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fuel injection or not

Mauleguy

Mauleguy

MEMBER
I am putting a different engine in Bushwacker 2.0 this time around. Before I had a Lycoming 180 hp 0-360 Conical mount with updraft MA4-5 carb. This time I am going with a Lycoming IO-360 angle valve, it is rated for 200 hp. I have had some say it is not a good combination for a bush plane and others say no problem. I was going to converting it to an updraft carb so that I have the simplicity of gravity feed and hand proping when needed. I don't think you would loose much in horse power but would loose in fuel efficiency with the carb. Feedback?

Here is one of my question, can you still hand prop the IO-360 with no electrical power? I would also like to hear from any out there that are running the injected 4 cylinder engines and whether you hate it and would not do it again or like it and why.

Thank you,

Greg
 
I chose API's mechanical fuel injection for my new engine. The only thing I need power for is the boost pump for priming. I'm not very concerned about finding a dead battery but I usually carry an EarthX Jump Pack in my go gear for wheelers and boats and the like. Light, easy to carry, and it'd power my boost pump easily.
http://earthxbatteries.com/shop/earthx-jump-pack
 
Stewart's approach will work fine. You can also install a standard primer to assist in hand propping. Or, as Stewart says, just equip it with an external power port...maybe inside the cockpit, and carry a start PAC.

The IO 360s are great engines in my experience. Fuel efficiency is MUCH better than a carb equipped engine.

MTV
 
I hand propped my 180 cub on floats one time, and also an Arrow (injected) one time.

Neither was an experience I want to do again. High compression, bad angles, and lots of kick back potential. The Arrow was much better when it cooled off.

For me I would be looking to keep it all in a manner to not need power, so a primer might do the trick. Yes, they will start. Cold is much easier to start than hot though.

Stewart has a great solution, but having to carry a power pack would not be appealing to me.
 
aktango58 said:
Stewart has a great solution, but having to carry a power pack would not be appealing to me.
Click to expand...

I see your point, but they are getting pretty small these days. I've got a very small backpack (not much bigger than a little camelback backpack) that I carry with me when I fly. It's got some of my paperwork, airfield badge, iPad, etc in there so I can't forget it. One would fit in it there no problem. It might not be as bad an inconvenience as it used to be.
 
I have an IO-360-B1D (180 hp) in my Cub. Works fine, easy on gas, easy to start cold or hot with P-mags. It might be difficult to hand prop because for some reason the Whirlwind prop doesn't index in a convenient position. It's on floats, might be easier to prop on wheels. You could use a hand pump in lieu of electric for emergency and starting.
 
One other issue that a decision should include is the possible issues that come with fuel in the bush.

If you intend to spend lots of time fueling out of gas can in remote areas, you increase the chance of plugged injectors and fuel screens. Carbs are easier to deal with in the field, and can be more tolerant of fuel contamination.

If you are going to fly in super cold, injected is much more reliable.
 
Evey key start should be a self-challenge to see how few blades it can take to start the engine in any given season. In preparation for that inevitable hand start.
 
I hand propped an IO-520 in a Cessna 206 one time. I was a better man then than I am now! I didn't have a lot of choice but figure out how to make it work. You can be assured that I prayed a bit before it started. Someone would have had to fly close to 1000 miles to come a help me as I was out in the middle of the Amazon jungle.
 
Hello,
You can hand prop anything. DHC2 to PA-31s to Hot-rod S1/2 Pitts. I would try asking some Pitts guys. Those fellows are the real deal or were. Super high compression engine injected NO electrics, not even a Motorola Razor.

An APU plug and you should be good to go if you want to be a gentleman about it. I am assuming you are not running an electronic ignition. You are in Steve Wolf country I believe, Pietch's(so) in Minot, anyways reach out to the Pitts community they run similarly set up motors and have already done all this stuff everyone here speaks of.

Merry Chrismas,
Mike
 
Some guys with the EFII system have dual batteries keeping one isolated for a backup. That system requires power to run. It's not impractical considering the weight of EarthX batteries.
 
stewartb said:
I chose API's mechanical fuel injection for my new engine. The only thing I need power for is the boost pump for priming. I'm not very concerned about finding a dead battery but I usually carry an EarthX Jump Pack in my go gear for wheelers and boats and the like. Light, easy to carry, and it'd power my boost pump easily.
http://earthxbatteries.com/shop/earthx-jump-pack
Click to expand...

I do the same. Mine is 1.2 lbs, cost me $80 and is just a little bigger than my tablet. At 1/2 power it will start an 0-320 at least once. Jumped a Honda CRV too. They will also charge phones and the like thru a USB port...worth having IMHO.
 
For a group that is willing to cut the handle off the tooth brush to save 2 oz, 1.2 lbs of 'needed' equipment is equal to a ton!
 
Had a IO360 A1B6 on my Bushmaster. Liked it a lot. 9 gph at 65%. Hand propped cold Ok. Hot starts not so easy. Would recommend APU plug inside and small battery pack (Lightning Pak).
 
Bob Barrows has a lot of experience running IO-360 angle valve engines carbureted. He uses a rear induction sump and a 90 degree adapter. Says it distributes really well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
mghallen said:
Hello,
You can hand prop anything. DHC2 to PA-31s to Hot-rod S1/2 Pitts. I would try asking some Pitts guys. Those fellows are the real deal or were. Super high compression engine injected NO electrics, not even a Motorola Razor.

An APU plug and you should be good to go if you want to be a gentleman about it. I am assuming you are not running an electronic ignition. You are in Steve Wolf country I believe, Pietch's(so) in Minot, anyways reach out to the Pitts community they run similarly set up motors and have already done all this stuff everyone here speaks of.

Merry Chrismas,
Mike
Click to expand...

I have a neighbor down the road, who has had a Pitts for 28 years, bought new. I seem to recall "300 horse, less then 1000 lbs, like 900 maybe"! Having just had back surgery he's holding off flying it for a while, as it can take more then he can.
 
Greg,

A couple of thoughts, some of which may have already been mentioned:

  • The rams horn style induction system on most angle valve 360s offers significant airflow balance improvement over most updraft carb type sumps. Having said that, the total induction system, including the cowling inlet, airbox, etc. play a major role in this.
  • If you cruise at the same speeds with the 200 horse angle valve Lyc as you did with the 180 horse parallel valve, you'll see significantly improved fuel economy. Glasair proved this when they flew their two factory demonstrator Glastar Sportsmans (Sportsmen?) cross-country together. The angle valve burned a lot less fuel at the same speed. This is partly due to the improved induction system, but also to the slightly increased compression ratio (8.7:1 vs. 8.5:1) and to the significantly improved cylinder head on the angle valve. Some years ago, when I was working with Lycoming's Thunderbolt Engines program, we discovered that the out-of-the-box cylinder head flow efficiency was massively better on the angle valve than the parallel valve. This became apparent when we flow matched customer engines. The angle valve cylinders showed limited improvement to flow matching, but there was a LOT of room for improvement on the parallel valve cylinders. (I was told that this was in part due to the older tooling that was used to cast Lycoming parallel valve cylinders at that time. Granted, this was ten years ago; hopefully they've retooled since then.)
  • If you wanted to retain the ability to hand prop, I would think retaining the primer for such emergencies would do the trick

Have a great day,

Jon
 
I have an injected Decathlon. It almost never lets me down - but away from home and a hot start attempt and my throat starts getting dry as that eleventh blade passes by.

A hot start with a carb is almost trivial in comparison.

I have hand-propped everything from a Cub to a 450 Stearman, successfully. I was maybe 73 years old the last time I started an injected 206. But I shudder to think of hand- propping the Decathlon with nobody inside and a hot engine. Yow!
 
I have hand-propped a Continental IO-360. It was cold and I gave it a couple of shots of prime and it started just fine. This was at a back country strip too after my son and I had camped for the night. My battery was discharging the day before because of an alternator problem and I didn't know it.

This engine has a mechanical pump and an electrical boost pump.
 
Greg, did you ever end up with an IO360-A1B6 in your bird?

I’m considering one for the Legend MOAC build we’re undertaking. Barrett feels we could get it on at about 288 lbs and would produce about 196hp w/ stock 8.7:1’s. So about 20 lbs lighter on the nose than an IO390 (309lbs), which would help a great deal since the Legend PA18-’s are not stretched frames.

I had the angle valve IO360-A1B6 in a Beech Sierra years ago and it was a remarkably smooth 4-cyl engine that sipped fuel.

Mauleguy said:
I am putting a different engine in Bushwacker 2.0 this time around. Before I had a Lycoming 180 hp 0-360 Conical mount with updraft MA4-5 carb. This time I am going with a Lycoming IO-360 angle valve, it is rated for 200 hp. I have had some say it is not a good combination for a bush plane and others say no problem. I was going to converting it to an updraft carb so that I have the simplicity of gravity feed and hand proping when needed. I don't think you would loose much in horse power but would loose in fuel efficiency with the carb. Feedback?

Here is one of my question, can you still hand prop the IO-360 with no electrical power? I would also like to hear from any out there that are running the injected 4 cylinder engines and whether you hate it and would not do it again or like it and why.

Thank you,

Greg
Click to expand...
 
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