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Thread: Performance STOL Double Slotted Flap system now STC'd for the PA-18

  1. #81

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    THANK YOU for taking the moment for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  2. #82

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    does a piece of flat that extends, say 4 inches above and below the wing on the end help at all?

  3. #83

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    Helio's have spoilers on each wing to spoil lift called interceptors that pop up when full aileron deflection is needed at slow speeds.
    Land into wind with Helios, or 45 degrees to runway they land so short in wind. Why do crosswind?
    John
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  4. #84
    Little_Cub's Avatar
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    I'm sure it does.. we did a plate years ago that extended a foot both directions, we really felt any cross wind
    but IMO the gain wasn't much. Jerry Burr tested his tips and the results speak for them selves! He
    beat everyone at Oshkosh in 2017 in his certified J-3 ! (with the exception of Steve Henry in his experimental Just)
    Jerry is the sum of all positive parts!!
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  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
    Helio's have spoilers on each wing to spoil lift called interceptors that pop up when full aileron deflection is needed at slow speeds.
    Land into wind with Helios, or 45 degrees to runway they land so short in wind. Why do crosswind?
    John
    Because my strip is 15' wide with no diagonal approach? That's a primary concern with slats and big flaps, too.

  6. #86
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    Flat Plates Wing Tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Cub View Post
    I'm sure it does.. we did a plate years ago that extended a foot both directions, we really felt any cross wind
    but IMO the gain wasn't much. Jerry Burr tested his tips and the results speak for them selves! He
    beat everyone at Oshkosh in 2017 in his certified J-3 ! (with the exception of Steve Henry in his experimental Just)
    Jerry is the sum of all positive parts!!




    Did the adverse affect of the large wing tip flat plates cause the plane to weather vane into the wind or did it cause increased drift in the direction of the wind? Thanks for your time.

  7. #87

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    With Helio one can land with brakes locked and not nose over, just skids to stop.
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  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
    With Helio one can land with brakes locked and not nose over, just skids to stop.
    I’m guessing that’s because the tail is made of lead, the tailwheel of concrete and gold is used as ballast. Next time I volunteer to move the tail of a Helio in grass I’ll be looking for a winch truck!
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  9. #89

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    Mainly because gear is so far forward, tail for sure is heavy because of the forward gear, but that is why they have a big prop, 96", and geared engine, lots of thrust other straight drive planes do not have. On floats when one cycles the prop it sets you back in the seat. What else can fly at 28mph, land on a dime in a bit of wind that is that size plane?
    John
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  10. #90

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    Agreed. They look like a 3600lb kite when slowed down. About the time you think it’s all going south and a wings going to quit it just keeps flying.

  11. #91

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    Nothing like them, one year I flew one from Anchorage to Acapulco and back. Landing in Mexico in hotel parking lots, beaches, almost anywhere we wanted, got in a bit of trouble in a few spots, but that was years ago when Mexico was smaller and not as dangerous. They would love a Helio drug plane today!
    John
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  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    The JUST HIGHLANDER looks about like a 70flaps30aileron percentage deal, anyone know what they measure, but just guessing a 50/50 sounds good.
    My JUST SuperStol stock flaps are 8', Stock Ailerons 5 1/2', I am extending aileron almost 1'

    It also has Spoilers stock, that run 3/4 length of aileron.

    Troy said they designed the wing and slat to work like the Helio, but lighter (they have one hanging in the factory)
    Last edited by bda; 01-21-2018 at 01:02 AM.

  13. #93
    Little_Cub's Avatar
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    The best Cub “is the next one”.. Wayne Mackey.


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  14. #94
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Just finished the install of my Performance STOL slotted fraps from Airframes Alaska. Waiting for weather to clear around here to fly them. Any suggestions, advice, heads up warnings from those who have them installed and flying before I venture fourth with them? How aggressive may I slip with them?
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  15. #95

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    JL,
    Nothing to do, just go fly it. You will find the tail comes up by itself, either solo or with passenger, no forward stick required. Flies slower, hangs on far better. Flatter deck angle on approach. I found the nose comes up if you are not going below about 50 mph when flaps put on, so keep it slower so you do not have to trim for each notch.
    Mine would fly at 30mph with slight power and just hang, reduce power slightly and just sinks, level wings.

    Let me know what you find.
    To me a great addition. I had them anodize my flap brackets red to match my paint scheme, red/white. They look cool aside from really working!
    John
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  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    Just finished the install of my Performance STOL slotted fraps from Airframes Alaska. Waiting for weather to clear around here to fly them. Any suggestions, advice, heads up warnings from those who have them installed and flying before I venture fourth with them? How aggressive may I slip with them?
    I look forward to hearing your post flight thoughts.

  17. #97
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    I’m planning a full pirep after I try them out


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  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Aileron View Post
    I am coming to the Airmen's show this May. I wonder if I could fly one of these "bad boys" and test it out for myself? I have a super cub and am going to have it rebuilt this fall and am looking for mods that don't add much weight and really work. This sounds like such a mod.

  19. #99
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    My birthday isn't till June but thanks Tony.Click image for larger version. 

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  20. #100
    txpacer's Avatar
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    Time for another road trip

  21. #101
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Jason and I will fly them up to you next week after we get them installed on my Super Cub.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  22. #102
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    I'd better get there quick

  23. #103
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    You won't mind a little Brazos River mud on them will ya?
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  24. #104
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    Looks like it. Came with clear template to locate.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    You won't mind a little Brazos River mud on them will ya?
    It's gonna get there sooner or later

  26. #106

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    I cut the fabric in the outboard flap hangar bay to install the doublers with driven rivets, just could not bring myself to use the supplied pull rivets. Airframes gave me credit when I returned the unused cherry rivets. I posted some pictures of the install on web site for reference.

    LiteCub
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  27. #107

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    I am getting real sick of hearing about these flaps.....without being able to buy a set for my exp RANS S-7S that is! The price seems very reasonable for you guys that CAN use them, as compared to what benefits they offer. I'd buy a set today if they were available for my bird.

    Though I doubt it would be perceived as cost effective for AA to look into providing these flaps for the exp market, The S-7/S7S RANS like mine in particular, I'd like to put a bug in their ear that it may be something they could look into when they get some time on their hands. Please....take my money.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    I am getting real sick of hearing about these flaps.....without being able to buy a set for my exp RANS S-7S that is! The price seems very reasonable for you guys that CAN use them, as compared to what benefits they offer. I'd buy a set today if they were available for my bird.

    Though I doubt it would be perceived as cost effective for AA to look into providing these flaps for the exp market, The S-7/S7S RANS like mine in particular, I'd like to put a bug in their ear that it may be something they could look into when they get some time on their hands. Please....take my money.
    You need to put a bug in the ear of Doug Keller, he is the guy who designed these wonderful flaps.

  29. #109

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    I will do that, and point out that the RANS company has plans to put an increased span version of the same all metal wing they are using on the new S-21, on newer and even existing S-7's and that would be the wing to benefit most as it will be around long term. One lift strut, all metal, 20 gallon/40 total fuel tanks, and a Riblett airfoil, it has us RANS pilots all a twitter, as it will retro fit to my fuselage, bolt right on, just some minor control cable mods. It is looking to be a big enough hit with the exp crowd, that an after market mod like double slotted flaps, could actually make some money (maybe...) to whoever came up with it.
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  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    I will do that, and point out that the RANS company has plans to put an increased span version of the same all metal wing they are using on the new S-21, on newer and even existing S-7's and that would be the wing to benefit most as it will be around long term. One lift strut, all metal, 20 gallon/40 total fuel tanks, and a Riblett airfoil, it has us RANS pilots all a twitter, as it will retro fit to my fuselage, bolt right on, just some minor control cable mods. It is looking to be a big enough hit with the exp crowd, that an after market mod like double slotted flaps, could actually make some money (maybe...) to whoever came up with it.
    I thought the reason Rans was keeping the metal wing so short on the 21 was because they’re using single struts on that plane. They said in their blog that they didn’t think the metal wing design would work if longer with only one strut. Did they change their mind now? That’s what really turned me off about the 21: Not enough wing.

    MTV

  31. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I thought the reason Rans was keeping the metal wing so short on the 21 was because they’re using single struts on that plane. They said in their blog that they didn’t think the metal wing design would work if longer with only one strut. Did they change their mind now? That’s what really turned me off about the 21: Not enough wing.

    MTV
    Well, the way I understood it, there was some yet to be done final engineering as to whether a bit longer span on that wing, for S-7S users, would require two lift struts. If so, then the option would also exist to use fabric instead of metal for covering, the metal for sure being needed with 1 strut, and not needed with dual lift struts.. Probably also wouldn't need that internal truss the one strut wing uses, so more weight savings. I don't need a metal wing as I hangar, I'd rather save the weight, using Oratex for covering.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by couierguy View Post
    I am getting real sick of hearing about these flaps.....without being able to buy a set for my exp RANS S-7S that is! The price seems very reasonable for you guys that CAN use them, as compared to what benefits they offer. I'd buy a set today if they were available for my bird.

    Though I doubt it would be perceived as cost effective for AA to look into providing these flaps for the exp market, The S-7/S7S RANS like mine in particular, I'd like to put a bug in their ear that it may be something they could look into when they get some time on their hands. Please....take my money.
    Your experimental and a clever guy. I would think it would not be that difficult to copy the geometry and get some CNC shop to make all the hangers, then build the flap sections?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  33. #113

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    I'd be even more clever if I took one of the actual metal wings to wherever Keller is, (Oregon, I think) after first hopefully persuading him of the economic viability of offering his flap mod to the RANS crowd for their new metal wing, making my bird the beta test rig. Then I'd go back to work here at home while he does what he does, and we'd both come out ahead financially! I fear there may be some constraints on him offering the flap system, even for other aircraft designs, now that AA has purchased the marketing rights, that make sense? That's my first thought, pay the guy who really knows what he's doing, a last resort will be to do like you say, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I can just buy one. Plus, it'd be stealing his idea. Chime in Mr. Keller if you are interested, I'm serious.

  34. #114
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    Hello Steve how well do these work on a stock super cub ?

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
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  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-FIJK View Post
    Hello Steve how well do these work on a stock super cub ?

    Thanks
    I have not flown them but here is a post I made on page one from my observations of Paul Claus trying them out on Doug Keller's stock Super Cub.
    I was at the Ultima Thule Lodge when Paul Claus flew Doug's first Super Cub with the split flaps. He flew his own airplane first and landed like I had never seen him land before with the tail low, nose high. He then took his GPS and flew Doug's Super Cub. He came in flat and landed. He said he was 3 miles an hour slower in his Cub but did that with the nose up and poor visibility over the nose where he came in flat and could see over the nose with Doug's flaps. I bet if he had more time in Doug's Cub he could have lowered that airspeed. I know if I drag my Super Cub in I can land slower but poor visibility, stresses on the tail in rough terain and less control in gusty conditions prevent me from landing in that configuration much.
    Steve Pierce

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  36. #116

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    I have several hours in my Cub now and confirm 10% slower stall speed in ground effect. The deck angle is shallower when coming in. The slowest I have seen on my GPS in ground effect in the winter(cold air) is 38 MPH with the Keller flaps similarly loaded 35 MPH. The tail comes up immediately with full power when taking off and still seeing what is the best flap setting for getting off the shortest in snow. It makes it easy to see how it is doing when looking at the tracks left each time with different techniques during departure. I am pleased with how they perform.
    LiteCub
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  37. #117
    nanook's Avatar
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    It would be nice if someone could give a comprehensive performance report on these flaps. Are you using 1/2 flaps for takeoff? What happens when you pop on full flaps at takeoff?
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  38. #118
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Your experimental and a clever guy. I would think it would not be that difficult to copy the geometry and get some CNC shop to make all the hangers, then build the flap sections?

    Glenn
    patented

  39. #119
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    patented
    I think you can copy anything you want for own use. And getting something patented in my opinion is a mistake for whoever invented it. You put all your ideas in print for public knowledge when you patent something. So now the whole world knows how you do something and can steal it. And when they do nobody in the patent office does anything to help you. And if you want to go after a patent infringement get your wallet out and after a couple years in and out of court and a couple hundred grand later you will get the satisfaction that you won. And if someone else stole it you now can start going after them. My Dad was a pretty savy guy, he invented a few things in his day. Back in a late 50s he invented the first electric carving knife. Built a couple different models till he was happy with something that would hold up. He was talked into patenting it by all the talking heads. He got his patent and was lining up someone to build and market it. Less then a year later GE came out with a knife that was 99% identical to his design. He fought GE for a while till he ran out of money, judge told him he would win if he just stuck it out. GE came to court with 4 or 5 expensive suit lawyers every time. He finally gave up. That patent hangs in my house and is worth less the the toilet paper it should be recycled into. I have a friend who is a 5th generation luthier, ( violin builder ) a few years ago he invented a new tail piece for string instruments that made tuning much simpler. He wanted to patent it, I begged him not to. Cost him over 60k to get it patented. Less then 9 months later it was for sale in music ads for 1/3 less then he was asking. Sad but true

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  40. #120

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    A bit different with an STC, not the same deal as a patent, I know getting the STC took Doug several years, not simple like patenting when someone can make a slight change and get around the patent.
    You can make a set for your use I would think, but one never knows if it really works unless you become a test pilot, and hope it works right the first try!
    John

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