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Thread: Carb Temp variations in Pponk'd C180s

  1. #41
    SJ's Avatar
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    bubb2, I looked at the RSA website, it does not appear to be available for 470/520 engines only 360's and 540's. I may be reading it wrong or looking in the wrong place.

    What do you think an install like that will cost? (FI upgrade that is).

    Thanks for post and for the info!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    bubb2, I looked at the RSA website, it does not appear to be available for 470/520 engines only 360's and 540's. I may be reading it wrong or looking in the wrong place.

    What do you think an install like that will cost? (FI upgrade that is).

    Thanks for post and for the info!

    sj
    sj,
    The RSA system is generally for the Lycoming engines. The big Continentals use a different system from Continental. You might research the STC list. I believe that I've seen an STC to install an RSA system on a big Continental. Also you will need to install a fuel pump along with an auxiliary fuel pump. The Continental system requires a return line back to the fuel tank where the RSA system does not.
    N1PA
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    The other day I flew in a gorgeous 59 c180 with a PPonk and asked the owner about his carb temps. 135 degrees and he never uses carb heat, never had ice, etc. It was about 30 degrees out that day.
    Any ideas?

    sj
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If your friend's carb temp was 135* he's getting heat from somewhere.
    sj, stewart is correct that other 180 has leakage somewhere in the system. When the carb heat control is "cold" the temperature should never be above ambient. That other 180 is leaving some horsepower behind in the barn.
    N1PA
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  4. #44
    SJ's Avatar
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    Thanks, the bigger deal though, is that his no carb heat temp is higher than my full carb heat temp ever is...

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  5. #45

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    So fix it. What's taking you so long?

  6. #46
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    So far, no clear idea of what the problem is. The crossover issue seems to be more related to the crossover freezing than cold carb temp. Can't afford fuel injection, and I don't have the carb box problem as I am ambient or less when idling.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  7. #47

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    Did you insulate the balance tube? Did it impact EGTs at the front cylinders?

    That has nothing to do with carb ice or lack of a robust carb heat source to manage carb ice. What is this thread about?

  8. #48
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    Stewart, I did not, but it does the same thing at ambient temps of 90+ degrees so that exercise seemed moot to solving the problem, unless I am misunderstanding the crossover insulation which I thought was to combat cold ambient air.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  9. #49

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    RSA Injection in O-470-50

    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    bubb2, I looked at the RSA website, it does not appear to be available for 470/520 engines only 360's and 540's. I may be reading it wrong or looking in the wrong place.

    What do you think an install like that will cost? (FI upgrade that is).

    Thanks for post and for the info!

    sj


    If you are truly interested in the RSA fuel injection let me know. Precision Airmotive has the printed data from an old Bendix STC to install RSA fuel injection in a Continental O-470 engine and in a Cessna 180 or 182. You have to get a field approval to use the data for install in the O-470-50 and most of the components called out in the STC have been superseded. I had most of this data approved on a 337 field approval about 12 years ago. While acquiring the components I noted I needed approval for substitute check valves, fuel air nozzles and the flow divider. I also plan on a couple deviations to the original STC such as retaining the manual priming system and my fuel Flow/pressure indicators (EDM-900) varies from what is called out in the STC. This will require a modification to the Flight Manual Supplement provided in the STC. This Field Approval request is currently being worked by the FAA. I think it's cost me about $5000 for the components, most in overhauled condition. As I am an A&P with IA my labor costs will be $0.
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  10. #50
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    couple deviations to the original STC such as retaining the manual priming system
    Can you explain how that works---sounds interesting.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Can you explain how that works---sounds interesting.
    The original STC's (SE1CE and STC 108CE) instructions call for the complete removal of the priming system. This is noted on the Flight Manual Supplement (part of the STC) in the Normal Starting section. In the fuel pressure/flow section of the Flight Manual Supplement (FMS) it describes the old fuel pressure gauge (no longer available) that was part of the Bendix kit. As I have an EDM-900 my fuel pressure and fuel flow readings are contrary to what is descibed in the FMS. This will require coordination with the Aircraft Certification Office (ACO) for the required changes to the FMS.

    Any time you have a major deviation from an STC you must get approval. As I am using the original STC as data, I must get approval for the different part number components I'm using, and any other major changes. Changes to a FMS are considered a major change.
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  12. #52
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Thanks, the bigger deal though, is that his no carb heat temp is higher than my full carb heat temp ever is...

    sj
    first, verify the wires are not reversed on the temp prob then.... you can just dip probe it in some hot water

  13. #53
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
    The original STC's (SE1CE and STC 108CE) instructions call for the complete removal of the priming system. This is noted on the Flight Manual Supplement (part of the STC) in the Normal Starting section. In the fuel pressure/flow section of the Flight Manual Supplement (FMS) it describes the old fuel pressure gauge (no longer available) that was part of the Bendix kit. As I have an EDM-900 my fuel pressure and fuel flow readings are contrary to what is descibed in the FMS. This will require coordination with the Aircraft Certification Office (ACO) for the required changes to the FMS.

    Any time you have a major deviation from an STC you must get approval. As I am using the original STC as data, I must get approval for the different part number components I'm using, and any other major changes. Changes to a FMS are considered a major change.
    if you are getting a field approval, then you are getting a FIELD APPROVAL, and just using the STC as data.... was easy years ago when i did it...(but many things FAA wise were easy then ) good luck

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    first, verify the wires are not reversed on the temp prob then.... you can just dip probe it in some hot water
    The formation of carb ice has confirmed the proper operation of the probe
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  15. #55
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    Ok folks, how do you insulate the crossover tube? I'd like to give it a shot!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  16. #56

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    My balance tube has the large expansion tube across the front. That part of the tube is wrapped with one layer of silicone fire sleeve which appears to be identical material as the induction rubbers. No visible fiberglass or mineral wool blanket. It's held by a couple of worm clamps. My crankcase vent tube uses foam insulation held with zip ties.

    Fire sleeve fabric would be good if you can find it. This stuff with velcro? Better yet.
    http://www.gwh-firesleeve.com/produc...sleeve-velcro/
    http://www.americanfiresleeve.com/ae...derations.html
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-09-2018 at 10:18 AM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Ok folks, how do you insulate the crossover tube? I'd like to give it a shot!

    sj
    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Frost-King-...lation/3130471
    This is the same stuff that Cessna uses on the breather vent where it's exposed to the cold air above the cylinders.
    N1PA

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Ok folks, how do you insulate the crossover tube? I'd like to give it a shot!

    sj
    You getting tired of the flying icemaker?
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Frost-King-...lation/3130471
    This is the same stuff that Cessna uses on the breather vent where it's exposed to the cold air above the cylinders.
    Pete, that is not the same as Cessna stuff. That Lowes stuff is open cell and not high temp. I tried to use it and it kindof melted.

    Cessna stuff is a closed cell product with higher temp resistance. fyi
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  20. #60
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    You can also wrap asbestos or whatever is newer version and coat it with sodium silicate to harden it to shape.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Pete, that is not the same as Cessna stuff. That Lowes stuff is open cell and not high temp. I tried to use it and it kind of melted.

    Cessna stuff is a closed cell product with higher temp resistance. fyi
    Thanks Dave, Good to know it looks pretty much like the same stuff.
    N1PA

  22. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Ok folks, how do you insulate the crossover tube? I'd like to give it a shot!

    sj
    SJ, what engine do you have in your 180? Where is your carb temp probe, in the side of the airbox or in the carb? What carb temp (full) do you get at cruise power on a standard day? What carb temp do you get at reduced power (about 15 inches MP)? What carb temp do you get at idle? My experience indicates carb heat temperatures will vary considerably depending on power and not necessarily as you would think. What's the condition of your left muffler (baffling) and the shroud? Condition of scat tube from muffler to airbox? Early 180's are kinda funky on the scat tube to the airbox as they will rub up against the firewall and wear holes in the tube. Have you checked to ensure when full carb heat is applied the airbox seal is indeed only letting heated air in? I also thought insulating the cross over tube was for cold weather operations. It's the only time I experienced the problem.

  23. #63
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    Thanks, Bubb, most of that has been covered in the thread above. I have a PPonk engine (520 case, carburetored). It's always been this way!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  24. #64

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    This video may interest you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4szv3ZBSJjw
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  25. #65

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    Has anyone ever gotten a field approval for an Ellison throttle body on a certificated airplane? This sure looks like a good fit for a C-180. I'd love to try one.

    http://ellison-fluid-systems.com/art...notaposa.shtml

  26. #66
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    Ellison throttle body has been around many years. I have no experience with them but recognized the beauty wayyyyy back.

    I want one! well I want two!!
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  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Thanks, Bubb, most of that has been covered in the thread above. I have a PPonk engine (520 case, carburetored). It's always been this way!

    sj
    I did not see any thing above that indicates your exhaust system. Did you keep the original exhaust (with flange change) or go another route?

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