PA12 recover from hail damage

Well the insurance company decided to fix and not total our non flapped PA12. (We had a nice replacement ready to go in Iowa if it was totaled)

Dan at HO Aircraft in ANE is doing the recover. Got it to the shop and uncovered. Wings were in better than expected shape but the fuselage not so much. Dan says about 10k in welding to make it right and thinks a new fuselage might be the way to go.

This fuselage is just the basic PA12 for the most part. Things we would like are the GW increase, extended baggage, gull wing or two piece door, X brace, 18 gear. Don't want to go too crazy and turn a 60k Pa12 into something we can't afford. The recover estimate was 40k.

We are thinking of putting on Oratex since it will live outside all summer.

If we buy a new fuselage, where and what mods? I talked to Charlie Center about the gross wt mod and 18 gear when we bought it. He suggested a new fuselage vs fixing a 70yr old one.

Any advice from the gallery would be appreciated.




Jake


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app

Sell it. Buy one flying

How would that work with the insurance?


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

C130jake said:

How would that work with the insurance?


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

Click to expand...

If you don't have a lender on the 12. They pay you, you sell the aircraft then rinse and repeat as necessary.

Since they wouldn't total it, do they pay the estimate on the recover? We own the aircraft outright (no loan). Still not sure how the insurance works.


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

Wow, it like Deju vu all over again. I was in your shoes just 5 short years ago and tomorrow I do my first ground run of a fresh overhauled engine. hoping to fly sometime next week. Same shoes without an insurance claim I should say. I was faced with the same numbers on the fuselage and went with a factory new one from Univair, I am happy with it and haven't had a single regret once I wrote the check. Univair and Airframe AK are the only suppliers of PMA'd fuselages I am aware of. prices are similar when you factor in freight from AK.

Univair happily added all of my old fuselage mod's that I had log book or 337's for in the new build and were great to work with on new STC's. Give me a PM if you'd like the gory details. I was worried the gross weight STC would add lots of pounds but it didn't really. The swing up door was a no cost option and a new door comes with the fuselage either way. The 'x' brace is now standard. The pa-14 cathedral is a must in my mind. The borer extended baggage not so much, especially for the only 25# or so it can hold, and it requires rerouting the elevator cables and changing out the torque tube bell crank set up. The cut out, squaring off on the bottom rear part of the door would have been nice but it needs to be ordered from the start as it affects fuselage tubes near the door and I didn't learn of it til later, I think Charlie Center has that STC and univair can install it. Lots of discussions here on old threads about the pros and cons of all of the mods.

there's definitely something to be said for the piece of mind that a new fuselage brings over a 70 year old one made of mild steel. But Mike has a very good point about the cost effectiveness of the entire endeavor, I did all of the work on mine myself, under the supervision of a couple of IA's, I figured nothing for my 1500 or so hours of labor and I am near the under water point of breaking even, but then again what else would I have done with the last 5 years of my life.

C130jake said:

Since they wouldn't total it, do they pay the estimate on the recover? We own the aircraft outright (no loan). Still not sure how the insurance works.


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

Click to expand...

Yes they can either pay the shop or pay you the total on the claim.

There's a greater expense to a new airframe than the price of that airframe. Nothing from your old plane will fit the new one. That means new floors, new interior, new panel, etc. Probably all new pulleys, cables, and hardware. New instruments and switches. May as well add a few mods while you're at it. Your $60K PA-12 could easily exceed $100K to put back together. What's your insurance going to pay and how much are you willing to add to it? Any way you slice it your insurance settlement is not going to grow but your rebuild costs will. You and your partners need to have a serious budget meeting.

Paul on this site has a new fuselage. I have fixed a lot of fuselages that were wrecked for less than $10K, I take it the frame is rotted out?

In a few spots. Right rear float fitting was almost gone. Seaplane grommets on bottom of fuselage were never opened up.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SuperCub.Org mobile app

I might have just what you need for your rebuild and for a lot less.

Steve Pierce said:

Paul on this site has a new fuselage. I have fixed a lot of fuselages that were wrecked for less than $10K, I take it the frame is rotted out?

Click to expand...

That was my thinking too. One can do a fair amount of welding for 10k.

R. JOHNSON said:

That was my thinking too. One can do a fair amount of welding for 10k.

Click to expand...

What is the resale value of a new frame pa12 vs an original rehabbed fuselage? It's not like you are rebuilding a flight of passage cub......

Paul, give me a call. I sent a PM with my number.

Thanks


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

I would pay 5-10 grand more knowing it had a new fuselage. A good fabric job will last 30 years. How long before the next issue shows up on the 70 year old rebuild. Stewartb brings up a excellent point. MOREBETTERDISEASE fever is a real thing. It all depends on how many changes you want to make. I think the bottom line is what is the mission for this plane? What are the chances if it getting bent in the next 10 years? If it is a trainer I would sell it and buy the other one.
DENNY

If you're building a plane to sell you'd probably choose to repair the old airframe. If you're building it to keep you'll probably favor the new airframe, especially if you're doing lots of structural mods. The market for highly modified -12s must be good because we see more and more of them getting built. I'll be interested to see how Airframes' three place Supercub changes the tricked out -12 market.

behindpropellers said:

What is the resale value of a new frame pa12 vs an original rehabbed fuselage? It's not like you are rebuilding a flight of passage cub......

Click to expand...

Chris "But I want to sit in the same seat as Rinker Buck."
Cathy "We can weld the seat into a new fuselage."

I have repaired a lot of frames over the years and would have no issues with any of them. The only time I have seen a tube corrode from the inside was when there was a hole somewhere. The problems I see are external corrosion. Sand blasting, epoxy priming and catalyzed polyurethane is far superior. The project will snowball regardless if you buy a new fuselage or not. You have to determine if you are ready for a rebuild project full of surprises. I would blast the frame before making the decision.

Jake

If you do sell it, give me a call. I just finished this one and mightbe ready to start on a new one. I paid 25k for this one and threw another 40k at it not including my 1000+ hours of labor.

$100k would d be a good estimate with all outside labor

The selling point of a new fuselage versus a 70 year old one is a good point. on a 12 no 2 parts tend to fit from another one, and after you repair and straighten your fuselage you will still have parts that are not fitting right. I think the new fuselages out there can come equipped with the mods you would like to add. welding of tabs for baggage, and some other mods will still be required. Best advice is to work with a competent IA that knows the 12. Mine is ready to roll out of the shop after an 18 month rebuild. Test flight this week, I hope. Expect to be without a plane for at least 18 months, unless you buy something to use as a fill in (by the way I have a J5 for sale now that could fit your needs:lol.
Once done you should be happy with the results, and have a family plane for life.
I would treat the insurance settlement as a good down payment and get started if you want the plane to your specs, or else buy one flying that is close enough to what you want.

Steve

deetz said:

The selling point of a new fuselage versus a 70 year old one is a good point. on a 12 no 2 parts tend to fit from another one, and after you repair and straighten your fuselage you will still have parts that are not fitting right. I think the new fuselages out there can come equipped with the mods you would like to add. welding of tabs for baggage, and some other mods will still be required. Best advice is to work with a competent IA that knows the 12. Mine is ready to roll out of the shop after an 18 month rebuild. Test flight this week, I hope. Expect to be without a plane for at least 18 months, unless you buy something to use as a fill in (by the way I have a J5 for sale now that could fit your needs:lol.
Once done you should be happy with the results, and have a family plane for life.
I would treat the insurance settlement as a good down payment and get started if you want the plane to your specs, or else buy one flying that is close enough to what you want.

Steve
View attachment 32682

Click to expand...

deetz, just out of curiosity wha'd it weigh?

We sold the salvage and got a new 12. It needed some bracing on the left side for floats. No bill yet but it flew great yesterday.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Ask me next week. still have to get the AB 31" wheels on.

STeve

I saw that one getting worked on at Seaplane Services, it's a nice PA12!

sub3 said:

I saw that one getting worked on at Seaplane Services, it's a nice PA12!

Click to expand...

When Bob says it's a great airplane, it must be. He figured a way to add the seaplane bracing and not destroy the left side. Apparently, just adding the float fittings isn't enough. Bob has the blueprints for the PA12. Lucky for us. Now to finish SES before iceup.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

If that plane still has the bungee truss, I have an actual PA-12 float brace off a project. Fits on the left side. No welding or cutting required. It's shown in the drawings. Let me know. You still want the cd back?

You could send the CD to Noland on here. He is doing the rebuild. The new 12 has 18 gear hence the need for the brace.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Glad to see Tom with a big smile. Do you mean it didn't have the tube from the front left spar attach down to the left landing gear fitting. I thought it was there.

180Marty said:

Glad to see Tom with a big smile. Do you mean it didn't have the tube from the front left spar attach down to the left landing gear fitting. I thought it was there.

Click to expand...

Correct. Bob Timm had to do some clever engineering to add the bracing. Haven't seen the bill yet. [emoji15]

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

First lesson on the old floats and new PA12. Worked on glassy water landings and takeoffs. Fun!


Sent from my SM-G930V using SuperCub.Org mobile app