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Thread: Building a Javron Wing Kit

  1. #1
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Building a Javron Wing Kit




    Folks


    I have ordered a wing kit from Javron and I will post a "Builders Manual" on here as I go. This will also be made into a hard copy "Builders Manual" that will be given out with Javron Wing Kits in the future.
    I have ordered a round tip, very stock wing kit. My plan is to build a set of round tip wings and compare them to my current "Square Tip" wings to determine the performance differences, if any. Over the years we have all heard about the square tip wings and the performance difference but every time I have read or heard of this, and the "performance gains" the wing change out has been accompanied by a myriad of other changes done to the airframe at the same time thereby masking the true affect of the wing. My intent is to change only one variable, the wing itself, and try to document the performance changes as accurately as I can. I received the following information from Jay DeRosier at Javron regarding his wings........

    Bill
    Just thought you may be interested in these numbers. We have all four different wing configurations in the shop at the same time so it was a perfect time to compare weights between them.


    All weights include fully assembled wing with flap, aileron, gas tank, tank lid, all internal pulleys and hardware. These figures do not include any covering, fuel tank plumbing, pitot or static plumbing, or lights and hardware. All of these wings were weighed exactly the same with the same parts installed.

    Round Tip Wing with 18 gal tanks 91 Lbs.

    Round Tip Wing with 24 gal tanks 96 Lbs.

    Square Tip Wing with 18 gal tanks 99 Lbs.

    Square Tip Wing with 24 gal tanks 104 Lbs.

    Jay

    Javron provides these wings in Kit form with everything predrilled and all parts included to include the flaps, ailerons, fuel tanks, tank covers and all pulleys internal to the wings. He does not include lights, pitot static parts, wires, cables, or fabric and paint. The kits run about 13.5K. A complete set of wings all built up runs about 18.5K


    I currently have square tip wings with 18 gallon tanks on my Javron Cub. That build thread is here......

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...g-a-Javron-Cub

    As before, I will
    try to weigh everything and post the results here so you may build comparative data if you choose to build up a set of wings using a different kit or materials. I stopped in to his shop and had an opportunity to see his new shop addition.


    This is the welding part of Javron. Currently about 8 fuselages under construction. The shop expansion will give room for more organization and also (hopefully) speed up construction, thus reducing the time delay between your order and actual delivery.




    A wing under construction at Javron






    The outside of the new building/addition. This will not quite double the size of the shop but it is a significant expansion. The building is 60 x 100.




    Inside of the addition. This will eventually have a dedicated area for parts and shipping. Again, Jay is trying to get better delivery times. This will also allow more room for "Builder Assist" which Jay says he is doing a lot of. You can come spend a week (or more depending on your pocket book) working on your kit in the shop. This is a HUGE jumpstart on building your kit and I can see it saving months and months of work.



    So........I hope to get my wing kit before the end of the year and I will document the build here as best I can.

    Hope this helps

    Bill

  2. #2
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Wow!

    I'll be watching closely. Thanks.
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  3. #3
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Awesome idea Bill, thanks for doing it. Wish they were certified
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  4. #4
    sub3's Avatar
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    Anyone know how the Javron round tip 18gal weight compares to a stock wing, same configuration? 15lbs heavier?

  5. #5
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sub3 View Post
    Anyone know how the Javron round tip 18gal weight compares to a stock wing, same configuration? 15lbs heavier?
    Nobody builds parts as light as Piper did.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Bill,
    What is the span dimension of the round vs square wing? Butt rib to tip?
    Are the flaps the same length? Ailerons?

    An 8 pound difference between round and square is indicative of considerably more material, as in more span.

    Looking forward to your final evaluation.
    N1PA
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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Pete

    I don't have the exact dimension but the square tip wing is almost exactly 1 foot longer than the round. A stock Piper wing has a 62" flap and a 102" aileron. Add 4 inches to the flap to extend it into the fuselage (to eliminate the wing root fairing), thus a stock flap is now 66"

    With the square tip wing the aileron is moved outboard a total of 24". It is the same length, 102", just moved out to maintain roll authority. The flap then is enlarged to take up the remaining space, thus the flap on a square tip wing is 90". Part of the difference in weight is the square tip wing has 3 hinges for both the flap and aileron, and the 24 gallon tanks have three straps Vs 2 straps for the 18 gallon tanks. Plus the spars are longer. It all adds up pretty quick.

    Jay has also built up wings with 102", and 110" flaps and made the aileron shorter. The 102" flap still seems to offer pretty good roll authority but I have heard that the 110" flap starts to affect the aileron effectiveness.

    My current plan is a stock round tip setup. If I win the lottery I will add a set of Keller Flaps, but only after all testing is done to ensure valid apples to apples data.

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  8. #8
    G44's Avatar
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    Bill, this is great that you are doing this! I have one request / suggestion. Weigh the wing completed with no covering, then with fabric with no dope or paint then all done. It would be interesting to see how much fabric weighs then see what fabric with paint weighs. Just a thought.

    Kurt

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Nobody builds parts as light as Piper did.

    Glenn
    This has always been my understanding as well, particularly concerning ribs, but I just saw an experimental cub today with carbon cub ribs and was told they're lighter than Piper ribs- anyone have data to refute/back this up?

  10. #10
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Kurt

    I will weigh EVERYTHING. But just to speed things up a little, here is the data from my current Cub (reposted from "Building a Javron Cub" thread)

    In order - precover/covered/primer/sanded primer/final paint weight
    Wings
    Left - 73.85/79.4/85.25/84.2 (85.7/85.05 reprimer/resand)/88.15
    Right - 73.2/78.85/83.8/83.5/86.8
    So total covering and paint for the wings was 446.4oz/27.9pds (roughly 14 pds each)

    L Flap - 76.06/86.8/xx/97.0/103.0
    R Flap - 75.95/86.15/xx/96.15/102.5
    R Aileron - 88.28/99.26/xx/109.25/115.4
    L Aileron - 88.12/99.36/xx/107.6/113.68

    xx = I forgot to weigh after primer only, next number is after sanding the primer

    So total covering and paint on the flaps and ailerons was 106.17oz/6.63pds

    Thus total paint for wings, flaps and ailerons is 17.3pds per wing.


    Hope this helps

    Bill
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  11. #11
    G44's Avatar
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    Thanks Bill !!!

    Kurt
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  12. #12

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    I was wondering why Javron didn't pay you to put together a builders manual on your last build.

    Good deal all around.

    Oh! and as for "Hope this helps". yes it does.
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  13. #13

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    Bill if you're board I'd be glad to share some items off of my to-do list...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  14. #14
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    The wing kit is supposed to be delivered Feb 15. Charlie Becker from the EAA will be here to see it, and film it. I ordered a new computer to help with the builders manual, and also all the photos, and updates on this thread.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  15. #15
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    The wing kit arrived Feb 15 as planned.



    It comes all boxed and on a pallet. I took it off the pallet and managed to leave that with the shipper. One less thing to get rid of.



    All the boxes and two tubes for the spars. Big tube for wing spars, smaller tube has the flap and aileron spars.



    Everything is very well packaged and nothing was damaged. Very well done.



    Wing leading edges. Each one separated by paper so they don't get scratched up.



    One of the hardware packs. Each sub pack is labeled. Includes everything right down to the rivets.



    Pushrods with ends and required nuts and bolts assembled.



    Everything is precut and pre drilled. These are the flap/aileron spars (nestled together for shipping)



    The steel parts are zinc plated. Very nice welding!!



    Pretty much everything. A lot of stuff is still nestled so you are not seeing every single part but this will give you a pretty good idea of what a Javron wing kit looks like.

    I had a suggestion to put a screw in the ends of the wingtip bows and to use a little safety wire to keep the bow in them so they don't relax too much while in storage. Done. Thanks.


    I am currently working on the annual condition inspection of my Javron Cub so it may be a few weeks until I am able to really dive into the new wings.

    Hope this helps


    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 02-17-2018 at 06:41 PM.
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    Status

    Hello Bill,

    Any progress on the wing kit?

    Thanks
    Charlie

  17. #17
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Charlie

    Thanks for asking. Unfortunately no. I've been pretty wrapped up trying to get my current cub ready for another summer in Alaska. Hope to get started in July.

    Bst regards

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  18. #18
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Building a Javron Wing Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Kurt

    I will weigh EVERYTHING. But just to speed things up a little, here is the data from my current Cub (reposted from "Building a Javron Cub" thread)

    In order - precover/covered/primer/sanded primer/final paint weight
    Wings
    Left - 73.85/79.4/85.25/84.2 (85.7/85.05 reprimer/resand)/88.15
    Right - 73.2/78.85/83.8/83.5/86.8
    So total covering and paint for the wings was 446.4oz/27.9pds (roughly 14 pds each)

    L Flap - 76.06/86.8/xx/97.0/103.0
    R Flap - 75.95/86.15/xx/96.15/102.5
    R Aileron - 88.28/99.26/xx/109.25/115.4
    L Aileron - 88.12/99.36/xx/107.6/113.68

    xx = I forgot to weigh after primer only, next number is after sanding the primer

    So total covering and paint on the flaps and ailerons was 106.17oz/6.63pds

    Thus total paint for wings, flaps and ailerons is 17.3pds per wing.


    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Needed basic cub wing weights to compare to for a set of sq? Wings I’m about to cover. Did I interpret bills numbers correctly?? Some in pounds some in ounces .......


    In picture is what I come up with. My scale is old not sure how accurate it is and the wing was in my wing stand so probably 3 or 4lbs there that needs removing. But almost double the weight..... not counting leading edge slats and the flap leading edge slot pieces (so +4.5 lb for the flap pieces)

    Anyone got links to other weight threads?

    IMG_3155.JPG

  19. #19
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Stuff I have weighed and notes I have taken:

    Dakota Cub slots weigh 6.53 lbs each and you can subtract the weight of the nose ribs.

    Dakota Cub wings weigh 5-6 lbs. per wing more than stock.
    13 rib, DC ribs complete no cables. 68.4 lbs.
    Legend Cub Wing 57 lbs.
    Standard Super Cub wing w/Dakota Cub ribs 77.17 lbs.
    DC Square wing 86 lbs.
    DC Slotted Wing 92.5 lb.
    Stock 1982 Super Cub left wing with factory covering, fuel tank, fuel tank cover, landing light, nav light, flap gap seal, wing root fairing attach bracket, fuel hose. 96.5 lbs
    16 rib SC wing, Univair Ribs, 2K GW with carry-thru cable and strobe and nav light wires 72.9 lbs.
    13 rib Wing weighs 64 lbs. set up for flaps. Uncovered. No wires or light.
    same 13 rib wing weighs 72.7 lbs. covered in Polytone with minimum silver etc.
    Dakota Cub slotted wings with flaps, ailerons, tanks and covers 124 lbs. ea.
    Keller’s fowler flaps add 8 lbs.
    Maule wing 160 lbs. Ea.
    Dakota Cub J3 wing with 12 gallon fuel tank installed no lid, cables and nav light wire 77.9 lbs.
    Dakota Cub J3 wing, cables and nav light wire 66.5 lbs.
    68.4 lbs. 13 rib, DC ribs complete no cables.
    Super Cub Flaps
    Metal late model 4.8 lbs.
    Covered thru Polybrush 4.20 lbs.
    Old dope w/duct tape 4.5 lbs.
    DC extended inbrd. thru Polybrush 4.70 lbs.
    Aileron Cub Crafters cover and paint 7.2 lbs.
    Metal aileron 8.5 lbs.
    18 gallon Piper fuel tank 8.5 lbs.
    18 gallon DC fuel tank 9.9 lb.
    24 gallon DC fuel tank 12.4 lb.
    11 gallon DC fuel tank 7.15 lbs.
    24 gallon DC fuel tank lid 4.6 lbs.
    Piper tank lid 3.3 lbs stripped
    3.5 lbs factory paint
    Carbon Concepts tank lid 1.8 lbs.




    Steve Pierce

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  20. #20
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Mike - something seems wonky. Should be 8 to 15 pounds more. Yes, wing weights are in pounds, everything else in Oz.

    Steve - awesome. Thank you for posting that!!

    I think I remember Javron saying his Sq tip wing was about 4.5 pounds heavier than a round tip one, per panel.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  21. #21
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Building a Javron Wing Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Mike - something seems wonky. Should be 8 to 15 pounds more. Yes, wing weights are in pounds, everything else in Oz.

    Steve - awesome. Thank you for posting that!!

    I think I remember Javron saying his Sq tip wing was about 4.5 pounds heavier than a round tip one, per panel.

    Bill
    These are the heaviest cub wings I’ve ever lifted. Lots of bracing for the flaps and ailerons. No idea how good my scale is.. but these things are comparable to Cessna weight.

    Also, no tank covers included in the weight

    But if they work better then oh well....

    IMG_3151.JPGIMG_2777.JPGIMG_2776.JPGIMG_2779.JPG


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Needed basic cub wing weights to compare to for a set of sq? Wings I’m about to cover. Did I interpret bills numbers correctly?? Some in pounds some in ounces .......


    In picture is what I come up with. My scale is old not sure how accurate it is and the wing was in my wing stand so probably 3 or 4lbs there that needs removing. But almost double the weight..... not counting leading edge slats and the flap leading edge slot pieces (so +4.5 lb for the flap pieces)

    Anyone got links to other weight threads?

    IMG_3155.JPG
    Is the length of backcountry wings longer than the javron squared wings?

  23. #23
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderhead85 View Post
    Is the length of backcountry wings longer than the javron squared wings?
    These are 17 feet long from attach fittings to last rib.

    I also weighed myself on that scale and it seems plausible with the number I get at the house.


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