 MPH without the throttle at the stops. The consequence of VG's cause the nose to drop a few degrees below the horizon and shortly thereafter the nose rises again. There is no hard breaking stall. Trim is such a constant factor that I never even notice it--- just something that is done-- or your right arm gets a lot of exercise. I've noticed that no one has addressed sink rate and something that I have always been acutely aware of in this plane. Pull the power off and she comes down---fast. 500 ft/ min is SOP and if you are not paying attention to altitude/ airspeed/ power setting--you could get yourself in a real jamb. It will run out of elevator if AOA/ IAS/ sink rate are not paid attention to. I consider this plane remarkably adept to short field because of the propensity to a vertical glide path. Just doesn't want to glide. I have periodically flown an 18 with an O-320--particularly on very windy days. ( crosswinds) The difference between 18 aileron throw and 12 aileron throw is so remarkable I feel uncomfortable flying the 18 with significant crosswind as the aileron hits the stop when I am expecting more throw. This particular 18 has "Dixie cup" wheels and most if not all of the other folks have never flown a 12 or 18 with big tires and are unaware how much simpler it is to land with the larger tires--- even 8.5X6. Have had my 12 for 13 years and been around a bit with it. Lots of room for "stuff". Has the AK baggage STC and I have slept in the plane many a rainy night---
    I notice that 12 owners are a tad grumpier then 18 owners

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  21. #61
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I notice that 12 owners are a tad grumpier then 18 owners

    Glenn
    Ooooo at the risk of hyjacking this thread. As the most consummate identifiable “Crotchety Old Fart” that I’m known to be by folk that know me. I have to take issue with the statement above. It’s been my experience here that that applies to more than just the 12 owners .
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  22. #62
    Seaworthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrite View Post
    Ooooo at the risk of hyjacking this thread. As the most consummate identifiable “Crotchety Old Fart” that I’m known to be by folk that know me. I have to take issue with the statement above. It’s been my experience here that that applies to more than just the 12 owners .
    There is no right side of the bed with Glenn--- that said---when I was thirty I was known as the "angry young man". Glenn is my hero of grumpy old guys.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
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  23. #63
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    When I was a young A&P I always wondered why all the Old mechanics were so Grumpy, I now know. Grumpy old pilots don't hold a candle to Grumpy Old Mechanics.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve pierce View Post
    when i was a young a&p i always wondered why all the old mechanics were so grumpy, i now know. Grumpy old pilots don't hold a candle to grumpy old mechanics.
    dilligaf
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  25. #65
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    dilligaf
    Exactly
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  26. #66

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    The correct spelling is dilligaff

  27. #67
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  28. #68

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    I became familiar with that term while serving in the U.S. Submarine Service. There the first 'F' stands for "Flying".

  29. #69
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Again at the risk of side tracking this thread. In my experience, when you combine a crotchety Ol mechanic with a pilots license you have now created a soul that thinks everyone is entitled to their opinion. Practical examples of that have happened to me many times. The most recent was when I stopped at a little field for gas a state over from me. I get out of my weird little bird and was just walking around checking things out when up walks this guy who had an Ag operation. He takes in the view of me and my plane and proceedes to tell me why all the sh*t I have won’t work.
    Not knowing me from Adam, this guy dissed on everything bout my little mount. I let him ramble without one interruption from the time he walked up to when he felt he’d bout covered it all. He stood waiting for my response, After I looked at the lady who came out to pump my gas and realized he was someone who had been allowed to much chain to run on , I proceeded to explain DILLIGAFF to him in a very animated way .
    Evidently , he understood the definition. He had no other questions or statements after that .
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  30. #70
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrite View Post
    Again at the risk of side tracking this thread. In my experience, when you combine a crotchety Ol mechanic with a pilots license you have now created a soul that thinks everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    Not sure what being a mechanic with a pilot's license has to do with anything but I am entitled to my own opinion regardless. Whether or not I voice my opinion with my inside voice or my outside voice is up to me but in a lot of instances some things are better left unsaid. A lot of people probably think my Super Cub is a POS and that is their opinion and don't GAF unless they want to pay for it.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  31. #71
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Not aiming nothing Steve . Just expanding on life experience. Not sure of your age, I’m pushing the big 6 oh. And have to remind myself sometimes....smart as I think I am....some just think I’m a smart** .
    In my experience, Some of my geriatric Brethren haven’t learned that.
    Your tag line from Mr Rogers sums it up well!
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  32. #72
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    KEVIN BLOODY WILSON D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.


  33. #73
    Seaworthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    When I was a young A&P I always wondered why all the Old mechanics were so Grumpy, I now know. Grumpy old pilots don't hold a candle to Grumpy Old Mechanics.
    Steve---wait til you hit 70. At that point you can say pretty much anything to anyone and not care. My assessment of Donald trump is not that he is intemperate, thoughtless, senile, or slipping his gears-- he's simply over 70 and he doesn't give a F***k what he says and who he is saying it to. It's an age thing.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  34. #74
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaworthy View Post
    Steve---wait til you hit 70. At that point you can say pretty much anything to anyone and not care. My assessment of Donald trump is not that he is intemperate, thoughtless, senile, or slipping his gears-- he's simply over 70 and he doesn't give a F***k what he says and who he is saying it to. It's an age thing.
    But............ you've had this attitude for the last 50 years?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  35. #75
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    They say a -12 with a -360 is nose heavy. yes till you add the weight in the extended baggage and possibly the tail or just a 150-200# passenger in the back seat. OR, Could be fixed with a Cato or Sensenich wood prop, thus loosing about 60-70# out of the plane to have it fly the same. It will go from cruise to landing with no trim adjust as you will need to hold the stick back a little till first notch flaps 75MPH then as you slow and add more flaps you just land it NO trim needed.

    Doug

  36. #76

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    They say an -18 with a 360 is nose heavy. The two approved 0-360 installations I know of for a -12 use short mounts to correct the CG. A few exp -18 builders have shortened their mounts to counter added weight from big engines, too.

    FWIW, my old short mount 160hp -12 flew better with a passenger or aft cargo load, too.
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  37. #77
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    They say a -12 with a -360 is nose heavy. yes till you add the weight in the extended baggage and possibly the tail or just a 150-200# passenger in the back seat. OR, Could be fixed with a Cato or Sensenich wood prop, thus loosing about 60-70# out of the plane to have it fly the same. It will go from cruise to landing with no trim adjust as you will need to hold the stick back a little till first notch flaps 75MPH then as you slow and add more flaps you just land it NO trim needed.

    Doug
    Your numbers are just a tad optimistic Doug. Going from a Mac/Borer to a Catto on a 360 is going to save about 22 lbs. I wouldn't bother with the Sensenich wood prop. The efficiency isn't all that good.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  38. #78
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    [QUOTE=PerryB;725253]Your numbers are just a tad optimistic Doug. Going from a Mac/Borer to a Catto on a 360 is going to save about 22 lbs. I wouldn't bother with the Sensenich wood prop. The efficiency isn't all that good.[/QUOTE


    Yes you are right about numbers, but this is what I find.

    Yep 22# off the nose
    6# weight in the tail
    about 15# in a battery can go to a dry cell battery
    about 40# out of the extended baggage
    This gets the same EWCG to fly the same

    That's the numbers I get with a change in prop.

    EWCG is at 13.6 with EW 1310# add the extra weight in the extended baggage and the CG goes back to 15.6 and this really makes a difference in flight characteristics.
    AT the EWCG it is nose heavy and will not flair out well add the weight in the extended baggage or a 150# person in the back seat and now flies great.

    Doug

  39. #79
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    One should not forget that the Cruiser CG issue is directly
    Related to the fact it is a 3 place certified aircraft. An 18 is not. In Alaska we flew 18's with the guides in the baggage and client In rear seat for years; and it was very hard on the tail, and always turns into a much longer distance to get the tail up, with all that weight that far aft in the 18. Leaving it down was certain to shear off Pawnee springs as fast as you could bolt them on. When I got my first 12 that same load, was MUCH easier to fly; with the other body up under the wing. The Cruiser tail comes up twice as fast as an 18 will, with a 180lb person in the baggage. ( spare me the legal baggage limits). So for us, and that mission: 'hauling 2 guys out in one trip'
    The 12's had a huge advantage, in real ruff stuff hauling two passengers in one trip . So we often had to make 2 trips with the 18's , so you wound up using a ton of extra fuel.... Wasting alot of extra time.

    As far as aileron response comparisions? there really isnt any. The Cruiser has it all over the 18's. The only one that would argue that; is if they never flew a Cruiser? or was smokin Crack?????
    The CG on an 18 is at an advantage right out of the gate, when hauling one person.
    12's will benifit alot more from lightweight starters, alternators, Odessey batterys etc. Catto props and short mounts are big items. But no doubt the correct CG: is always going to be the root of the mystery: when you fly a Cruiser and she lands slower; And gets off better: Than any you have ever flown before? Of course a 1075 lb 12; is a different animal than a 1350lb one too! If your experimental; simply moving your battery back down the fuselage until you get the correct CG, is way ahead of hauling lead around to achieve the same thing???
    And as "old Supercrow" has always maintained...." Nothing is as important as a correct CG"
    And he has a whole wall full of trophys; for TO contests he has won at Greenville over the last 40 years.
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 08-27-2018 at 04:47 AM.
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