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Thread: Therapy Project

  1. #41
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    BTW, I can't find 11994-18 in any of my Northland or other Piper files. I'm assuming it is sheet metal shaped as shown. Do you know if it's 4130 or whether something like 22 gauge mild steel would be sufficient?

  2. #42
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The shape is pretty obvious but here is drawing 11994 as well. Oh shot, just realized -18 is not included
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  3. #43
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The shape is pretty obvious but here is drawing 11994 as well. Oh shot, just realized -18 is not included
    Yup, that's what I have.

    Well, I think I'll use something that doesn't overpower the channel material that it is being welded to.

  4. #44

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    I've got another question, have you considered going with an airfoil shape on the tail feathers?

  5. #45
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I've got another question, have you considered going with an airfoil shape on the tail feathers?
    I have considered it, and researched it a bit. In the end, I decided to go with stock. It's my first build, after all, and I've got plenty of challenges without also trying to redesign things too much.

    Not that I'd be averse to trying them in the future. I'm sort of an inveterate tinkerer.

  6. #46
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Enjoying some spare time, I formed and laid out the second horizontal stabilizer. It went quicker the second time.



    After tacking it up, I put things on the floor with the elevators to see how it all lined up. Not bad, but it required a bit of adjusting.



    A bit of grinding away tacks, rejigging, using various means of tension and pressure, and it got pretty close. I also started to add those gussets Steve Pierce mentioned.



    I don't think I'll do anything with the hinges until I have a fuselage to attach it to. I have a bit more material to work on the vertical stabilizer.

    Then I'm girding up my loins in preparation for the big fuselage material order. Winter is a great time to do this sort of stuff, but I can see winter flying by.
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  7. #47
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Another block of time, another step along the way. Today I built the fin.

    I didn't take any pictures of the process, but it is fairly straightforward--no bends, just straight lines.



    I decided to take a stab at making hinges. The outer bushings are spec'd at 1/2 OD by .065. I was looking around for something I had on hand that might be used to align the bushings (a bit smaller than 3/8"). Turns out the threaded portion of a 3/8 carriage bolt is a nice snug fit.

    The inefficient way to start the hinges is to cut each bushing to size and the tack on a little platform from .062 steel plate.



    For future hinges, I'm going to steal stknrddr's idea: weld a strip of the .062 along the 1/2" bushing stock, and then cut the pieces.

    Next, I braced things together and made sure the vertical tubes were evenly spaced, leveled up the hinge assembly with bits of metal and wire. And tacked in place. It took a lot of heat with that carriage bolt in there, so it took a while to cool.



    So, one hinge done. The lower hinge is on the fuselage, so it will wait.



    I'm still having fun, and I'm still busy with dayjob work, but I'm pleased with progress so far.

    I need to finish weld the whole tail group. I'm still getting by with my clunky Victor setup. I've looked over other torches in person and I probably will be ordering a Smith AW1A next week, along with a whole bunch of tubes and other stuff.

  8. #48
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    RV

    Looks good! If you are gonna stay with the gas method you're gonna love the AW1, might save the Victor for the "big" welds. I also use threaded rod for tacking up these bushings as it doesn't absorb heat so much. But you might use a longer length instead of a shorter bolt as to include both hinge points at same time......... helps keep bushings aligned. You may already have this covered but you will need to make an 36+" or so extension for a 3/8 reamer to clean up and align each hinge point............ Ream one and then continue thru that one into the other. If you have a lathe handy it makes this easy.

    Nice work. I really appreciate seeing anyone else that will build form scratch!
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  9. #49
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Thanks SA. Threaded rod is on my list, but I'm not doing any more hinges until I have a fuselage to line up to.

    I think I'll have to order reamers, too. Nothing can be found locally as far as I can tell. I just haven't found a good source, yet.

    I don't have a lathe right now, but I see myself getting one--I keep looking around. A few years back I was going to build one from the Lindsay books, but realized I'd have a better one if I could find an old one used, even with worn out ways.

    Each step according to its time....

    Vic

  10. #50
    Lowrider
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    I have a Grizzly lathe and mill...not fancy but if you take your time it will do everything you need to a 0.001".

    Nice progress!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  11. #51
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Lowrider, do you have a combo mill/lathe, or two separate machines? I've been reluctant to look at those 2 in 1 machines, probably because my childhood best friend is a machinist who told me to steer clear.

    But I'm not ever going to be a production shop.
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  12. #52
    Lowrider
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    Combo.
    There are advantages to both...I can turn a rifle barrel in the lathe and cut a front sight dovetail without taking it off the machine. I would say you probably get a better quality machine if you buy separate but then they are also more expensive and take up more space. I'm set up on a 5' x 8' bench with all the tools necessary and the area is "over lighted" but it's nice to have more light than you need. Grizzly is not a production machine but it will do many things well enough. With an unlimited budget I would go with higher quality and separate machines.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  13. #53
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    Lowrider, do you have a combo mill/lathe, or two separate machines? I've been reluctant to look at those 2 in 1 machines, probably because my childhood best friend is a machinist who told me to steer clear.
    way too much hype from real machinists... anything will get you good enough for what we need... it's not like we build rockets... just fake birds...

  14. #54
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Thanks Lowrider. Good to know

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    way too much hype from real machinists... anything will get you good enough for what we need... it's not like we build rockets... just fake birds...
    Right! I was eyeing an old set of Audi cylinder heads I have laying on a shelf thinking I could cobble together something....Maybe use the camshaft and put some kind of face plate on it, but that would be just another rabbit hole. I should probably just sell them on Ebay and use the proceeds. The poor car was totaled by a man who "didn't see the stop sign."

  15. #55
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    I have a Smithy similar to this one. https://smithy.com/Smithy-Combo-Lathe-Mill-Midas Yes it's small and I have also heard those stories from "real" machinists. This works just fine for me having produced lots of intricate parts for my Cub with it. It keeps me entertained for days at a time.
    N1PA
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  16. #56
    Lowrider
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    Mine is very similar to Sky's machine and capable of most things that I want to do. I also have a table top Unimat lathe and mill that works very much like the bigger machine but the bed is only about 12" long will make small items very accurately as long as you don't get in a hurry.

    I am NO machinist!! Totally self taught and I would never provide advice contrary to a REAL machinist but I have been successful making things I need and it seems I learn something new each time I use the thing.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  17. #57
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I did learn the hard way that when machining steel you do need a cooling lubricant flowing over the bit. They don't cut very well after turning red hot. I made a lubricant squirter out of a 5 gallon plastic pail, an old hydraulic pump from a Lake LA-4, plastic tubing from ACE aircraft supply store and a gallon of 5606 (hydraulic fluid). Of course you can buy one of these but these parts were in my inventory collection.
    N1PA

  18. #58

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    Tools,
    I have two real Bridgeport mills and a 14" Warner Swasey lathe as well as an 18" disc sander and about 5 tons of other machines and metal forming tools.
    I also have 3 Tig welders and two Mig welders as well, but I do not consider myself either a machinist nor a welder. I am a parts maker, I make allot of parts for all sorts of things.
    To me tools make the job easier and generally faster. It is the person making the parts that makes them accurate.
    A person with ingenuity can make most anything. A Machinist generally needs a blueprint to make a part.

    Anyone want to bring up engineers? Many of these guys have a history to design stuff that is impractical to build. To me again it is those with ingenuity who get usable parts made.

  19. #59
    Lowrider
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    Same lesson learned with a low tech solution. I cut really slow and shallow and squirt ATF with some STP mixed in by hand and catch most of it with a specially modified Cool Whip container...it can get messy. I have had really good luck with carbide bits on steel. I still use steel bits on soft metals since they can be shaped easily with a fine grinder wheel and dressed up with a green wheel.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  20. #60
    Lowrider
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Tools,
    I have two real Bridgeport mills and a 14" Warner Swasey lathe as well as an 18" disc sander and about 5 tons of other machines and metal forming tools.
    I also have 3 Tig welders and two Mig welders as well, but I do not consider myself either a machinist nor a welder. I am a parts maker, I make allot of parts for all sorts of things.
    To me tools make the job easier and generally faster. It is the person making the parts that makes them accurate.
    A person with ingenuity can make most anything. A Machinist generally needs a blueprint to make a part.

    Anyone want to bring up engineers? Many of these guys have a history to design stuff that is impractical to build. To me again it is those with ingenuity who get usable parts made.
    Great collection Charlie!! I'd love to have a big mill but I treated myself to on big upgrade in my new shop...a 2 post car lift...need it to work on my '58 Jeep FC 150...and other toys...maybe even airplanes.

    I gotta agree with your engineer comment...and to think I had 40 hours of engineering courses before I came to my senses. I also came close to going to law school TWICE but found an MBA more useful.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  21. #61
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I have a "flatbed" Atlas that was popular in the '60's. I bought it in the '80's and got a lot of tooling with it. My real machinist buddy told me at the time I got a hell of a deal and he could make it do anything but I'm still a hack. I wish I would have paid more attention to his tutoring. (He is gone now) I also have a table top mill/drill that is popular for hacks like me. It does have an R8 spindle but I haven't really done much with it except drill holes. I do fishmouth tubing on my Atlas with a vee block I made adapted to my milling vice using fine pitch roughing mills. I don't make acute angles, mostly perpendicular cuts but its nice and accurate for fuselage cross members. I don't even use lube on the cut as I don't want to clean up the oil mess. I figure a chinese mill bit from Enco for 15 bucks is collateral damage and the cost of doing business. Enough thread drift from me.

  22. #62
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    Enough thread drift from me.
    Don't stop on my account! I'm taking all this stuff in.

    I've got limited space right now, but I'm aleady scoping out a spot for an essential toy---I mean tool.


    Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  23. #63

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    If I chose one machine to buy it would be as much of a milling machine I could get. By as much as, I mean as close to one of the full size knee mills, Bridgeport, Enco whatever.
    Lathes are nice to have but the mill will do so much more such as if you need to true the ends up on bushings, clamp the bush in the collet and a tool bit in the vice. You can turn part of the OD, face an end and bore or ream the part. Then turn the part around and work the other end.
    Fishmouthing tubes, use either an endmill or a hole saw in the mill. Digital protractor or the magnetic mount cube for an accurate setup if you know just what the angle needs to be or creep up to the angle bit at a time if needed. Nice thing with this method is you can easily offset the cut if the tube should not be on centerline.
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  24. #64
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    I started with hand tools, moved to a 3in1 machine, then CNC mill, CNC lathe, and then added an old Bridgeport mill. I find most of the parts that I make are made on the Bridgeport. I agree with CharlieN that they are very useful machines and used ones are not all that expensive.

  25. #65
    Lowrider
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    I can only dream of CNC but for production or repeatable items they are priceless. We have a company in town that rents time on their machines but you need to have your design on a thumb drive. Getting design from my head to a digital representation is a challenge for me.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #66

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    I ocasionally get frustrated on my mill when I just can not easily achieve the contours that I want and either need to simplify the part or do handwork to get the curves. I look into doing a conversion on my good machine to CNC but soon realize how much that restricts me from what I truly use the machine daily for, making simple cuts accurately. If I tighten up my older mill It would be better than just a good drillpress but I never get around to that.
    But I soon have use of a new to the area CNC mill and I have some drawings I am getting ready to send to code.
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  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Getting design from my head to a digital representation is a challenge for me.
    That is a challenging learning curve to achieve. Back in the mid 80's I took to Autocad quite easily, somehow it seemed natural for me having had proper training in Architectural drafting and my first airplanes had all been drawn on paper. 95% of what I draw now is on 20 YO ACAD software, as in that is what the plane I am currently building is drawn in.
    But recently trying to get my mind up to speed in Solidworks is not happening quickly. I had started becoming proficient on Pro-E 20 years back but when that computer broke I could never got that student version running again, it needed it's one version of operating system MS NT3.5 and I never set that up again on a fresh system.
    But with EAA's help Soidworks in a good system to draw on.

  28. #68
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Go back to old-school Charlie

    https://youtu.be/mHBanmfn_CA

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  29. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Go back to old-school Charlie

    https://youtu.be/mHBanmfn_CA

    Glenn
    That is a good demonstration of hand fitting tubes.

  30. #70
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Go back to old-school Charlie

    https://youtu.be/mHBanmfn_CA

    Glenn
    I just looked at a few excerpts, but I think that's pretty much how I do it so far. Except I use dividers to mark curve outer dimensions and I haven't been using a handheld grinder.

    Like CharlieN mentioned, I have a bench grinder with two different dressed stones. On larger tubes, I freehand cut the profiles close with aviation shears, and then touch up with the grinder.

  31. #71

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    I think one thing I have grown to like when fitting tubes on a mill compared to a radius dressed grinding wheel, I get to watch the cut. This allows me to back out if it looks like I set it up wrong. Tube notchers, at least the ones that use a hole saw offer this but the one I used many years back was not still enough such that the saw was prone to catching. This might or might not be an issue with the thin, small tube were are working with.
    There are guillotine- shear type notchers as well but they are all but useless in my opinion.
    Granted a milling machine is a major investment but for what were are working with the small mills should be fine as well as a really good vice on a serious drill press.
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  32. #72
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I think one thing I have grown to like when fitting tubes on a mill compared to a radius dressed grinding wheel, I get to watch the cut. This allows me to back out if it looks like I set it up wrong. Tube notchers, at least the ones that use a hole saw offer this but the one I used many years back was not still enough such that the saw was prone to catching. This might or might not be an issue with the thin, small tube were are working with.
    There are guillotine- shear type notchers as well but they are all but useless in my opinion.
    Granted a milling machine is a major investment but for what were are working with the small mills should be fine as well as a really good vice on a serious drill press.
    or you can use a lathe as someone on here pointed out years ago using a boring bar holder for the tube and setting angle... just be careful and not go to far and have it curl in the thin part of tube as you finish or it gets exciting quick!!

    oh and one of my favorite tools for the mill, great time saver
    http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.co...10-000-09-000/

  33. #73
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    you can also just use your aviation snips to cut thin .035" tube angles, very fast....

  34. #74
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    you can also just use your aviation snips to cut thin .035" tube angles, very fast....
    I tried that a couple of weeks ago and was surprised how easy and smooth it turned out.

    Right now I'm sort of on hold waiting for my big tube order to ship. I checked on the Wag Aero "fuselage kit" and they were talking 8 weeks. I sorted through all the drawings and talked with Wicks, and they are saying 1-2 weeks.

    So I'm now in danger of having a touch of free time, letting me search for milling machines, etc. CharlieN, you've almost convinced me to get a decent milling machine first. But I started looking at littlemachineshop.com and might get distracted yet again.

    I suppose it's a good thing that I have to pay a bunch of money for licensing fees and business taxes by the end of the month to keep me temporarily out of trouble.
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  35. #75
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    So I'm now in danger of having a touch of free time, letting me search for milling machines, etc. CharlieN, you've almost convinced me to get a decent milling machine first. But I started looking at littlemachineshop.com and might get distracted yet again.
    you're down in the states, you should be able to find a used mill easy.... or run over to http://www.grizzly.com and pick a new one up

  36. #76
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I use just about everything mentioned to get the final result. I never use one of the "joint jigger" type hole saw cutters on anything under 1" in diameter. Not a good tool investment if tube fuselages are your main project. Silver pencil and snips work good on .035 wall. I even hog out a cut on .035 with snips sometimes before finishing in my lathe. Here is a cluster that is mostly cut with snips. I have a Harbor Freight "mini" chop saw (6" wheel)that I took the guard off for manual grinding. I hand grind my silver pencil marks and I get accurate results with it.(gloves and eye protection NOT optional) Everybody has their favorites. One luxury I have for the last five years is my wireless foot pedal for my tig. Even though you still have to drag the torch around its great not dealing with a pedal cord when spending a lot of time under the hood on a fuselage.
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  37. #77
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    you're down in the states, you should be able to find a used mill easy.... or run over to http://www.grizzly.com and pick a new one up
    Right. So far I’ve found one only 2 hours away—a Simplon horizontal mill, which at $2500 is only about 50 cents a pound!
    I’d have to build another wing on the shop, though. And probably rig up a 3 ton gantry to get it out of the truck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    I use just about everything mentioned to get the final result. I never use one of the "joint jigger" type hole saw cutters on anything under 1" in diameter. Not a good tool investment if tube fuselages are your main project. Silver pencil and snips work good on .035 wall.
    Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one who is suspicious of a hole saw on .035 tubing. Before plunging into a joint jigger thing, I tried a straight 90 degree cut on some scrap in the drill press. It didn’t look promising. It seemed like, at best, the setup would be more tedious than just drawing lines and cutting or grinding to the lines.

    I like your snipped joints. I’ll probably stick with that as the first bit of shaping.

  38. #78
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    In the bicycle world they use tube coping calculator programs to print a paper outline template to wrap around the tube and then a marker to transfer that cut line to the tube. In the programs you enter the diameter of both tubes and the angle of intersection. You then print, cut the paper, follow the cut line with a marker, and then trim the pipe back to the cut line. An example program is http://metalgeek.com/static/cope_custom.pcgi
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  39. #79
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    The paper wraparound template can be created with Solidworks also, but I don't know how to do it. BTW, Solidworks is free via EAA membership.
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  40. #80
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimboflying View Post
    In the bicycle world they use tube coping calculator programs to print a paper outline template to wrap around the tube and then a marker to transfer that cut line to the tube. In the programs you enter the diameter of both tubes and the angle of intersection. You then print, cut the paper, follow the cut line with a marker, and then trim the pipe back to the cut line. An example program is http://metalgeek.com/static/cope_custom.pcgi
    Yeah, that's a pretty neat program. I've tried it out a bit. I confess to having some initial troubles printing out the outline to scale. I finally got a test 60 degree pattern cut after 10 or 15 minutes. It does leave a nice cut line.

    But I'm not completely confident of my paper cutting skills. On scrap I tried out a modification of something I learned long ago, lofting boats: Use dividers to mark a few places and eyeball the curve. The key is to hold the dividers at a consistent angle.

    I suppose, if I want to run an efficiency test, I could try doing 10 tubes with the printout approach, and 10 tubes with the eyeball trim and trim some more, and see what works best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    The paper wraparound template can be created with Solidworks also, but I don't know how to do it. BTW, Solidworks is free via EAA membership.
    I joined EAA a couple months ago and saw that. I'm not a Luddite, but I'm sort of scared of the potential for rabbit-holing my time. That is a fascinating program!

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