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Thread: Locking Tailwheel

  1. #1
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Locking Tailwheel

    Do any of you Skywagon drivers use one or have it installed?

    Opinions?
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  2. #2
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Never specifically on a Skywagon, by my personal opinion is they're great on a pavement pounder but not so much for an off-airport machine. Is this a modification to a Scott or a free swivel you're talking about. The one I have experience with was a free swivel tied to the elevators. Hard forward stick unlocked the TW.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  3. #3
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Plane will get a mix of pavement and no pavement. I have zero experience with locking tailwheels.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Do any of you Skywagon drivers use one or have it installed?

    Opinions?
    Don’t have one, some love-some hate ‘em
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  5. #5
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Don’t have one, some love-some hate ‘em
    Pros??

    Cons??
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  6. #6
    180Marty's Avatar
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    I've made a long taxi in a cross wind that it seems a locking tail wheel would have been nice. I think I remember my Dad's Thrush spray plane had a lock when the stick was back------must have been a reason with all that power and it had Studebaker brake cylinders.

  7. #7

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    After a LONG cross-wind taxi I started looking for the parts and determined they were made out of unobtanium!
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  8. #8
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I’ve flown two 185s with locking tailwheels. Most of our planes had them removed, and I never really felt that was a big deal either way.

    As others have noted, a long taxi in big crosswind will make one a believer, but at least in my experience that doesn’t happen too often. They can help a little in a crosswind landing/takeoff, though they’re certainly not “required” in that realm. All in all, if I had a Plane so equipped, I wouldn’t remove it, but I also wouldn’t add one to an airplane like a 180/185.

    They are most helpful/required on some larger aircraft that have no tailwheel steering.

    MTV
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    PerryB's Avatar
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    The one I operated was on an Air Tractor and it was very well suited in that application. It was a simple free-swivel with a pin that dropped through a plate, and released by pushing the stick through the forward stop/detent. It was idiot proof in that regard, you couldn't forget to lock it. The big pro in that application was it being basically indestructible. Rough strips had no ill effect on it. The other obvious pro is that it's like having training wheels. We also has an Ag-Truck with a conventional Scott (3400?) and it routinely got the crap beat out of it and would (pick one) seize, fail to lock or stick at some indeterminate position, which could really get your attention at touchdown if you weren't ready for it. My perceived con for the locker would be in an off airport environment where you need to quickly swerve around something during takeoff or landing and the TW is locked. I can't give you first hand experience with what you're looking for, but I FEEL like if I had a Wagon, I'd want a well maintained Scott without a lock.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  10. #10

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    If you have a tail wheel ski and land on pavement, you will want a lock.
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  11. #11

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    My plane had one but it was disabled when I bought the plane. I've replaced the tailwheel a couple of times since with XP and ABW tailwheels that don't support locks. I've never wanted for a lock, even with my old 14" XP tailwheel. I've heard some guys say they like them to control shimmy with big tailwheels and tail skis. I'm at about year 20 with big tailwheels and Magnum tail skis and haven't had many shimmy events, and the ones I've had were due to higher than normal landing speeds on pavement. I don't use pavement very often and don't taxi very far so factor that into my pirep.
    Last edited by stewartb; 12-07-2017 at 11:17 AM.

  12. #12
    tedwaltman1's Avatar
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    Alaska Bushwheels say they do not support a locking TW addition, but in fact they DO. Their fork is machined for the required recessed screw holes. I added the Cessna 180/185 locking parts (available from Yingling Aviation or your local salvage yard) to my Murphy Moose using the ABI-3450-T01 tailwheel.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks 180Marty, Eddie Foy, S2D thanked for this post

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Land in icy Kotzebue heavy on retracted wheel skis a few times with a stiff 90* crosswind, blow a tire twice from tailwheel shimmy, and you'll soon find out what that tailwheel lock down by the tunnel is for. I used it often taxiing on ice or taking off in a crosswind until the tail came up. Again heavy and again with a Federal tail wheel/ski. Can't say it was needed if counter braking to control direction was effective.

    Gary

  14. #14
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    first thing we'd remove when we got another 185 was that locking stuff if it was installed

  15. #15
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    first thing we'd remove when we got another 185 was that locking stuff if it was installed
    Did they later become a maintenance or operator problem?

    But then I've been told of some Part 135 ops in SE removing panel gyros (AH/DG) so the pilots wouldn't be tempted to use them.

    Gary

  16. #16
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Did they later become a maintenance or operator problem?

    Gary
    no idea, My stepfather always had them removed.. not needed, extra weight

  17. #17
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    My 185 has one. It is very useful when taxing in strong or gusty crosswinds on pavement. As I recall they were standard equipment on 185s can't remember on the 180s yet my 180s both had them.

    I've flown a few different types of multi-engine airplane which had castering tail wheels with locks. The locks were mandatory on those planes.
    N1PA

  18. #18
    algonquin's Avatar
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    The locking tail wheel , to the best of my knowledge, is a McCaulley not a Scott. I see above where someone has one set up on a Moose, not sure about that set up.
    The 180 with a non-sea plane vert. Fin doesn't need one, as the weathervane isn't that bad. All the 185's came as sea planes W/ large vert. Stab. and in a strong X-Wind with a long taxi you end up heating the brakes up keeping yourself straight ( not to mention tired leg,lol) it would be nice At Homer the wind gets cranking and I would like a lock but don't have one and really no big deal.
    Landing a Sky Wagon in X-Winds is is usually done as a wheel landing, way better control, so the lock is a non issue.
    Operating out of places like Kot's in the winter is just flat hard work and I can't comment on the needs up there except dress very warm!

  19. #19

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    If your tailwheel shimmies, a lock will help immensely. Never flew a 180 with a lock, so I decided to leave a 185 unlocked, and it shimmied badly. Lock fixed that.

    My UPF-7 checkout consisted of telephone advice. Everybody said " never make the mistake of landing with the tailwheel unlocked." I never did. After a year or so of semi successful flight, we converted it to Cessna 310 brakes at Roy Redmond's suggestion and that change converted it to a docile Super Cub-like taildragger.

  20. #20
    mvivion's Avatar
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    If your tailwheel shimmies, get it fixed! And I don’t mean by locking the tailwheel.....that’s a bandaid. A properly set up tailwheel should not shimmy. As others have noted, adding a tailski and operating on pavement is the one exception to that. It’s hard to prevent tailwheel shimmy with a tailski without a lock.

    But, if a tailwheel shimmies, fix it! That violent oscillation can do some damage.

    MTV

  21. #21
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    If your tailwheel shimmies, get it fixed!
    MTV
    first cheap thing to try is new tire... some get a pattern worn in them that sets up a bad shimmy...

    also tail heavy loads will shimmy so bad they rip out the tailwheel stirring cables on asphalt ....

  22. #22
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Lots of different experiences and scenarios here so possible for every plus or minus when it comes to tales of locking tail wheels. My problem prone use was on icy winter runways or slick ice covered lakes and rivers in crosswinds on AWB 3600 wheel skis and their tail wheel penetration ski. Taxiing without sliding a tire too much or lighting fires with the downwind brake. Trying to steer around stumps and logs with skis down and not spin like an overturned beetle in the wind. That short but tricky transition stage between tail contact at liftoff and at landing maintaining directional control when on the pavement or ice.

    Then various loads...heavy in the tail...with some ice on top of the tail ski or maybe as MTV suggests a part in need of an adjustment. I recall some pre-load set screws on top of the McCauley unit that were painted an interesting slip paint color but beyond my skill set as to what to do with them. Might have been better to have someone who knew look it up in the C-185 Service lit and do some turning torque testing.

    Training in those days was by self...and self eventually learned to use the lock in certain circumstances. Today we have this knowledge base and sharing options for figuring the ops out.

    Gary

  23. #23
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I was told this pilot forgot to lock the tailwheel on his Bearcat and it was seen swiveling around. Eddie, you need all the help you can get.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  24. #24
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Yo mama!





    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I was told this pilot forgot to lock the tailwheel on his Bearcat and it was seen swiveling around. Eddie, you need all the help you can get.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  25. #25
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Bearcats, DC3's, etc may need locking tailwheels.
    I've never felt the need for one on my C180, but I don't usually fly in extreme conditions.
    IMHO Tom Anderson is THE landing gear authority for skywagons, here's links to a couple pages on his website.

    http://thelandinggearworks.com/tailw...ck-information

    http://thelandinggearworks.com/tailw...locking-system
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  26. #26

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    I agree that a shimmying tail wheel needs to be fixed promptly. If you need to go somewhere to fix it and have a locking mechanism, use the locking mechanism.

    Reports that nothing would stop the shimmying of that giant tailwheel on a local Super Cub used mostly on pavement caused me to recommend a locking mechanism. It has since been replaced with the good old 3200.

  27. #27
    C130jake's Avatar
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    Anyone here use this locking tail wheel?
    http://www.tundratailwheel.com



    Sent from my SM-G930V using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  28. #28

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    Skywagon Locking Tailwheel

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    After a LONG cross-wind taxi I started looking for the parts and determined they were made out of unobtanium!
    www.thelandinggearworks.com

    Tom Anderson at The Landing Gear Works has the parts/kits for locking tailwheel.

  29. #29

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    neglect will make you unhappy whichever choice you make.

  30. #30
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedwaltman1 View Post
    Alaska Bushwheels say they do not support a locking TW addition, but in fact they DO. Their fork is machined for the required recessed screw holes. I added the Cessna 180/185 locking parts (available from Yingling Aviation or your local salvage yard) to my Murphy Moose using the ABI-3450-T01 tailwheel.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Nice to know they finally started doing it. that appears to be the tundra tire version. wonder if they are doing it to the regular ones
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  31. #31
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    Eddie, Many of the guys above have WAY more experience than me but I'll share what I've experienced and some of what they haven't covered.

    My 185 has the factory float kit which includes some pretty heavy springs on the rudder, heaviest I've ever felt. The larger 185 dorsal and heavy springs contribute to the leg fatigue mentioned earlier, the lock definitely helps but has limitations on where and how. The rudder is near the same sq/in as the cub with near double the HP and only a little more arm, (length of fuselage), add in the torque and p factor and things start to pile up against your will to travel in a straight line. It's not uncommon at the beginning of a short field T/O to end up with the rudder on the floor for a couple of seconds with only a slight x-wnd, might even include a tap of the downwind brake if gusty. Take offs aren't the real problem because the prop slipstream energizes the rudder. Landings are where things get interesting.

    It's not that it runs out of rudder prior to touch down, it's when the tail begins to settle during roll out that is the danger zone. I don't know if it's simply the lack of airspeed, or that the rudder comes out of the clean air as some suggest, but its not until that moment that you'll know if you're asking too much of the airplane and the lock isn't any help until the tail is down with some weight on it. Be ready for the go around!

    The only con I can think of comes down to my own stupidity. Once I left the t/w locked while trying to exit the runway and pushed the tire off the rim cutting the tube, the tire pressure was around 40psi and she was heavy. I now run nearer 70 psi and pay a lot more attention to it during pre-flight. Pierce's recommendation of the 6 ply tire was a huge help, and I also carry a spare.

    I've intentionally sought the x-wnd limits in both airplanes many times. My experience has been that the cub deals with x-wnd better because rudder is much more responsive. By comparison the 185 rudder feels sorta like pedaling a bicycle under water, not only is it much heavier but big inputs don't have as much effect.

    Now for the YMMV disclaimer: 78 A185F, factory float kit, IO-550, Robertson STOL, 88" 3 blade black Mac, EW 2098#, mostly on 8.50s. Realize that many of the 180s and 185s are very different animals from one to another.

    While I was transitioning I used it most of the time, nowadays only with high x-wnd. For me, the relatively small weight penalty the lock adds is outshined by adding another tool to the bag.

  32. #32
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by little wing View Post
    My 185 has the factory float kit which includes some pretty heavy springs on the rudder, heaviest I've ever felt. The larger 185 dorsal and heavy springs contribute to the leg fatigue mentioned earlier,..
    little wing,
    Exactly which springs are you referring to? There are two different sets of springs which connect the rudder bellcranks in the tail to the tail wheel steering and water rudder steering cables. The springs which are used for the water rudders are the "heavy" ones. The springs which are used for the tail wheel steering are the "light" ones. These springs are supposed to be changed when changing between floats and wheels. Are you using the seaplane springs while on wheels?
    N1PA
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  33. #33
    little wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    little wing,
    Exactly which springs are you referring to? There are two different sets of springs which connect the rudder bellcranks in the tail to the tail wheel steering and water rudder steering cables. The springs which are used for the water rudders are the "heavy" ones. The springs which are used for the tail wheel steering are the "light" ones. These springs are supposed to be changed when changing between floats and wheels. Are you using the seaplane springs while on wheels?
    Thanks man, I'm not sure which are in there. Can't remember for certain, but think it was only on skis without ever being on floats. Just for one season in 79, I'll look at the logs tomorrow. I have no idea which springs are installed, just know it pretty darn heavy. Thanks again for trying to help, but if I can trouble you for one more response, what am I looking for on the springs to know if it has the float springs installed, and what do I order if if they are?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    little wing,
    Exactly which springs are you referring to? There are two different sets of springs which connect the rudder bellcranks in the tail to the tail wheel steering and water rudder steering cables. The springs which are used for the water rudders are the "heavy" ones. The springs which are used for the tail wheel steering are the "light" ones. These springs are supposed to be changed when changing between floats and wheels. Are you using the seaplane springs while on wheels?
    I took it to mean he was referring to the centering springs mounted to the top of the tailcone near the vertical fin, and not the tailwheel/ water rudder springs on the bellcranks...

  35. #35
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by little wing View Post
    Thanks man, I'm not sure which are in there. Can't remember for certain, but think it was only on skis without ever being on floats. Just for one season in 79, I'll look at the logs tomorrow. I have no idea which springs are installed, just know it pretty darn heavy. Thanks again for trying to help, but if I can trouble you for one more response, what am I looking for on the springs to know if it has the float springs installed, and what do I order if if they are?
    Take off the belly inspection plate which is just ahead of the tail bulkhead. Look aft. The wire on the heavy springs is about 1/8" in diameter. The light springs are about half of that. You should have the other set of springs as they were delivered with the airplane in a big brown envelope.

    Quote Originally Posted by ak49flyer View Post
    I took it to mean he was referring to the centering springs mounted to the top of the tailcone near the vertical fin, and not the tailwheel/ water rudder springs on the bellcranks...
    I thought of that but they are relatively light and can be adjusted to have very little effect.
    N1PA

  36. #36
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by little wing View Post
    but think it was only on skis without ever being on floats.
    You can determine if it has ever been on floats just by looking at the fuselage ahead and below the lower forward corner of the baggage door. There will be two holes drilled by Cessna with buttons in them. If there are four holes someone put it on floats. The rear float fitting is used as a drilling fixture for the 3rd and 4th holes. This is the same on both sides of the fuselage.
    N1PA

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post

    also tail heavy loads will shimmy so bad they rip out the tailwheel stirring cables on asphalt ....
    I wonder if that there is finally validation enough to use wheel landings most of the time when heavy!
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 12-30-2017 at 09:52 AM.

  38. #38
    nanook's Avatar
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    I seem to remember removing the factory tail wheel locks on our 185s, when you could still get a factory new 185!
    Some pilots had a hard time remembering to unlock the tail wheel and would spin the mains off their wheels trying to turn.
    There were quite a few broken main wheel bolts incurred, also.
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  39. #39
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    I wonder if that there is finally validation enough to use wheel landings most of the time when heavy!
    Using a wheel landing is great, but to paraphrase an old saying: You can’t keep that tail up forever. At some point, that tailwheel is going to come down due to lack of airflow over the horizontal tail surfaces. And if it’s tail heavy, as Mike noted, that’s going to happen sooner, as opposed to later.

    I have three pointed a 185 in a significant crosswind while heavy, and used fairly heavy differential braking.....kept that tail solid in contact. But, again, that was a well set up tailwheel. I see a lot of pilots who pay zero attention to tailwheels.....and a few mechanics who pay almost no attention to tailwheels during maintenance.

    I was assigned a brand new 185 in 1986, with 25 or so hours on the clock. It came with tailwheel lock, but our maintenance crew had removed the lock. I don’t know what their logic was, but I never really missed the lock in any case.

    MTV

  40. #40

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    Yeah, I agree with that, for sure.
    I was thinking about the speed at which the tire rotation was initiated creating more likelihood of shimmy. As in, setting the tail down after a wheel landing is likely slower tailwheel speed than the initial upon 3-pointing. Would that make a difference?
    As someone who has not experienced notable tailwheel shimmy, even when heavy (3100+ lbs), I don't know. Guess I'm fortunate thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Using a wheel landing is great, but to paraphrase an old saying: You can’t keep that tail up forever. At some point, that tailwheel is going to come down due to lack of airflow over the horizontal tail surfaces. And if it’s tail heavy, as Mike noted, that’s going to happen sooner, as opposed to later.

    I have three pointed a 185 in a significant crosswind while heavy, and used fairly heavy differential braking.....kept that tail solid in contact. But, again, that was a well set up tailwheel. I see a lot of pilots who pay zero attention to tailwheels.....and a few mechanics who pay almost no attention to tailwheels during maintenance.

    I was assigned a brand new 185 in 1986, with 25 or so hours on the clock. It came with tailwheel lock, but our maintenance crew had removed the lock. I don’t know what their logic was, but I never really missed the lock in any case.

    MTV
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