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Thread: Transitioning from Supercub to C180

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    cafi19's Avatar
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    Transitioning from Supercub to C180

    Hi Folks,

    Before we head off for the west in another couple of weeks, SJ wants me flying the 180. I will admit to being slightly intimidated by it.....it's a beast.

    Any advice for me besides right rudder, right rudder, right rudder.....that is already going through my head.

    Thanks!

    cafi
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    Think further ahead. Start slowing down sooner especially. Get familiar with pattern speeds, stick to them, and landings will be uneventful. I like to enter downwind at 85 before pulling flaps. 75 on base, 65 on final slowing to 60 over the threshold. The biggest "error" that I see is people fly the pattern too fast and too flat. Get used to a steeper final. Landings will come easier, winds will be easier to manage.
    Last edited by stewartb; 05-25-2017 at 04:50 PM.
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Hi Folks,

    Before we head off for the west in another couple of weeks, SJ wants me flying the 180. I will admit to being slightly intimidated by it.....it's a beast.

    Any advice for me besides right rudder, right rudder, right rudder.....that is already going through my head.

    Thanks!

    cafi
    Mount a few Gopros so we can enjoy it with you

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Never have flown a C180 but a friend of mine who wrecked his said his mistake was not committing to a wheel or 3 point landing.
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    Never have flown a C180 but a friend of mine who wrecked his said his mistake was not committing to a wheel or 3 point landing.
    X2 Commit to one style of landing at a time. Change your mind halfway and it will bite you. Get your wheel landings down and they will become enjoyable and an excellent tool in your flying toolbox. Oh yeah, right rudder, right rudder....
    "Always looking up"
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    cJust remember that Jerrie Mock, a housewife from Ohio, flew a 180 around the world in 1964. Solo. 1000 pounds over gross on most every takeoff. With wore out brakes because the new parts didn't arrive in time. She handled crosswinds-big ones. She did just fine. If she could fly one, you can fly one, too. She wasn't intimidated. You should not be intimidated, either. jrh
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    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    Remember you're not sitting in the middle but slightly to the side, and need to look straight ahead, not ahead of the center of the cowling like in a Cub. It's also a bit weird to fly with your left hand on the controls rather than the right. Its also useful to sit in the plane for a long time and be certain which control is which - Throttle, Mixture, Prop to where you don't have to look and think about which is which.
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    Do you have any constant speed time? Cowl flaps? If not those will add new items to your routine. Not a big deal but don't expect to be perfect or smooth in the beginning. It'll all become second nature. I suspect your flight instructor will coach you through it and hopefully take you on date night to celebrate your quick transition.
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  9. #9
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Remember you're not sitting in the middle but slightly to the side,
    Before the 180, most of my time was in the PA12. Still remember giving my Mom a ride and I wheeled it on and we headed to the left. Mom said "couldn't you tell we were crooked?"
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    A wise instructor once told me a few things that stuck.

    It will I'll do everything a Cub will do but you have to ask it first, meaning you have to get ahead of the airplane.

    When you give it a shot of power on final remember to take it back, with the big engine and prop a little burst goes along way.

    If it isn't trimmed neutral on final you're not going to land well, with the big engine you'll run out of elevator to flare if it is'nt trimmed.


    The speeds and timing for slowing down listed previously are spot on.

    The MAF landing procedure includes one piece of really good advice that I haven't seen anywhere else. With a stabilized 500fpm approach, trimmed neutral, and a tad bit of power in to get 60 over the fence just ease the yoke back and count to three to 3 to reduce the decent rate and slow up a bit more and then release the back pressure and it will wheel land amayzingly well most every time. You can modify that for a great 3-point by flaring and pulling power just after you arrest the decent rate.

    Once on the ground dump the flaps and keep flying it until you're stopped or the dust settles.

    On take off, and especially in the event of a go-around SLOWLY push the throttle in.

    Have fun and go tame that beast!
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 05-25-2017 at 11:36 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    Ruffair's Avatar
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    That pesky "P" factor, along with the gyroscope effect when the tail comes up is more pronounced, takes lots of rudder.

    And its a real trim airplane. Takes a lot of trimming going around the pattern. Will wear one out with a lot of pattern work / touch n goes.

    All things that you will adapt to, learn new skills... and overcome.

    It IS FUN. You will Love it....!
    "...We're fast enough to get there, But slow enough to see..."
    Fron the song "Barometer Soup". By Jimmy Buffett
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    when in doubt: Blame SJ. then forgive him so you can blame him again....rinse, repeat
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    I guess the above is good advice, learn the basics and a stardard profile. Then understand the different. Land fast in every configuration. Try the downwind landing. Start a three point and change to a wheel landing and the otherwise. Approach and land out of trim. Land in a crosswind, taxi in a bigger crosswind then takeoff. Fly heavy, act cg, forward cg. Fly light real light. Fly different power settings in cruise, climb, decent, approach. Do everything right and learn how to do everything wrong. Use a checklist.
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    On such a long trip with the big engine and little tanks you'll get lots of take off and landing practice.

    I usually take off with two notches of flaps unless a X-wind then just one with ailerons into it plus I hold it on a few extra ticks on the airspeed and if a BIG X-wind no flaps and a good bit more extra speed as that really helps avoid a nasty yaw into the wind after lift off and for stupid X-winds cut the angle down by cheating from one side of the runway to the other.

    For X-wind landings less flaps proportionally... and get rid of them quick!
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 05-26-2017 at 07:40 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    My first experience with a 180 was picking one up in Vero Beach, going out IFR with coffee grinder radios. I had side by side experience, a thousand hours in a J-3 and maybe 50 in a Stinson. It went ok.

    I love the 180. I have never had one weather vane after liftoff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post

    I love the 180. I have never had one weather vane after liftoff.
    Trust me when I say it's not a pleasant experience... hadn't had mine long and on a full load trip with the family and a big X-wind at Merridian Mississippi my pea brain said "the sooner you get it flying the better"...NOT!
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    I did have one takeoff in a very strong crosswind that actually required braking during the takeoff roll. No weathervaning after liftoff. In fact, I have never had an aircraft weathervane while flying. Just lucky, I guess.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffair View Post
    ..... pattern work / touch n goes....!
    Touch n goes. Not recommended in a 180/185, particularly for an inexperienced 180/185 pilot. Flaps need to be repositioned, Elevator trim needs to be set for take off, Rudder trim (if installed) needs to be set for take off, prop control needs to be verified full forward (you did reset it before landing?), all of this while maintaining directional control which requires looking outside. I've never met you Cafi, from your pictures you appear to be a short person so you could have some difficulty reaching things like the trims. This will involve bending over and loosing your sight picture outside. No do NOT do touch and goes. A 180/185 take off and landing, starts and stops from a dead stop which includes transitioning from a taxi.
    N1PA
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Fly 45 minutes to an hour everyday.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I did have one takeoff in a very strong crosswind that actually required braking during the takeoff roll. No weathervaning after liftoff. In fact, I have never had an aircraft weathervane while flying. Just lucky, I guess.
    I may be the only idiot capable of letting one do it, but big engine and prop + big left X-wind and it will run out of rudder until you get more flow over it.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 05-26-2017 at 07:48 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Really good stuff here, you have helped her transition instructor remember a lot of things that need to be covered

    Cafi19 is a really good pilot, she flew the super cub beautifully yesterday and can do the same in the 180 - a big part of it is believing that you can do it - I have no doubt!

    Thanks!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    One of the differences between the cub and a 180/185 is that the cub responds to pretty light control inputs. The Cessnas require you to be, shall we say, somewhat definitive with control inputs. You need to make the airplane do what you want it to do, and "nudges" on the controls aren't going to make it.

    Dont be afraid to use the controls....all of them, and if things seem to be getting a bit out of hand, don't be afraid to use differential braking.

    Process is really all the same, but you're dealing with more mass and more velocity on the ground, so definitive control inputs will prevent it from getting too busy.

    Great airplanes, in any case.

    MTV
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    My little bit of 180 time was fun but that big adjustable stab has got to be respected, get out of trim and you've got a tiger buy the tail.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    My little bit of 180 time was fun but that big adjustable stab has got to be respected, get out of trim and you've got a tiger buy the tail.

    Glenn
    Glen is saying that if the trim is in the wrong spot and you give it the go juice your rear will likely be eating the seat cushions...

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    cafi19's Avatar
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    Ok....got it. Think ahead of the airplane, trim, positive action on the controls, commit to landing type....right rudder, right rudder, right rudder....oh...and update my profile so I do look so short.

    Here is the confessional part....although I have loads of seat time in planes....I only have about 300tt myself (since 1992...ugh...don't ask....long boring story). So not long on confidence. I have flown 180s before...most of that time was on floats though...different deal...IMO. Here we go. Will report back.

    cafi

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    jimboflying's Avatar
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    I found it to be more nimble than expected.

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    Cafi,

    You'll transition in a lightly loaded airplane in good weather. You have nothing to worry about except spraining your smile muscles. I want to hear what YOU think after a flight or two.

    Enjoy it. You're in for some fun!

    SB

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    I have entered partnership in a 180C and also have some issues with landing. It took a few hours to get used to the constant speed prop, Now my main issue is keeping the plane straight on final and when to flair. I have spent the last month with the cub doing STOL training almost every day so technique is a lot different then the Cessna or even normal cub landing. Things that have helped with the cessna so me so far are as follows.
    1. I stopped wearing hiking boots (normal use in the cub), and went to low quarter shoes, so I am not accidentally hitting the brakes.
    2. We picked up some adjustable seats. Three pilots ranging from 5 ft one inch to 6 ft 3 inches. Had to use various cushions to make it work for the two short ones.
    3. Keeping plane straight was done by concentrating on the end of the runway, I put my nose on the center line of runway and align with yoke shaft. Seems simple but something I don't worry about that much in the cub.
    4. Sight picture on approach seems like I am diving to the runway and very fast, even at 60 mph (too much cub time at 40 mph on approach) I tend to flare too hard at the end also. This is stuff that is getting better. A few more hours with someone holding my hand and life will be good. Once STOL stuff is done in a few weeks I can concentrate on the Cessna.
    5. One of the major issues is the DOB on my drivers license.

    On a side note about instructors. I have had 3 very good ones that have been very patient with me but none of them fly the same!! Each one like to push this, pull that, and turn it up/down at different times so I can now feel confident that pretty much no matter what I do the plane will fly just fine!! One of my instructors noted that the Cessna 180/185 aircraft where like Supermodels, They look hot, They like to go fast, and They are a lot of fun to play with! BUT!! Every now and then the coke habit comes out and they try to kill ya!!

    Hang in there
    DENNY
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    When I owned a partnership in a 185, one of the partners printed up a landing technique used by the Missionaries (I forget their real name) in Asia. I read the instructions many times before going up in the airplane and doing exactly what they said. Every attempted landing resulted in a disastrous bounce and a lot of wrangling to get it back under control. After several flights and several failed attempts, I realized that I had missed the follow up addendum to the instructions that corrected an editing mistake!

    Since I was never particularly good in the 185, I can't offer advice other than to practice. Ultimately, it is just an airplane, just make sure you are flying it and not the other way around. Our had an R/Stol stc that made it a handful in a cross wind.
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  30. #30
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Cafi, A LOT of great advice here. But let us not complicate this transition.

    1. Mental checklist. NOT a card or placard to find, hold, read, and take action from. Your instructor will provide an appropriate acronym for your checklist items and actions.

    2. Like any airplane.....the pilot must provide input that the a/c needs. No more, no less. It is not "right rudder" over and over. It is "right rudder as needed", and pitch as needed, etc., etc.

    These are sweet airplanes! They are lovely!

    There are things that must be learned. You will learn! You will love it!

    By the way. Cafis is NOT short. She is above average height for the US female population.
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    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Laura,

    I went from a J3 to a 180 last year. It's intimidating, but you'll get it in no time. I'm still trying to figger out what all them knobs do. And the steering wheel in the middle of all your instruments - what's up with that?

  32. #32
    cafi19's Avatar
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    Ok...back from my first "lesson." It was a good one for me. While I don't mind the offset seat from the center line....I DO think it was messing me up a bit. We did some slowish flight and etc in the air then flew the approaches and flew the center line down the run way. It really was a perfect day...very light crosswind. I certainly will need lots more time....but this was a great start...didn't scare the crap out of myself and look forward to tomorrow when we will go up again.

    One other thing that was kind of a pain was getting used to where everything is in this plane. Even though I have lots of time sitting in it...flying it and paying attention to where everything is situated is a bid different. Lots more stuff to look at too in that one.

    Oh yeah....trim, trim, trim....or maybe some weight training is in order.

    Thanks all for the input and encouragement!!! It is all good stuff and has me thinking lots.

    cafi
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    She is really quite tall...
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  34. #34
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
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    She is really quite tall...
    It's just that she's seen standing next to you

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  35. #35
    cafi19's Avatar
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    Such a lovely picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
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    She is really quite tall...
    and she's got a wicked pie throwing arm!
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 05-26-2017 at 06:18 PM.
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    pzinck's Avatar
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    Only time the 185 scared me a little was on my little strip. Had full flaps and everything going good. 3 deer popped in front of me fairly close and I crammed the throttle. With all them flaps and Robertson stol and trimmed too far back she took all I had to hold the yoke forward so she didn't stall. Trim, trim, trim. Didn't realize how quick that ol girl could yard the nose skyward, really surprised me.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzinck View Post
    Only time the 185 scared me a little was on my little strip. Had full flaps and everything going good. 3 deer popped in front of me fairly close and I crammed the throttle. With all them flaps and Robertson stol and trimmed too far back she took all I had to hold the yoke forward so she didn't stall. Trim, trim, trim. Didn't realize how quick that ol girl could yard the nose skyward, really surprised me.
    Had a similar circumstance once .So much pressure required to hold the stick forward could not take one hand of the wheel to trim.
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  39. #39

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    Cafi19, there's no dirt in a 180; never had one get away from me. I transitioned from Taylorcraft and Cubs to 180 without any 180 time. It's a long story. Had to get it off the lot before the sheriff pad-locked the dealer. Then make a near-night landing at uncontrolled airport 50 miles away, taking off Toronto International and landing Hamilton. Your time in Cubs is all you need. On the confidence part, think of it as if you're approaching a cranky horse, pretending you're the boss, no foolishness from you, you sob. Do a three-pointer as you've been doing. Stay right on top of it. You'll find it's a pussycat.
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  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pzinck View Post
    Only time the 185 scared me a little was on my little strip. Had full flaps and everything going good. 3 deer popped in front of me fairly close and I crammed the throttle. With all them flaps and Robertson stol and trimmed too far back she took all I had to hold the yoke forward so she didn't stall. Trim, trim, trim. Didn't realize how quick that ol girl could yard the nose skyward, really surprised me.
    Anyone who flies a 180-185 should be trained for that, but not in the first few hours. Normal landing at 40* flaps to a full stop followed by a full throttle takeoff without retracting flaps or adjusting the trim. Be prepared to push hard to keep the nose down to maintain airspeed. It's what you need to expect in real life when you're forced to go around. No big deal as long as you know it's coming.
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