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Thread: Oil temperature question

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ View Post
    Congrats. I just installed a 10 row cooler (up from 7 row) to see if that will help my OTs.
    Feel free to post in here how it works out. I spent a ton of time and mental energy trying to tackle this one. I'd love to help if I can.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    The snappy comeback pond seems to have been drained. I couldn't find anything at all in it - sorry.
    I must've really hit bottom. I can't even evoke an insult anymore. At least it wasn't Bartoli's principle.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    I must've really hit bottom. I can't even evoke an insult anymore. At least it wasn't Bartoli's principle.
    Well, my friend, maybe my reply was a better insult than I had imagined! Yah, that's it. The bait was unworthy of snappy comeback. Why didn't I think of that earlier?

    Sorry for the hijak everyone. It's Perry's fault, though.
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  4. #84
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    Iím now having the opposite issue with oil temps, but very happy to be dealing with that! I made a makeshift block to experiment with size requirements. Turns out I was way off. I added a bunch of layers of aluminum tape at my fuel up stop. This size hole got me to 190 degrees. OATs were 40-45. Opening is normally 4Ē.


    Iím going to make something much cleaner thatíll slide in place, with some adjustment available from fully closed to probably 3/4 or so.

    Just another follow-up. The new cooler location has been 100% satisfactory. Iím looking forward to summer temps to see how it does!

  5. #85
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Iím now having the opposite issue with oil temps, but very happy to be dealing with that! I made a makeshift block to experiment with size requirements. Turns out I was way off. I added a bunch of layers of aluminum tape at my fuel up stop. This size hole got me to 190 degrees. OATs were 40-45. Opening is normally 4Ē.


    Iím going to make something much cleaner thatíll slide in place, with some adjustment available from fully closed to probably 3/4 or so.

    Just another follow-up. The new cooler location has been 100% satisfactory. Iím looking forward to summer temps to see how it does!
    check out the butterfly closer I made for the wildcat cub oil coolers... http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...cat-Cub/page10

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Feel free to post in here how it works out. I spent a ton of time and mental energy trying to tackle this one. I'd love to help if I can.
    Question Tom. How did you attach that deflector/baffle behind cyl#4?

    I replaced my 7 row with a 10 row cooler (Aero Classics). The 7 row was canted aft but the bigger one didnt fit the same due to engine mount interference. Replaced the vernatherm with a spring and plunger. Each change helped 10-15 degrees. Running Aeroshell 100w plus. My vernatherm was not moving as much as the specs say so I'm sure some oil was bypassing all the time.
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    I only attached the cooler by the flanges on one side. Is that kosher? Will they crack unless support from the rear flanges as well?
    I still wouldn't mind lower temps. I'm seeing 210+F in a long climb. 200-205 cruising at 12K with 60F OAT. It's hard to run too cool up here. I'm going to try Phillips 25-60 oil since Aeroshell is scarce here.
    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ View Post
    Question Tom. How did you attach that deflector/baffle behind cyl#4?

    I replaced my 7 row with a 10 row cooler (Aero Classics). The 7 row was canted aft but the bigger one didnt fit the same due to engine mount interference. Replaced the vernatherm with a spring and plunger. Each change helped 10-15 degrees. Running Aeroshell 100w plus. My vernatherm was not moving as much as the specs say so I'm sure some oil was bypassing all the time.
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    I only attached the cooler by the flanges on one side. Is that kosher? Will they crack unless support from the rear flanges as well?
    I still wouldn't mind lower temps. I'm seeing 210+F in a long climb. 200-205 cruising at 12K with 60F OAT. It's hard to run too cool up here. I'm going to try Phillips 25-60 oil since Aeroshell is scarce here.
    DJ, itís not attached to anything. More of an interference fit of sorts. Viewed from above it used to be an ďLĒ shape, with the short leg pointing forward towards the prop. I trimmed the short leg to fit the contour of the cylinder the same as my baffle section where the cylinder bore fins change. The long leg is pretty tall and goes all the way to the bottom of the baffle section. Once I got it fit into place, I bent the top part of the long leg forward to allow more air into the SCAT for the oil cooler.

    Let me know if thatís not a great description and Iíll draw some pictures. Itís tough to describe.

    What were your OTs before the swap?

    My theory is this:
    -the air above the engine is *essentially* stagnant with little relative flow. The pressure differential between the top and bottom of the engine creates a ďsuctionĒ that accelerates the air through the fins of the cylinder/oil cooler.
    -once the air starts accelerating in a direction, like down through the fins, it would take a stronger pressure differential to accelerate it in a different direction and curve its path through the oil cooler fins.
    -when the oil cooler has some space between it and the cylinders, I think it creates a space that the ďstagnantĒ air can spread into. From there itís either accelerated through the fins or the oil cooler.
    -I think that the less space there is between the oil cooler and the fins, the less air will travel through the oil cooler. I think the effect is seen more in installations with more of the oil cooler ďcoveredĒ by the fins. Since the stagnant air is accelerated, itís speed is slower at the top of the fins and is more likely to get accelerated through the oil cooler. The further down the engine fins the air gets the faster I think itís going and the less likely it is to get accelerated through the oil cooler.

    Just my thoughts.
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  8. #88
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    Thanks Tom. I ran out of Aeroshell and had to switch to Phillips 25-60. Should have been an improvement but instead, I saw an immediate jump of at least 10 F oil temps. Pressure dropped 5-10 psi at idle. Now in the 40s. They tell me it's impossible to get Aeroshell here. Guess I'll be trying a baffle like yours.

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  9. #89

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    Replaced the vernatherm with a spring and plunger. Each change helped 10-15 degrees. Running Aeroshell 100w plus. My vernatherm was not moving as much as the specs say so I'm sure some oil was bypassing all the time.
    Is (was) your vern a part of the oil filter housing, or...? Simple cap replaced the vernatherm body/cap?

    I am tempted to go to the spring and plunger for your exact reasons.
    Last edited by motosix; 03-21-2019 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Spelling

  10. #90
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    I reused the cap part of the vernatherm. I just removed the spring clip and the vernatherm mechanism.

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    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ View Post
    I reused the cap part of the vernatherm. I just removed the spring clip and the vernatherm mechanism.
    I was hoping you would say that. The plug is like $130 new but I didn't want to tread new ground...

  12. #92
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    Hello everyone,
    I've read thru this thread and have some questions. I have a O-360 in an experimental backcountry super cub that is running high oil temps, 230-235 or higher with OAT 100*f. I have checked the temp gauge with a temp gun after flight, I haven't checked it with sending unit heated in oil but seems accurate according to readings on the heat gun. It is a steady temperature increase at any power setting straight and level, won't cool off when I reduce RPM to 2100 or so. CHTs are around 370-380. Cylinder compressions were all 78-79 at last inspection in June. I just changed the oil and checked the filter, no metal found. I removed the vernatherm and tested it in heated oil, it didn't start to move until around 215-220 so I replaced it. The old one does not have a complete 360 degree witness mark and the seat looks wrong.




    Does anyone have a copy of Lycoming service instruction 1316A? Will this create a high oil temp situation as described? Here are some pictures of how oil cooler is mounted.





    After I changed the vernatherm I flew for about 30 minutes after a brief rain shower here in south Texas, OATs in the low 80s and oil temps around 220. Baffling seems good, left side seal,



    Right side seal,









    The oil cooler has a 3" hose running to it, will a 4" hose help? I have the material to put 4" SCAT to the cooler but the heating problem wasn't noticeable last summer, probably because I was in NE PA, didn't get as hot up there. I would like to address the vernatherm seat after I get a copy of the 1316A. Is this set up wrong for the heat of Texas or should it be sufficient if everything is working correctly? I know its a lot of questions, but any help is appreciated,

    thanks in advance,

    Wes Schwarz

  13. #93

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    Others smarter than me will reply but as addressed previously it seems you would want to dispose of the vernatherm as I have done on my 160 cub and on our C 195. Mag timing helped on mine also overhauling my low time slick mags helped.

  14. #94

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    CHT's of 370-380 is hot. You need better engine cooling to solve your problem. Seaplane lip, bigger cheeks, check mag timing, and carb is what you need to look at. I would also go to viscosity valve for the oil.
    DENNY

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    CHT's of 370-380 is hot. You need better engine cooling to solve your problem. DENNY
    I disagree Denny, with an ambient temperature of 100*, CHTs 370-380* is good cooling.

    A 4" hose giving more volume of air through the cooler may help. And the seaplane lip is also a good recommendation.
    N1PA

  16. #96
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    The 3" hose is probably marginal in terms of airflow volume. A 4" will flow a LOT more air, like about 70% more. Also a small baffle around the cylinder right in front of the intake will keep the hot air moving down and around the cylinder, and not into the intake. Look at the last pic in post#72. Try the baffle first, it's a lot easier. The Vernatherm is not helping obviously. Its allowing some oil to bypass the cooler. It looks to be a minor seat repair issue and not very serious, but certainly a contributing factor.
    Last edited by PerryB; 08-17-2019 at 07:03 AM.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  17. #97
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    First thing I would do would be to get a manometer and see what kind of pressure differential on either side of the oil cooler. It is all about air flow and without modifying anything you can see what you have going on. https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Manom.../dp/B07KQVWFMK

    Tom and I spent many hours troubleshooting a similar issue and documented it here.
    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...ure-Experience
    Steve Pierce

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  18. #98
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    Wes, you didnít have this problem when you were up north. Just saying..
    bowman is next weekend. No fog right?


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  19. #99
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    Thanks everybody, I've ordered the manometer and will start checking airflow Monday. I would also like to review the
    service instruction 1316A, where is the best place to get a copy?

    Thanks again,
    Wes Schwarz

  20. #100
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    Tom Iíve whined more than once about the heat down here, 18 months up there and I appreciate your summers, but still a fan of a Texas winter,
    Probably wonít make Bowman or the WAD this year sad to say, unless something different happens pretty quick. Melissa and I would love to see yíall again!!


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    Wes Schwarz
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  21. #101
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    PS.... Iím still trying to find South Carolina.


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  22. #102

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    Skywagon8
    He has the 370-380 temps at 2,100 RPM. I could see that happening at 2,500 RPM, but at 2100 he should be a lot lower even with the high ambient temps. I am not a fan of silicone baffling but his looks good with witness marks on the cowl doors.
    DENNY

  23. #103
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    Denny, I read his post as meaning the oil temperature started down when the rpm dropped below 2100 and that the CHTs did not exceed 370-390 at all power settings.
    N1PA

  24. #104

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    Skywagon8
    That would sound a lot better.

    Schwarz
    I don't see a lot of CHT probes how are you getting that reading. Is that just one cylinder?
    DENNY

  25. #105

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    With that oil cooler installation you could add a pilot controlled scoop on the top cowl and force more air through the cooler without stealing any air from the top deck. If it was mine? I'd hang a 9 vein cooler on the rear baffle and lose the blast duct or move the cooler to the nose.

    Those CHTs are great in my opinion. Below 400* in 100* ambient is an achievement. Part of that success may be because there isn't enough air going to the oil cooler. Open up the cooler flow and you may see your CHTs rise.

  26. #106
    Schwarz's Avatar
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    Denny I am getting that reading on one cylinder, not a fan and I have been contemplating getting a better engine monitor but I have checked the readings with my temp gun and they are pretty accurate. Also to clarify, the oil temp will not come down at low power settings, the CHTs will a little bit. Even when taxing back to the hangar oil temps won't cool. I shutdown and immediately shoot the engine to see what the temps are, last time OAT was 106, all CHTs were with in 10 degrees or so of each other and oil temp shooting 235 around filter housing where the temp prob is located. Here is a pic of my gauge setup,



    After reading through the thread Steve P posted the link to I'm going to check my airflow through the cowling and see what I need to do to repair the vernatherm seat....or move up north.
    Wes Schwarz

  27. #107

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    A 3" blast tube provides 7.065 sq in of area. Changing to 4" would provide 12.56 sq in. My 9 vein Niagara coolers have 22 sq in of cooling area each. The blast tube arrangement is limiting your oil cooling potential.
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  28. #108
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    A 3" blast tube provides 7.065 sq in of area. Changing to 4" would provide 12.56 sq in. My 9 vein Niagara coolers have 22 sq in of cooling area each. The blast tube arrangement is limiting your oil cooling potential.
    I have the stuff I need to change it to 4", do you have any idea what CFM of air is going through a 4" tube at cruise if airflow through the cowling is good??
    Wes Schwarz
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  29. #109

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    No idea, but it can't match the flow through a fully exposed cooler on the rear baffle. But you can duct air from other places than just the top cowl. That would be a good place to start without impacting your CHTs.
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  30. #110
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    Oil temperature question

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    No idea, but it can't match the flow through a fully exposed cooler on the rear baffle. But you can duct air from other places than just the top cowl. That would be a good place to start without impacting your CHTs.
    There may not be room back there between the baffles and the engine mount for a fully exposed oil cooler. Thatís the big problem I had with mine. I donít think having the oil cooler flush against the cylinder does any good.

    Iíd 100% install your 4Ē SCAT. Thatís whatís feeding my 8406R and I have to block the inlet to warm up to 180 degree oil temps now. Iíd do this no matter what - you live in the South now .

    I also think your upper to lower cowl pressure differential will turn out to be low. From the pictures Iíd be willing to bet your upper cowl pressure difference to static pressure will be high, and that your lower cowl will have fairly high pressure as well.

    If thatís the case, Iíd fabricate a seaplane lip on the forward edge of your lower cowl opening. You need to create a low pressure area below the lower cowl opening so it can help evacuate the lower cowling.
    Last edited by CamTom12; 08-18-2019 at 02:59 PM.

  31. #111

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    Having never seen a section view of an oil cooler's cooling core, is there a reduction in efficiency when the cooler is laid horizontal rather than the vertical installations 99.9% of us use?

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Having never seen a section view of an oil cooler's cooling core, is there a reduction in efficiency when the cooler is laid horizontal rather than the vertical installations 99.9% of us use?
    The important thing to consider is to whether there can be some blockage trapping air in the cooler which would effectively reduce the available cooling capacity. It's best to place the inlet at the bottom and the outlet at the top in order for any air to be purged.
    N1PA
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  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    The important thing to consider is to whether there can be some blockage trapping air in the cooler which would effectively reduce the available cooling capacity. It's best to place the inlet at the bottom and the outlet at the top in order for any air to be purged.
    True. I mounted mine at a slight angle, with the outlet on the top.

  34. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    The important thing to consider is to whether there can be some blockage trapping air in the cooler which would effectively reduce the available cooling capacity. It's best to place the inlet at the bottom and the outlet at the top in order for any air to be purged.
    My coolers are 3-1/2" thick. I believe oil is spread across the full width dispersing heat through all the webs as it travels through the cooler from top to bottom. Laying on it's side I wonder how much of that width (now height) is filled with oil. If gravity holds the oil on the bottom half of the veins the cooler is losing much of it's capacity to cool the oil. I don't know if that's how they work but if I had the setup in the pics? I'd be asking a cooler manufacturer to hear what they had to say.

  35. #115

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    I might have missed a comment on this: all those rubber seals stapled to the aluminum baffles go up and forward, right? That can make a startling difference in oil temp.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My coolers are 3-1/2" thick. I believe oil is spread across the full width dispersing heat through all the webs as it travels through the cooler from top to bottom. Laying on it's side I wonder how much of that width (now height) is filled with oil. If gravity holds the oil on the bottom half of the veins the cooler is losing much of it's capacity to cool the oil. I don't know if that's how they work but if I had the setup in the pics? I'd be asking a cooler manufacturer to hear what they had to say.
    Interesting point that I hadn't thought of. Depends on the flow rate, among other potential parameters I'm not sure of. If one were to mount the cooler such that the inlet is on the bottom, and the discharge is on the top, the cooler would be assured to be full. I think you have a valuable question there.

    Edit: Also, the inlet and outlet ports are in the centers of the ends of the cooler. Seems like when mounted horizontally it would be pretty easy for air to be trapped on the top if the oil flow is insufficient to purge of all the passages.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 08-19-2019 at 12:40 AM.
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  37. #117

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    Air in the oil cooler is a definite possibility (I did not notice it) and the cheapest thing I can think of to fix. Disconnect the highest line and cooler from mount stand cooler on edge so all air will come out (shake and tap) fill top line with oil and reconnect.
    DENNY

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by phdigger123 View Post
    Your symptoms still sound to me like sludge in the engine plugged up the new oil cooler. First flight was good and it got blocked with sludge so subsequent flights have high oil temperature. I would remove the cooler and backflush it with solvent and see what comes out. If the oil cooler worked on the first flight, it should have continued to work, unless the flow of oil or air was blocked. From what I read, the air flow is not blocked, so it only leaves a blocked oil flow as the culprit.
    ^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^

  39. #119
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    Hello Like I had mentioned above take the oil cooler and move it to the front and all your problems will be solved .


    Quote Originally Posted by Schwarz View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I've read thru this thread and have some questions. I have a O-360 in an experimental backcountry super cub that is running high oil temps, 230-235 or higher with OAT 100*f. I have checked the temp gauge with a temp gun after flight, I haven't checked it with sending unit heated in oil but seems accurate according to readings on the heat gun. It is a steady temperature increase at any power setting straight and level, won't cool off when I reduce RPM to 2100 or so. CHTs are around 370-380. Cylinder compressions were all 78-79 at last inspection in June. I just changed the oil and checked the filter, no metal found. I removed the vernatherm and tested it in heated oil, it didn't start to move until around 215-220 so I replaced it. The old one does not have a complete 360 degree witness mark and the seat looks wrong.




    Does anyone have a copy of Lycoming service instruction 1316A? Will this create a high oil temp situation as described? Here are some pictures of how oil cooler is mounted.





    After I changed the vernatherm I flew for about 30 minutes after a brief rain shower here in south Texas, OATs in the low 80s and oil temps around 220. Baffling seems good, left side seal,



    Right side seal,









    The oil cooler has a 3" hose running to it, will a 4" hose help? I have the material to put 4" SCAT to the cooler but the heating problem wasn't noticeable last summer, probably because I was in NE PA, didn't get as hot up there. I would like to address the vernatherm seat after I get a copy of the 1316A. Is this set up wrong for the heat of Texas or should it be sufficient if everything is working correctly? I know its a lot of questions, but any help is appreciated,

    thanks in advance,

    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !
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  40. #120

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    What is that motor mount nut torqued to?

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