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Thread: Extended Gear

  1. #1

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    Extended Gear

    Hello fellows.
    Could someone tell me the advantages and disadvantages of a extended gear on a PA-18? Is it mandatory for use with Tundra tires? Can we use tundra 31" without the extended gear?

    Regards

    AC Muller
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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlbrun View Post
    Hello fellows.
    Could someone tell me the advantages and disadvantages of a extended gear on a PA-18? Is it mandatory for use with Tundra tires? Can we use tundra 31" without the extended gear?

    Regards

    AC Muller
    Advantage - Higher AOA when on the ground.

    Not required for 31" tires.

    Required for small tires and an 82" propeller.

    Tim
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  3. #3

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    A disadvantage of extended gear and/or tall tires is loading people/gear into and out of the plane. Fueling can also be a bit harder depending on the setup. Bit of thread drift, tall tailwheel/spring units also hurt AOA/prop clearance.

    DENNY
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    3" gear helps the angle of attack, AOA helps take off run. The biggest thing to me is prop clearance. I operate on sand and gravel a lot and the prop takes a beating. When I bought my Super Cub I started out on standard gear and 700x6 tires, went to 29" Bushwheels, then 3" extended gear and then 31" Bushwheels. All helped.
    Steve Pierce

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    Very enlightening

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    The item that drove extended gear in my memory was the use of Borer props with skis. Guys would switch from big tires to skis and not have FAA required prop clearance.

    Extended gear has a wider track as much as taller stance. Guys like that as well since big tires can be a little wobbly. Atlee Dodge made the first extended gear that I remember and while 3” extended served the purpose for prop clearance he didn’t like and advised against using 6” extended gear. On counter point Wayne Mackey’s SQ-12s have something like 10” extended gear. Wing mods drove that, no doubt.
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  7. #7

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    A bit of a weight penalty and defiantly some aerodynamic drag added.
    Hanging big tires further out and down affects AOA at cruise. I'm guessing 3-4 mph penalty, but curious what others think.
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  8. #8
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    1 1/4" 3" extended Atlee Dodge gear is 1.8 lbs each side heavier that stock Piper gear from the ones I have weighed. I consider them a must on my airplane for my mission.
    Steve Pierce

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  9. #9
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    As you raise the front of the aircraft, bigger tires, longer gear, you also increase the force needed to lift the tail.

    When landing the extra tail weight is a good thing, taking off not so much.

    3" gear helped in most applications I used my cub in. It was really nice for skis, as the towers were not super tall, and as said before I could not meet prop clearance.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  10. #10

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    At what point when moving the weight back in 3 point will it increase the tendency for a ground loop?
    Regards, Charlie
    Super Coupe E-AB build in process

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    I have the cub extended gear and AOSS on my Husky. Added fairings to both and gained 8mph. 5 mph for gear fairings, 3mph for AOSS streamlined 'teardrop' fairings.
    Going to add the fairings to my supercub extended gear/AOSS too, should gain some mph back. Probably not as much as on the Husky, but will see.
    John

  12. #12
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    At what point when moving the weight back in 3 point will it increase the tendency for a ground loop?
    Every 1/16"

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  13. #13

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    Folks' recommendations on steps for 3" HD extended gear + 35's
    I will have doors on both sides, so long steps on both sides? Any utility to the welded-in middle steps - maybe for when it's on skis?

    J
    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    A disadvantage of extended gear and/or tall tires is loading people/gear into and out of the plane. Fueling can also be a bit harder depending on the setup. Bit of thread drift, tall tailwheel/spring units also hurt AOA/prop clearance.

    DENNY
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 01-18-2022 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    1 1/4" 3" extended Atlee Dodge gear is 1.8 lbs each side heavier that stock Piper gear from the ones I have weighed. I consider them a must on my airplane for my mission.
    The extended gear moves the CG slightly forward but puts more weight on the tail on landing making a nose over less likely. Also, given the same size tire, getting the tires out of the propwash reduces drag.

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    Harder to see over the nose in the tail down position.Suggest with ABW’s not necessary for normal to moderately rough areas.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Folks' recommendations on steps for 3" HD extended gear + 35's
    I will have doors on both sides, so long steps on both sides? Any utility to the welded-in middle steps - maybe for when it's on skis?

    J
    I like the welded middle step/brace with 35s and 3" Javron gear. Helps in clambering around the 35s. Not 100% sure if I'd do it again?? It makes the gear really resilient but some say the gear should be the weak point.

    For me, more AOA is better. I'm flying on 31s right now and I miss the slower lift offs and touchdowns I get with the 35s. This is a Cub with extra incidence as well. I would want 6" gear if I ran 31s all the time.

    What is your mission?

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1
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  17. #17
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    Long steps for fueling. Mid steps for getting in and out of the plane. Toe steps on the lower shock strut bolt for getting onto 35s. For illustration, TK-1 steps and locations are ideal.

    I have 6” gear and 35s. Sometimes I wish I had 8 or 9” extended, especially for skis.
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  18. #18
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    Acme aero gear 6inClick image for larger version. 

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ID:	59482real nice gear
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  19. #19

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    As far as steps go, I would say you have several things to think about. Stuff like what is your Personal size (long legs or short ones), same questions for passengers, age/flexibility of pilot passenger, front of strut entry or rear of strut, belly pod, fueling, ect. The dodge long step is what everyone thinks of and they work but are a compromise from my standpoint. Front is a bit lower then I prefer for fueling, a high bolt on fuel step or one the uses the front gear bolt is better for me. The rear is a bit high for getting into/out of the back. It works and solves the stock rear step belly pod issue. I would do a very high single step both sides for fueling. A weld on rear step that clears the belly pod door and at a level that a 60 Y/O can step up onto. I like the ideal of a middle step because the kids can just step on that and swing far leg in, pull right knee behind the head and slip in!! Middle step also helps with climbing down from tall gear. Exp is nice just do a test run on gear and tires, stack boxes, steps, what ever around gear to get a the right hight then start welding. I have non skid on my front gear legs and it works great for getting in/out and up to fuel steps.
    DENNY
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Long steps for fueling. Mid steps for getting in and out of the plane. Toe steps on the lower shock strut bolt for getting onto 35s. For illustration, TK-1 steps and locations are ideal.

    I have 6” gear and 35s. Sometimes I wish I had 8 or 9” extended, especially for skis.
    Any thoughts on the Beringer 10” wheel and brake set up? Is it something you looked into during your build?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gntw View Post
    Acme aero gear 6inClick image for larger version. 

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ID:	59482real nice gear
    Are those 31’s? And forward on the gear?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #22
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Any thoughts on the Beringer 10” wheel and brake set up? Is it something you looked into during your build?
    Wouldn’t be bad if you’re not swapping between 6” and 10” wheels.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #23
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Any thoughts on the Beringer 10” wheel and brake set up? Is it something you looked into during your build?
    Never considered them. I wanted to go from 35s to 850s/wheel skis. My Grove brakes and masters work really well. Very pleased after a rough start with Matco masters.

  24. #24
    gntw's Avatar
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    Gear

    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Are those 31’s? And forward on the gear?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    31 standard 6 in gear 6 in Beringer wheels. Brakes are nice. This is a 12 on 6 in gear we did 2 years ago
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Wouldn’t be bad if you’re not swapping between 6” and 10” wheels.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yep. If starting from scratch, the Beringer 10” wheel, brake and master set up is about $1500 more than an Airframes group with Dakota cub masters. Adding a 6” Beringer wheel/brake for 31s is about another $3500 and harder to switch.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gntw View Post
    Acme aero gear 6inClick image for larger version. 

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ID:	59482real nice gear
    Those gear and tires make you look short Dieter.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  27. #27
    gntw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Those gear and tires make you look short Dieter.
    Been the nicest cub we have done so far built carbon fibre interior heated seats javeron wings we assembled I really like an oratec fabric.
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  28. #28

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    Heated seats is a great idea for a northern plane.
    Q: Did you install the resistive heat elements or were they already in the seats? Those look comfortable. Where did you source the seats/cushions?

    Quote Originally Posted by gntw View Post
    Been the nicest cub we have done so far built carbon fibre interior heated seats javeron wings we assembled I really like an oratec fabric.

  29. #29
    gntw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Heated seats is a great idea for a northern plane.
    Q: Did you install the resistive heat elements or were they already in the seats? Those look comfortable. Where did you source the seats/cushions?
    Got elements kits from us seats are done local fire rated leather front and back us real good foam about 1700 us plus elements switches and modules about 200
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  30. #30

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    Same situation I’ll be facing.
    Did you end up with special run lightweight 10” Groves and 6” rotors?
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Never considered them. I wanted to go from 35s to 850s/wheel skis. My Grove brakes and masters work really well. Very pleased after a rough start with Matco masters.

  31. #31
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Grove 6” wheels and ABW 10x6-1/2. Direct swap. No torque plate issues.

  32. #32

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    I have beringer 10” and 6” no issue swapping systems however there is increased costs and you have to bleed brakes.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by vj88 View Post
    I have beringer 10” and 6” no issue swapping systems however there is increased costs and you have to bleed brakes.
    How do the brakes on the Beringer 10” setup compare to the Grove or Cleveland set up? I’ve heard less fading during heavy use. Are they a pain to bleed?

  34. #34
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Brake fade in an airplane? What do you guys do to get brake fade? Try floats and skis. No brakes.

  35. #35

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    Think of cross fit except with an airplane
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  36. #36
    stewartb's Avatar
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    I’ll pass. My brakes work great. I don’t need more than what I have.

  37. #37

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    I know a Cessna guy that was running the 10 inch bushwheel rim with 21 in Desser tires. He was waiting for the Grove/31 inch Desser tire STC to come through. He felt he could use some more brake with the weight of the Cessna.
    DENNY

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    Question

    Interesting - Airframes Alaska extended Cub gear is 3" higher but they do not go forward 3" as some do (e.g. Legend's in-house welded HD gear is a 3" x 3", or TK 1's has options of 2, 4, 6 or 8" height x option of 3" forward).

    For our MOAC build - If I'm not running a heavy engine like the 390 and instead use one of the lighter Titan engines, is there a need for extending gear forward? We'll always have loads in the back and be relatively heavy.

  39. #39
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    Extended gear isn’t 3” or 6” higher. Typically its longer, so for 3” gear the plane is 1-1/2” higher and about 3” wider wheel track. TK-1 measures gear extension by increased length of the struts. With mine a new cabane was required to lower the attachments and I got longer struts. Apparently Javron goes higher without added width. No idea what Acme is doing. The big take-away? There is no standard. To illustrate the point? When I switched from 3” ext Airframes gear to 6” ext TK-1, my spinner tip was 4” further off the floor.

    Is the MOAC standard Cub length? Compiling some W&B numbers from guys with similar airplanes should be easy enough. My tail is heavy in three point so I didn’t want forward gear. Guys with light tails (standard length airframes and big engines) do like it. I think TK also offers 6” forward.
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  40. #40

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    MOAC is standard length fuselage.
    Your point about "standards" seems valid. I have W&B's from two builds - one with a Titan 370 and one with an IO390 - but don't know the gear on each example. I'll find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Extended gear isn’t 3” or 6” higher. Typically its longer, so for 3” gear the plane is 1-1/2” higher and about 3” wider wheel track. TK-1 measures gear extension by increased length of the struts. With mine a new cabane was required to lower the attachments and I got longer struts. Apparently Javron goes higher without added width. No idea what Acme is doing. The big take-away? There is no standard. To illustrate the point? When I switched from 3” ext Airframes gear to 6” ext TK-1, my spinner tip was 4” further off the floor.

    Is the MOAC standard Cub length? Compiling some W&B numbers from guys with similar airplanes should be easy enough. My tail is heavy in three point so I didn’t want forward gear. Guys with light tails (standard length airframes and big engines) do like it. I think TK also offers 6” forward.

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