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Thread: PA-12 or PA-18 landing gear?

  1. #1

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    PA-12 or PA-18 landing gear?

    I'm sure this has been discussed at length before but for the life of me I'm not finding much... I bought a wag aero 2+2 project that was set up for bungees concealed in the belly style gear. I'm guessing the intent was to keep it more original along the pa-14. I know that the super cub gear is much more robust, but for the type of flying I plan to do I'm not sure if it's needed. Can someone explain more about each system and their merits so I can make a more informed decision on which way to proceed?

  2. #2
    PerryB's Avatar
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    I think the biggest advantage of the 18 system is simplified bungee replacement.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  3. #3
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    I think the biggest advantage of the 18 system is simplified bungee replacement.
    Also the ease of switching back and forth to floats is much simpler and quicker.
    N1PA

  4. #4

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    There is nothing wrong with a PA-12/14 gear. If you are doing regular flying, stick with the gear. If you are landing on rock beds or on floats, go with the PA-18 gear.
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  5. #5
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I converted to -18 gear on my -12. If I had it to do over I think I would stick with the -12 gear because there is a lot less "stuff" hanging out in the breeze causing drag. The Alaska Bushwheels STC requires "Heavy Duty" gear though, so that could be an issue depending on what your IA considers to be heavy duty, and whether you want those tires.
    Gordon

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  6. #6
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Gordon, are you running bungee bags or airfoil covers? I ditched my bags in favor of covers and picked up 1 or 2 mph. I'm seriously thinking of covering my gear legs with Monocoat modeling film to see what the gain is, and then decide if I want to do a bona fide covering job. Or maybe aluminum skins like I see some of the members here doing.
    As far as the gear type, I wouldn't want to put the bungees back inside, nor would I want to give up my -18 seat, which required removal of the original bungee truss.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  7. #7
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I made airfoil bungee covers and picked up a couple mi/hr more than with the bags, 2 or 3? PUHLEEZE do that gear covering experiment - been waiting on your data for a couple years now! I tried wrapping my gear with Saran Wrap to see if that would work for experimenting, but it wouldn't hold in place. I think your idea is pretty smart though. Will Monocoat tighten up enough to not flutter in the wind? I'd bet there's another 3 mi/hr or so to be had?? At my speed that matters - haha.
    Gordon

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  8. #8
    aktango58's Avatar
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    cruise speed suffers with 18 gear. Lots more out in the wind.

    As said above, for normal flying, even what happens at Johnson Creek, (well- most of what happens) standard 12 gear should be just fine. If I recall you can get gear legs with axle brace for HD gear if you want bushwheels.

    Changing floats/wheels, and changing bungees is more difficult.

    So what is your plan for flying?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  9. #9
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Yeah I know, I've been waiting 2 or 3 years for my data too ! I THINK modeling film would hold up long enough to get a cruise speed number. It shrinks a lot, tension shouldn't be an issue.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  10. #10
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    I made airfoil bungee covers and picked up a couple mi/hr more than with the bags, 2 or 3? PUHLEEZE do that gear covering experiment - been waiting on your data for a couple years now! I tried wrapping my gear with Saran Wrap to see if that would work for experimenting, but it wouldn't hold in place. I think your idea is pretty smart though. Will Monocoat tighten up enough to not flutter in the wind? I'd bet there's another 3 mi/hr or so to be had?? At my speed that matters - haha.
    Cardboard and duct tape!

    Been using it to test speed fairings on my race sleds, holds up well for testing, easy to remove.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  11. #11
    PerryB's Avatar
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    I was thinking about that too.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  12. #12

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    Gordon, How much did it actually slow you down? And is that why you regret doing the conversion ?

  13. #13
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onesick784 View Post
    Gordon, How much did it actually slow you down? And is that why you regret doing the conversion ?
    I don't really know because I did a bunch of other things at rebuild also. I'll guess maybe about 5 mi/hr. And yes, that's why. On the other hand removing the interior bungee truss loses a little bit of weight. And I like having the hydrosorbs - they eliminate a couple of the bounces from my typical landings
    Gordon

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  14. #14
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    And I like having the hydrosorbs - they eliminate a couple of the bounces from my typical landings
    Gotta cycle the gear from time to time. Keeps everything limbered up.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  15. #15
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    I made airfoil bungee covers and picked up a couple mi/hr more than with the bags, 2 or 3? PUHLEEZE do that gear covering experiment - been waiting on your data for a couple years now! I tried wrapping my gear with Saran Wrap to see if that would work for experimenting, but it wouldn't hold in place. I think your idea is pretty smart though. Will Monocoat tighten up enough to not flutter in the wind? I'd bet there's another 3 mi/hr or so to be had?? At my speed that matters - haha.
    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    Yeah I know, I've been waiting 2 or 3 years for my data too ! I THINK modeling film would hold up long enough to get a cruise speed number. It shrinks a lot, tension shouldn't be an issue.
    When you two do this project place an aerodynamic V shape behind the aft gear tube. This will reduce the drag behind a large diameter round tube. Balsa wood or even cardboard should work.
    I've wondered if a V shape behind each gear tube would have a similar effect as covering the entire gear? Some consideration should be given the the mixture of tubes and brake cylinders at the inboard side of the tires.
    N1PA

  16. #16

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    Perry B Try the shrink wrap from a boat yard usually they have scraps left over get a length of tape shrink with heat gun should work fine color may not match plane though.

  17. #17
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    When you two do this project place an aerodynamic V shape behind the aft gear tube. This will reduce the drag behind a large diameter round tube. Balsa wood or even cardboard should work.
    I've wondered if a V shape behind each gear tube would have a similar effect as covering the entire gear? Some consideration should be given the the mixture of tubes and brake cylinders at the inboard side of the tires.
    I've had exactly the same thoughts.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  18. #18
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douten View Post
    Perry B Try the shrink wrap from a boat yard usually they have scraps left over get a length of tape shrink with heat gun should work fine color may not match plane though.
    Once again, I've had the same idea. If I could get it in white and it held up, it might just stay there! It'd be nice because if you bugger it up, repairs would be simple. Just redo it.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  19. #19

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    There are woven fabric scale model heat shrink coverings such as Coverite and Oratex. But putting V fairings on each tube appeals to me. If you cover the whole thing the prop induced spiral airflow is not aligned with the slab.
    What's a go-around?

  20. #20
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Gordon and Perry,
    For a simple answer to this question get some stiff poster paper or cardboard formed into a V. Duct tape it to the gear legs and tape some yarn to the trailing edges. Go fly and watch the yarn. What is it doing? Better yet do the yarn test first for a base line of knowledge. Vary the leg length of the Vs. Change the alignment of the Vs to the gear tubes. Due to the prop wash the flow may be different between the left and right gear legs. You may find that covering across the two gear legs just adjacent to the lower cluster axle area has the highest drag reduction. This area is very dirty aerodynamically.

    If the yarn is flapping all over the place, streamlining is called for. If it is relatively straight but at an angle to the path of flight, place the Vs at an angle to get the flow where you want it.

    You may find that a curved covering on the outboard side of the V and flat on the inboard side with a V at the trailing edge will provide some lift not apparent when flat covering as Piper did it.
    N1PA
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  21. #21

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    I flew a -14 with stock -14 gear and had no problems or complaints. I had 8.50's x 6.00 tires and did not try to take the airplane anywhere too aggressive. I was tempted to go to -18 gear, but ultimately decided that a -14 should be a -14 not an imitation -18. Also, it was cheaper to stick with what I had.

  22. #22
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
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    12's at Twin Pine last weekend:







    and an Arctic Tern for kicks...

    Likes C130jake, Hardtailjohn, MainlandCub liked this post

  23. #23
    C130jake's Avatar
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    That red and white one had me in the back seat.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  24. #24
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Gordon and Perry,
    For a simple answer to this question get some stiff poster paper or cardboard formed into a V. Duct tape it to the gear legs and tape some yarn to the trailing edges. Go fly and watch the yarn. What is it doing? Better yet do the yarn test first for a base line of knowledge. Vary the leg length of the Vs. Change the alignment of the Vs to the gear tubes. Due to the prop wash the flow may be different between the left and right gear legs. You may find that covering across the two gear legs just adjacent to the lower cluster axle area has the highest drag reduction. This area is very dirty aerodynamically.

    If the yarn is flapping all over the place, streamlining is called for. If it is relatively straight but at an angle to the path of flight, place the Vs at an angle to get the flow where you want it.

    You may find that a curved covering on the outboard side of the V and flat on the inboard side with a V at the trailing edge will provide some lift not apparent when flat covering as Piper did it.
    Good ideas; Thanks!
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  25. #25
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
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    Couldn't tell Jake, blackout windows!
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  26. #26

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    Jake
    Would you know if the pod on the 12 you were in is an landis or Firmin?

  27. #27
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Joe View Post
    Jake
    Would you know if the pod on the 12 you were in is an landis or Firmin?
    Looks like firman. Landis is much smaller.


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  28. #28
    C130jake's Avatar
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    I think the pod says Alaska bush pod on it. We bought it last month. The previous owner is a member here but not sure if he posts. I will check Friday when we put the new tail springs on.

    I still have a month or so on my rehab before I can start flying instead of riding.

    Jake


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