• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • Hey! Be sure to login or register!

Therapy Project

Here's a screen grab of the Cessna flap and cove cross section. Note the upper overlap lip extending aft over the flap and the design to the forward curved intake to the cove.

Gary
Keep in mind that this flap moves aft as well as down. If it were just hinged down, that top overlap would be further forward. In this case when the Cessna flap is down, the open gap size is the same as the Cub's hinged opening.
 
Even with a simple pivot you can get similar travel to the Cessna system. Just that you have head banging pivots well down under the wing as mine will have.
 
Wow. I've been off-line all day driving through snow storms and having hearings in remote courts--and I come back to see a lot of good ideas.

Thanks everyone. Gary, before I saw your Tern photos I was thinking of drawing something like that. It's great to see it's been done before. I see it has the bottom of the cove radius just as Pete described.

Charlie, I printed a wing profile and am cutting out shapes this evening. The head-banging hinge is something that I've been trying to avoid, but I might live with it and wear a hard hat. I know I'll bang my head at least once. I've done it on a Cessna twice.

While I was driving, I was imagining a modified track system that mimicked a pivot like a low hanging hinge. Not as complex as the Cessna's, but it might be more complicated than I want. There's always that balance between the elegant, the outlandish, and the "just get it done."

Vic
 
Snip snip, measure with ruler and compass. I haven't had so much fun since grade school:


Sorry for bad quality lighting and composition. Cell phone camera on a makeshift platform, but I think there is promise here.

The hinge point is only 3.2" below the flap surface, which seems just enough to scalp, but not render unconscious.

In the photos, the hinge point was adjusted ever so slightly forward compared to the video.

20200114_201436-scaled.jpg

20200114_201513-scaled.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20200114_201436-scaled.jpg
    20200114_201436-scaled.jpg
    59.5 KB · Views: 183
  • 20200114_201513-scaled.jpg
    20200114_201513-scaled.jpg
    56.9 KB · Views: 158
Husky put some rubber baby buggy bumpers on their flap hinge linkage = MTV might have some scar based feedback. I can see a couple of soft rubber oversize discs clamped by the hinge hardware dampening the experience.

Gary
 
Vic, You are getting there. As shown your gap between the flap and wing is closed until the flap is nearly fully deflected. This can initiate flow separation on top of the flap until the gap opens when it suddenly reattaches. This will effect your intermediate positions. Try moving your pivot point around until the gap starts to open as the flap begins it movement. Perhaps forward a bit? The gap wants to gradually open as the flap moves down.
 
Vic, You are getting there. As shown your gap between the flap and wing is closed until the flap is nearly fully deflected. This can initiate flow separation on top of the flap until the gap opens when it suddenly reattaches. This will effect your intermediate positions. Try moving your pivot point around until the gap starts to open as the flap begins it movement. Perhaps forward a bit? The gap wants to gradually open as the flap moves down.

Moving the pivot forward is going the right direction:


With these dimensions I think I'll mock up a full size model out of scrap ply.
 
and on a cove shaped like that, the fabric tends to try to pull off, once the glue dries up and releases.

so you might want a metal strip over fabric like the -18 uses in aileron bay, and cover that with a tape...
mike, That is true with dope, more so with butyrate than nitrate. I haven't seen any evidence of that with the Stewarts glue.
 
I've been slow at updating, and not particularly fast on the project lately, but things have progressed.

We left off with me contemplating flap coves. I cut some 1/4 birch ply to match the configuration I settled on.

20200120_143146-scaled.jpg

20200120_145657-scaled.jpg

20200122_191853-scaled.jpg

I installed gussets and cleaned up the ribs and put them on the spars. For some reason those photos are somewhere else right now.

In the meantime, I threw together a mock-up of flaps to pin down the pivot location. I know, if I'd learn CAD I could do it faster, but tangible mock-ups have a satisfying feel when they finally work.


Then a member here graciously sent me some spar attach brackets. They had some surface rust, but cleaned up well with Evap O Rust, which I had never used before.

20200222_145658-scaled.jpg

20200224_185935-scaled.jpg

Not sure how many photos I can put into a thread, so I'll continue below.
 

Attachments

  • 20200120_143146-scaled.jpg
    20200120_143146-scaled.jpg
    99.7 KB · Views: 165
  • 20200120_145657-scaled.jpg
    20200120_145657-scaled.jpg
    126.3 KB · Views: 146
  • 20200122_191853-scaled.jpg
    20200122_191853-scaled.jpg
    92.9 KB · Views: 153
  • 20200222_145658-scaled.jpg
    20200222_145658-scaled.jpg
    94.4 KB · Views: 157
  • 20200224_185935-scaled.jpg
    20200224_185935-scaled.jpg
    143.5 KB · Views: 148
Then on to compression struts. I built a jig from some left over steel.

20200224_191329-scaled.jpg

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]The 3/4" tube was slightly long. My little lathe trimmed it down nicely and squared the ends.

20200224_191410-scaled.jpg

Welding them up.

20200224_192901-scaled.jpg

20200224_193000-scaled.jpg

Testing drag wire layout

20200302_193806-scaled.jpg

I didn't have a nipple wrench, but a slot cut into a small tube seemed to work.

20200306_185353-scaled.jpg

I used a homemade trammel and found the bays to be surprisingly square. Of course, I'm going to have to remove all the brackets, etc., so I can properly finish the spars and paint the hardware. But I wanted to check fit to this point.

Next, which took longer than I thought it would, was to fabricate spar attach brackets.

20200307_122610-scaled.jpg

20200307_123625-scaled.jpg

20200307_133145-scaled.jpg

Match drilling 5 pieces

20200307_142631-scaled.jpg

20200307_153052-scaled.jpg

Closed the day out gluing on the birch ply gussets on the spar ends.

gusset-scaled.jpg


[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
[/FONT]
 

Attachments

  • 20200224_191329-scaled.jpg
    20200224_191329-scaled.jpg
    135.3 KB · Views: 153
  • 20200224_191410-scaled.jpg
    20200224_191410-scaled.jpg
    159 KB · Views: 139
  • 20200224_192901-scaled.jpg
    20200224_192901-scaled.jpg
    123.1 KB · Views: 156
  • 20200224_193000-scaled.jpg
    20200224_193000-scaled.jpg
    116 KB · Views: 143
  • 20200302_193806-scaled.jpg
    20200302_193806-scaled.jpg
    96.8 KB · Views: 146
  • 20200306_185353-scaled.jpg
    20200306_185353-scaled.jpg
    76.3 KB · Views: 150
  • 20200307_122610-scaled.jpg
    20200307_122610-scaled.jpg
    89.9 KB · Views: 130
  • 20200307_123625-scaled.jpg
    20200307_123625-scaled.jpg
    59.9 KB · Views: 128
  • 20200307_133145-scaled.jpg
    20200307_133145-scaled.jpg
    146.4 KB · Views: 127
  • 20200307_142631-scaled.jpg
    20200307_142631-scaled.jpg
    149.3 KB · Views: 117
  • 20200307_153052-scaled.jpg
    20200307_153052-scaled.jpg
    140.7 KB · Views: 110
  • gusset-scaled.jpg
    gusset-scaled.jpg
    94.5 KB · Views: 117
I might as well chronicle a blunder. I wanted to fit the diagonal cross-brace tabs on the two inner-most compression struts that surround the fuel tank bay.

Cut out metal according to the drawings.

20200309_193423-scaled.jpg

Then tack it together at the right angle. I distinctly remember telling myself twice to remember to lay it out so the tab pointed in plane with the wing.

20200310_191646-scaled.jpg

Happily welded the whole thing:

20200310_193248-scaled.jpg

Oops. The discerning will note that the tab is 90 degrees misaligned.

I couldn't find anything safe to kick, so I took the opportunity to do some destructive testing. No pictures, but I was pleased to see that the tab finally broke away above the weld. I was thinking I really should test this attachment point anyway, because it is strictly in tension/compression. No way would it pull apart. It failed only when I put a shearing twist on it, and in unwelded metal.

So, redid the process on another strut.

20200311_190348-scaled.jpg

Checking fit:

20200311_193231-scaled.jpg

I have reservations about the design, but suppose it works. What bothers me is that the diagonal tube is flattened at both ends and simply bolted to the tab and the other tab closest to the fuselage. It seems like push-pull forces would be off-center of the tabs. Plenty of Wag airplanes flying with this, but it still offends my sense of order. I'll have to mull this over a bit.
 

Attachments

  • 20200309_193423-scaled.jpg
    20200309_193423-scaled.jpg
    93.3 KB · Views: 102
  • 20200310_191646-scaled.jpg
    20200310_191646-scaled.jpg
    123.6 KB · Views: 93
  • 20200310_193248-scaled.jpg
    20200310_193248-scaled.jpg
    94 KB · Views: 91
  • 20200311_190348-scaled.jpg
    20200311_190348-scaled.jpg
    125.8 KB · Views: 103
  • 20200311_193231-scaled.jpg
    20200311_193231-scaled.jpg
    81.9 KB · Views: 104
It is amazing how many simple structures that through today's analysis just should not work, but do and have been for the ninety some years that part was first made.
 
It is amazing how many simple structures that through today's analysis just should not work, but do and have been for the ninety some years that part was first made.

No doubt you are right, Charlie. I did look at Piper drawing 10641. It shows the diagonal drag brace. Same material and dimensions as my plans, but after flattening the ends, they specify a 1/16" slot for the tab to fit through. I think I'll try that, though it might make tank installation a bigger hassle.
 
Vic

Wondering why you didn't use the original J3 style nipples in the compression strut ends? Are you going with something larger than the #6 brace wire? I have used #8 wire in the original flange holes opened up slightly. Oh............... this is for the tank bay.
 
Last edited:
No doubt you are right, Charlie. I did look at Piper drawing 10641. It shows the diagonal drag brace. Same material and dimensions as my plans, but after flattening the ends, they specify a 1/16" slot for the tab to fit through. I think I'll try that, though it might make tank installation a bigger hassle.
Match drilling the holes for that cross tube will take some thought to get it correct. Think of where you are going to hold the drill without damaging something. The wing bay will have to be held square prior to drilling.
 
Vic

Wondering why you didn't use the original J3 style nipples in the compression strut ends? Are you going with something larger than the #6 brace wire? I have used #8 wire in the original flange holes opened up slightly. Oh............... this is for the tank bay.

I am using the nipples everywhere else. But in the fuel tank bay the plans show a 5/8 .035 diagonal tube going through the fuel tank as a cross brace instead of drag wires. That's almost identical to the PA-18 wing shown in the Northland plans.

Oops, now I see you saw it was for the tank bay....

I was planning to stay with #6 wires as specified.
 
Match drilling the holes for that cross tube will take some thought to get it correct. Think of where you are going to hold the drill without damaging something. The wing bay will have to be held square prior to drilling.

I've been pondering that. My plan was to square up the wings at all the other bays and then fit tube to the tabs. Check squareness. Then centerpunch with centering punches if I can fit them in place. Drill in a drill press.

Mess up and repeat.

It would be nice if I could have some kind of threaded adjustment on that diagonal, but it seems overly complicated.
 
I've been pondering that. My plan was to square up the wings at all the other bays and then fit tube to the tabs. Check squareness. Then centerpunch with centering punches if I can fit them in place. Drill in a drill press.

Mess up and repeat.

It would be nice if I could have some kind of threaded adjustment on that diagonal, but it seems overly complicated.
Do you have room to drill through the tube and the tab at the root rib without interference? Perhaps using a long drill will help. Or perhaps a right angle drill? If I did what you are suggesting, the parts would move by the time I got it on the drill press.
 
Do you have room to drill through the tube and the tab at the root rib without interference? Perhaps using a long drill will help. Or perhaps a right angle drill? If I did what you are suggesting, the parts would move by the time I got it on the drill press.

It's pretty tight. I don't think an angle drill would fit. It looks like you'd either have to drill through the compression strut tube or the spar if you wanted to use a long bit. I don't think I want to try that.
 
Just square up the wing, mark the tab from the previously drilled tube, disassemble and drill the tab like you mentioned earlier. One simple way to mark the hole in the tab is with a little shot of rattle-can paint thru the hole in the flattened tube.
 
Progress on the wing. Fabrication of the N-strut.

After squaring up the wing, I laid tubes in place and then clamped with my high-tech angle-preserving clamp (2 scraps of ply and a screw)

20200314_154421-scaled.jpg

Tacked things together and checked fit.

20200314_162645-scaled.jpg

Before I got too carried away, though, I realized I needed to remove a bit more of the uprights on the ribs next to the strut attach fittings so they would fit over the fittings. I should have done it before putting on the wing, now I can't easily get the rib off.

But that just meant an opportunity to make another tool--I ground a 3/32 piece of welding rod into the shape of a spade bit.

Microdrill-scaled-e1584934577378.jpg

Nice and flexible, it bent parallel to the spar, allowing for end holes for the gap I'd cut out with an oscillating multi-tool. It cut pretty well.

microdrilling-scaled.jpg

After that, I cleaned and primed all the various parts and put them in.

20200320_195956-scaled.jpg

20200320_200010-scaled.jpg

Added drag wires and did initial tramming.

compstrut-1-scaled.jpg

wingroot-scaled.jpg

There is a mystery, though. After I snugged up the compression struts and N-strut, the spars are straight according to string lines along their lengths, but in the middle there is a 1/16" twist on the rear spar near the N-strut. That is, the space between spars on the top is 1/16 less than the space on the bottom. The ends are right on. Using a level, I can see the rear spar is slightly twisted in, and I'm trying to account for that. The N-Strut measured square, but now it doesn't....

So I'm contemplating shims, or removing things and starting over.
 

Attachments

  • 20200314_154421-scaled.jpg
    20200314_154421-scaled.jpg
    145 KB · Views: 109
  • 20200314_162645-scaled.jpg
    20200314_162645-scaled.jpg
    130.9 KB · Views: 113
  • Microdrill-scaled-e1584934577378.jpg
    Microdrill-scaled-e1584934577378.jpg
    61.4 KB · Views: 114
  • microdrilling-scaled.jpg
    microdrilling-scaled.jpg
    113.9 KB · Views: 113
  • 20200320_195956-scaled.jpg
    20200320_195956-scaled.jpg
    134.2 KB · Views: 118
  • 20200320_200010-scaled.jpg
    20200320_200010-scaled.jpg
    112.7 KB · Views: 119
  • compstrut-1-scaled.jpg
    compstrut-1-scaled.jpg
    162.9 KB · Views: 115
  • wingroot-scaled.jpg
    wingroot-scaled.jpg
    186.3 KB · Views: 113
View attachment 47759


There is a mystery, though. After I snugged up the compression struts and N-strut, the spars are straight according to string lines along their lengths, but in the middle there is a 1/16" twist on the rear spar near the N-strut. That is, the space between spars on the top is 1/16 less than the space on the bottom. The ends are right on. Using a level, I can see the rear spar is slightly twisted in, and I'm trying to account for that. The N-Strut measured square, but now it doesn't....

So I'm contemplating shims, or removing things and starting over.
Shrinkage from welding the N strut.
 
Hi Vic. Shims are fine. My drag stunts shrank a little and I had to add .020 or .025 aluminum disks. If I remember reading correctly, Boeing's first wing set for the 787 fit perfectly on one side but needed .040 shims on the other.
 
Hi Vic. Shims are fine. My drag stunts shrank a little and I had to add .020 or .025 aluminum disks. If I remember reading correctly, Boeing's first wing set for the 787 fit perfectly on one side but needed .040 shims on the other.

Thanks for that. I really didn't want to try to refabricate all that, only to shrink them yet again.

Vic
 
Back
Top