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Backcountry Engine Preheat

slowmover said:
For those of you that use a 1000W generator, do you carry a separate fuel supply for it? Or does the tank hold enough for normal use? Does it burn 100LL? Or are you running car gas in your plane?

Great thread!
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Contrary to others experience I run my Honda 1000s and 2000s on 100LL almost exclusively and never had a problem. Same goes for my snowmachines, chainsaws, outboard motors, weedwhackers or whatever. I just got back from 12 days at my cabin, ran Honda 1000 probably 3-4 hours a day with temps down to -25, just purrs on 100LL. My Arctic Cat 570 fan Bearcat has 5800 miles on it and never had a drop of auto fuel in it other than the first tank from dealer in 2010. I see no need to have anything other than 100LL at cabin cause I’ve never had any issues with it, and auto fuel has terrible shelf life and all sorts of additives that I have no need for. Bring a small 1 gallon can so you can drain 100LL from plane and fill Honda. Usually can get 2 preheats per full tank on 1000i.


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Stewart I think really makes the best point: Each situation may have a different system to work best.

In a couple of years I hope to be parking inside a warm hangar. That is best. But once I take to the sky and head to Juneau, well, if I get stuck because of daylight or snow I will need a way to heat up- having a Reiff would be great!

Heading out on the trap line for the day, or heading down for a deer hunt for the morning, even in the Maule, carrying a gen set is not on the top of my list of things I want to be doing, or really have space for- just a day trip right? Well, when that day trip turns into an overnight, I really like having that third or fourth option. This is where the Catalytic heater works great, or as a back up to that my camp stove as a remote 'get me out of here'! The camp stove with some scat and a sheet metal reducer to cover it will heat just fine- even more simple than the ammo can.

Admittedly, propane and butane does not work well in severe cold. If that is my preheat, I have been known to put the bottle in my sleeping bag or tent to keep warm until I need it. I keep the propane on the floor of the plane by my seat to warm up with cabin heat. Once the engine compartment heats up with the catalytic heater, it keeps the bottle warm so flows just fine with no flame. On low my heater will run 24 hours with some to spare.

No one answer will work all the time. Even MSR stoves will fail, if pre-heat is mandatory, have more than one method when remote.
 
Agreed. Two is one and one is none.
Carry or have available redundant capability. I have the Honda genset + Reiff, but have available at camp a different, gas-based solution in case the genset dies. That MSR stove + pipe section is always there.

aktango58 said:
Stewart I think really makes the best point: Each situation may have a different system to work best.

In a couple of years I hope to be parking inside a warm hangar. That is best. But once I take to the sky and head to Juneau, well, if I get stuck because of daylight or snow I will need a way to heat up- having a Reiff would be great!

Heading out on the trap line for the day, or heading down for a deer hunt for the morning, even in the Maule, carrying a gen set is not on the top of my list of things I want to be doing, or really have space for- just a day trip right? Well, when that day trip turns into an overnight, I really like having that third or fourth option. This is where the Catalytic heater works great, or as a back up to that my camp stove as a remote 'get me out of here'! The camp stove with some scat and a sheet metal reducer to cover it will heat just fine- even more simple than the ammo can.

Admittedly, propane and butane does not work well in severe cold. If that is my preheat, I have been known to put the bottle in my sleeping bag or tent to keep warm until I need it. I keep the propane on the floor of the plane by my seat to warm up with cabin heat. Once the engine compartment heats up with the catalytic heater, it keeps the bottle warm so flows just fine with no flame. On low my heater will run 24 hours with some to spare.

No one answer will work all the time. Even MSR stoves will fail, if pre-heat is mandatory, have more than one method when remote.
Click to expand...
 
23675069_1974919939412774_1012950419110339287_o.jpg

My Alaska experience is limited, and dated: 2000-2004 when I was stationed there. At the time I preheated this SuperCub with this Northern Companion and I thought that was a really good set up. Then the next year I got a spot with electricity and put a Reiff on... now I was really cooking. Nobody that I can recall at that time was discussing carrying around a generator.

I suppose what amazes me, and what I find really cool, is the continuous innovation and improvements in the old airplanes many of us are flying. Preheat is just one example... bushwheels, better avionics, thrust mod, VGs, satellite communication. And many more.
 

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slowmover said:
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My Alaska experience is limited, and dated: 2000-2004 when I was stationed there. At the time I preheated this SuperCub with this Northern Companion and I thought that was a really good set up. Then the next year I got a spot with electricity and put a Reiff on... now I was really cooking. Nobody that I can recall at that time was discussing carrying around a generator.

I suppose what amazes me, and what I find really cool, is the continuous innovation and improvements in the old airplanes many of us are flying. Preheat is just one example... bushwheels, better avionics, thrust mod, VGs, satellite communication. And many more.
Click to expand...

First, Thanks for your service.
Second, if I went out to the airport and saw my plane looking like that I'de go home put my pj's back on, climb back into bed, curl up in the fetal position and cry myself to sleep.:cry:
 
40m said:
First, Thanks for your service.
Second, if I went out to the airport and saw my plane looking like that I'de go home put my pj's back on, climb back into bed, curl up in the fetal position and cry myself to sleep.:cry:
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Gee Glenn, our best flying up here is when the plane looks like that in the morning.

Broom off the frost, clean the windows and store covers while preheating, then light her off and have a great day!
 
Unfortunately, this won’t work for long when it gets truly cold. Even the mountaineering blends don’t function well in -20 temps, even when you store them in your sleeping bag. White gas stoves are more reliable in those circumstances.

Colorguns said:
View attachment 33248View attachment 33249View attachment 33250View attachment 33251
Coleman, This fits in a small box. I put screws in the cap to hold it up off the burner so air can filter up. Dryer hose. Heats fast and with a cowl cover on does great. May find minor changes as you go along with it.

Doug
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Since we now live in a world of cheap Li-ion power banks, has anyone tried using their plug-in pre heater with one of the larger banks (essentially something 500w or more)?


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Eferr said:
Since we now live in a world of cheap Li-ion power banks, has anyone tried using their plug-in pre heater with one of the larger banks (essentially something 500w or more)?


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Click to expand...

Ummm, those installed heaters by Reiff or Tanis pull what? 750 Watts continuous? And, depending on temps, you’re gonna run that thing for up to an hour or more?

I hope you’re flying a Boeing to carry the “jump pack”.

MTV
 
That was a cute reply. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the standard Reif on a 4-banger only pull 300w? Might be able to squeeze 2 hrs preheat. At ~16 lbs for a unit that size, doesn’t seem like an unrealistic question to pose to the group.


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Having used a battery bank and solar panels for a couple of decades? We avoid using appliances that make heat from electricity. It sucks the batteries down faster than anything. Coffee makers, blow dryers, etc. No bueno. And we have near 1600aH of storage.
 
Eferr said:
That was a cute reply. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the standard Reif on a 4-banger only pull 300w? Might be able to squeeze 2 hrs preheat. At ~16 lbs for a unit that size, doesn’t seem like an unrealistic question to pose to the group.


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Click to expand...

These systems pull a lot of power. I guessed high, but Reiff states 750 continuous watts for their high heat model, which is what I’ve used.

MTV
 
stewartb said:
Having used a battery bank and solar panels for a couple of decades? We avoid using appliances that make heat from electricity. It sucks the batteries down faster than anything. Coffee makers, blow dryers, etc. No bueno. And we have near 1600aH of storage.
Click to expand...

28 years off grid taught me that also! The battery packs are not quite there yet, good as there are. What we (pilots and ebikers, I'm both) is a high quality (reliable.....) SMALL gen set, 500 watt max and maybe 350 continuous, that weighs about 15-18 pounds. The small Yamaha/Hondas are great, but still too big, I don't want to pack my 27 pound Yammer around just to run my 200 watts of heat pads on the Rotax. This issue has come up repeatedly in ebike forums, enough that someone with a large fortune could probably make it a small fortune by coming up with some such animal. Not a big enough market to make it worthwhile, too bad.
 
As stated above, electricity to heat means a big power draw.

It's a math problem. Find out the continuous draw of the heating element in amps. Compare this to the amp hour rating of the battery. An easy example would be a heater that draws .25 amps, connected to a 1 amp hour battery. The battery should power the heater for four hours.

Web
 
Part of the problem is converting 12v power to push a 700 watt @ 120vac appliance. A few years ago I bought a 12v heat pad intended for airplane engines. That pad puts out the heat but would it last long enough with a typical battery to heat an engine? No idea.
 
wireweinie said:
It's a math problem. Find out the continuous draw of the heating element in amps. Compare this to the amp hour rating of the battery. An easy example would be a heater that draws .25 amps, connected to a 1 amp hour battery. The battery should power the heater for four hours.
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. Battery capacity is usually specified for a specific discharge rate, typically C/10. Discharging at higher currents will significantly reduce the capacity.
 
Much obliged to the collective wisdom. It seems like the scat/duct and backpacking stove is going to be my plan for now. I am going to install the safe-heet sump warmer since KEUL rarely goes subzero. When you folks are preheating in the sticks, is it generally more than a 2-3 hour affair? Say at 0°F ambient.


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Gabe is going to give me crap about this but if you have a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT you will know what the engine temp is and how long you have to heat (oil temp is a required gauge). With an engine blanket 3 hours should be good Lycoming says you only need preheat below 10 degrees.
DENNY
 
Has anyone combined jump packs in series to create a 48V system? 12V wont do much but 48V DC or even 72V DC (locomotives) are fun to work with and open new opportunities. Plenty of 48V heating elements around. 72V DC is only fun until there's smoke.
 
Had an old to timer tell me once heating with electrics is a dead short. Well we know not really but you get the idea.
it takes a lot of electricity to do what a little gas will do. With the gensets you are still using gas to make electricity to make heat. When you could skip all the engine and generator/electrical stuff to get heat.
But the gensets “may” be safer, a lot of extra hardware for safety. All that said I live WAY down south.
 
wireweinie said:
Yep. It's called the amp hour rating.
Click to expand...

Yes but the specified capacity, expressed in amp hours, is only the capacity for a specific discharge current. That current is typically one tenth of the capacity (C/10) so a 1 AH battery may provide 0.1 A for 10 hours but it probably will not provide 0.25 A for 4 hours.

Battery data sheets usually provide a family of curves showing capacity for different discharge rates. Probably worth a look for anyone thinking of using a battery powered heater.
 
I was told once you discharge a battery a few times below 25% it will never regain its original full capacity.
something else to consider if correct.
 
Depends what the battery was designed to do. Car starting batteries are different compared to deep cycle batteries and both are different than solar system batteries. A guy could probably use battery power to preheat but the battery wouldn’t be very portable. Floor scrubber batteries come to mind. They’re built for a long, steady discharge. They’re big, heavy, and are 6v so you’d need 2 of them. A 1000w generator is a much better choice.
 
DENNY said:
Gabe is going to give me crap about this but if you have a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT you will know what the engine temp is and how long you have to heat (oil temp is a required gauge). With an engine blanket 3 hours should be good Lycoming says you only need preheat below 10 degrees.
DENNY
Click to expand...

Denny, I’ve never relied on CHT instruments as an indicator of sufficiently warm engine to start during pre heat for the simple reason that cylinder heads are designed to dissipate heat. That implies that they’ll also GAIN heat fairly quickly as well.

But, when pre heating a cold engine, what I want to accomplish is to get the CORE of that engine: the crankshaft and its oil bath and system, warm enough. Cylinders warm fast, but it takes a while to get that inner core warm enough to play safely.

My policy regarding pre heat is “Longer is better”.

As to Lycomings recommendation of starting as cold as -10 F without pre heat: That is indeed Lycoming’s recommendation. I’ve always viewed that as an absolute emergency case, though. There have been a couple times I was out somewhere in deep cold, and parked too long, where my engine MAY have got that cold, and I started it anyway. The alternative was sleeping out there at -30. I’ve done that too, and it’s less fun than I prefer.

But in those cases, the engine core is likely warmer than the rest of the engine. Not sure that’s a legitimate “excuse” but….

That said, there’s no way I’d go the the airport on a 10 degree morning, fire up an unheated engine and go fly.

But then, there was the Fort Yukon preacher who apparently never preheated……

MTV
 
stewartb said:
Depends what the battery was designed to do. Car starting batteries are different compared to deep cycle batteries and both are different than solar system batteries. A guy could probably use battery power to preheat but the battery wouldn’t be very portable. Floor scrubber batteries come to mind. They’re built for a long, steady discharge. They’re big, heavy, and are 6v so you’d need 2 of them. A 1000w generator is a much better choice.
Click to expand...

Generator is the best choice for sure. However since we have rabbit trailed talking batteries, I just purchased new silicone gel batteries for my cabin solar energy system. These are the only batteries I’ve ever heard of that go to 100% full discharge, and recharge normally. In fact the manufacturer warranty is for 10,000 discharges to 100% discharge for 5 years. Of course that’s not normal use, typical discharge levels are less than 50% or less. Also these are rated for -40F storage with less than %5 loss of storage and start taking charge far below 0°F. As a testimonial of performance, the Alaska Railroad is changing out all batteries system wide to these. You can buy from pilot Kirk at Susitna Energy in Anchorage. www.siliconebatteries.ca


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Scooter7779h said:
Generator is the best choice for sure. However since we have rabbit trailed talking batteries, I just purchased new silicone gel batteries for my cabin solar energy system. These are the only batteries I’ve ever heard of that go to 100% full discharge, and recharge normally. In fact the manufacturer warranty is for 10,000 discharges to 100% discharge for 5 years. Of course that’s not normal use, typical discharge levels are less than 50% or less. Also these are rated for -40F storage with less than %5 loss of storage and start taking charge far below 0°F. As a testimonial of performance, the Alaska Railroad is changing out all batteries system wide to these. You can buy from pilot Kirk at Susitna Energy in Anchorage. www.siliconebatteries.ca


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Click to expand...

Interesting!

MTV
 
Not much capacity in the 6 volt models. And I wonder what they consider 100% discharge. Probably around 11.5 volts? Cool technology at any rate.

My Rolls Surette 6v batteries have approx 800 aH of storage so with 4 in series-parallel I get approx 1600aH at 12v. Both inverters I've used have built-in 100 amp+ chargers so require a 6kw generator to recharge in the dark months. Managing a smaller system would make recharging easier but frequency of recharges greater. Pick your poison, I guess.
 
Hey Scooter
Do you know anyone that's used them for an extended time? Like a year or more? If so, what was their impressions?

Web
 
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