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Thread: Gitting Rid of the Rust...What Sort of Routine to Do in 30- 60 Minutes of Flight

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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Gitting Rid of the Rust...What Sort of Routine to Do in 30- 60 Minutes of Flight

    I don't know about you, but when I go more than a couple of weeks without flying my super cub I get a little rusty. There are times when I go for more than a few weeks without flying the super cub and I feel more than a little rusty, and I usually choose a decent day to go out and fly to regain a level of confidence in the aircraft.

    I want to share what I do when I am in that situation and would greatly appreciate hearing from you folks as to what your thoughts on how to go out in an hour or so to knock off some of the rust. Many of you likely fly a few times per week, and I envy you. I am certain, however, that there are many here who would appreciate you sharing some of your wisdom as to how best approach this situation.

    1. I typically choose a day when the wind isn't howling. More than gusting to 20 knots isn't the right day for me...when I am "in shape" I will do those kind of days, but not when rusty.
    2. I begin with climbing to a couple thousand feet agl and do the following: a. 30 degree turns left and right; b. steep turns left and right; slow flight with no flaps, then with one notch, then with full flaps, doing this on the edge of a stall while doing 180 degree turns; c. power off stalls; power on stalls.
    3. Hal Terry suggests doing Dutch rolls right and left, and I end the flight with these, picking a cloud on the horizon and banking to the left with application of full right rudder to the stop, then to the right with full left rudder to the stop, all the while keeping that cloud pinned at a specific point on the horizon.
    4. Short field takeoffs and landing.

    I can usually do this in 30 minutes and I am often ready to head back to the barn.

    Please take a moment to critique this scenario and share your thoughts. Thank you.

    Randy

  2. #2
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Randy,

    That is pretty much the routine I have recommended to folks for years, except for the landings part necessarily. In my experience, I'd be doing ten or more landings in a day, and I'd realize that my landings were starting to get a little sloppy.

    So, I'd go do the combination of maneuvers that you describe....then I'd go land, and invariably I'd find that my landings were significantly improved.....the airwork portion of your routine gets your basic stick and rudder skills tuned up a bit, and, as many many folks have said over the years, a well flown approach is essential to a good landing.

    Getting your basic stick and rudder skills tuned up, as you describe, really does help tighten up your approaches, which also improves your landings. As you describe, a few landings at the end of this drill can't hurt, and if nothing else ensures that you're legally current to carry passengers.

    MTV

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    JP's Avatar
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    The one core thing I think helps a great deal is simply flying slow. Real slow. With turns, etc. In front of and way, way behind the power curve. Do that for a half hour at altitude and you can kiss a lot of rust good bye.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    www.bloomerrussellbeaupain.com

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I like to pick a day with about a 5 kt xw component and fly down the centerline of my 6300 ft grass runway using wing low to track the center at about 5 ft. If I touch occasionally, that is alright.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Hal Terry suggests doing Dutch rolls right and left, and I end the flight with these, picking a cloud on the horizon and banking to the left with application of full right rudder to the stop, then to the right with full left rudder to the stop, all the while keeping that cloud pinned at a specific point on the horizon.
    I think you mean with coordinated rudder? Or maybe you mean while "well Rusted"?
    Gordon

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    Hi Randy,
    I know what you're talking about. I live 55 miles (80 minutes) from the airport and this year haven't flown hardly at all. I fly a Legend Cub, no flaps, and keep it light. I'm in the same predicament. My routine is this, from my 5000' X 100', 1620' ASL, uncontrolled, asphalt runway:

    At run-up, make sure the engine will quickly spin-up from absolute idle to useful rpm.

    I Take off and head to a large hayfield about 10 miles away. And, while flying there, remember that the airplane will do what IT wants to do...unless I make it do what I want it to do.

    First, I do 2-3 sets of 360* steep turns (45*-50*), both left and right, at about 85 mph. This reminds my head & body about how flying is different than driving. I make sure to use the rudder to effect a smooth roll-in and roll-out on my reference point. During this exercise I'll pay attention that I don't cock my head to "up" or level. I try to remain vertical with respect to the airframe...all the while gettin' a bit of Gs in there and getting used to it.

    Then, I'll tool-around for a minute, or so while working on getting the bottoms of the wings even with the horizon so that I'll be reacquainted with what level looks like re the wings. ...fly around a bit and then pull the power back and fly around at about 50 mph doing turns, reversing, and so forth.

    Then, I'll just pull the throttle off and hold the nose level until it stalls and do this a few times. Then, power back in, climb a bit and pull the airplane into a climbing-turning stall, but not with full power. Accelerated stalls, like this, are easy to recover and show that the airplane really does want to fly.

    I'll go back to 50 mph, or so, and do base-to-final turn practice (and with increasing bank angles) and kind of play with skidding & slipping while doing these turns. Than I'll either fly around or go back and do landings.

    The toughest part of flying for me is determining how high I am from the runway during the flare. I usually do power-off circular approaches from the perch and 3-point landings. Many times I can't fly a good half-circle and have to adjust final alignment.

    A good exercise, too, is this:
    Set up in level flight at 50 / 60, or so, and try to draw a square box with the nose of the airplane while keeping the wings level. For example; pull the nose slowly straight up a few degrees and hold it there, then move the nose horizontally to the left (using rudder and aileron) and hold it there. Then let the nose drop vertically and hold it's position; then move the nose horizontally to the right and close the box. You can do this to the left or right.

    To me, this is a much more useful exercise than Dutch rolls. This exercise is exactly what you're doing between the beginning of the flare and touch down.

    I'm anxious to hear more commentary about this subject.

    Jasperfield

  7. #7
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Anytime I jump into something new to me I do a couple dutch rolls in both directions and a few power off stalls into the wind, gets me tuned to what I'm flying quickly.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    The one core thing I think helps a great deal is simply flying slow. Real slow. With turns, etc. In front of and way, way behind the power curve. Do that for a half hour at altitude and you can kiss a lot of rust good bye.
    Hey JP,

    Son, that's good advice.
    I will say, however, that many pilots, Super Cub or otherwise, are afraid to fly really slowly because they are afraid of stalling and/or spinning...and have not had any experience with spins. I know, from personal experience, that until I had done some spins and became reasonably comfortable with it that I would not fly the airplane very slowly. Stall and spin (recovery) experience is absolutely necessary to overcome a pilot's reluctance to fly the airplane at very slow speeds.

    It's as simple as that. The best warm-up technique is a couple of spin entries from a very slow skidded turn at altitude.

  9. #9
    aktango58's Avatar
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    One thing I find very useful is a flight down the runway as low and slow as possible without letting it touch.

    Then another pass touching each wheel one at a time, when YOU want them to touch. The tail is the most difficult to achieve without letting the mains down.

    A pass on one wheel for a while, then the other is also good.

    Then come back around in a stable approach and plant it on your touchdown point.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    JP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasperfield View Post
    Hey JP,

    Son, that's good advice.
    I will say, however, that many pilots, Super Cub or otherwise, are afraid to fly really slowly because they are afraid of stalling and/or spinning...and have not had any experience with spins. I know, from personal experience, that until I had done some spins and became reasonably comfortable with it that I would not fly the airplane very slowly. Stall and spin (recovery) experience is absolutely necessary to overcome a pilot's reluctance to fly the airplane at very slow speeds.

    It's as simple as that. The best warm-up technique is a couple of spin entries from a very slow skidded turn at altitude.
    I think that's spot on. One great thing about my -11 with VGs is you really have to work to even get it to want to even think about entering a spin. And the second it does you can either do standard recovery....or just let go I'm old fashioned and think everyone should experience spins and recovery from them at some point in their training. It's an eye opener.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    www.bloomerrussellbeaupain.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    One thing I find very useful is a flight down the runway as low and slow as possible without letting it touch.

    Then another pass touching each wheel one at a time, when YOU want them to touch. The tail is the most difficult to achieve without letting the mains down.

    A pass on one wheel for a while, then the other is also good.

    Then come back around in a stable approach and plant it on your touchdown point.
    Amen, to that! When you're flying along just a foot or two above the runway for it's length and keeping aligned you're doing pretty good. Three axes...aileron, rudder and throttle. That is a good exercise.

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    AKTANGO58 beat me to it. Ground effect over the length of the runway helps to reset when going from wheels to skis and back. On takeoff once tail is up pull power to 1500 and run runway on one wheel lift off at far end.
    DENNY

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    On long runways it is useful. Doing it out of the cabin 600' strip not so much.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    Pay more attention to checklists to avoid overlooking what's normally habit. Pay more attention to airspeeds since the "feel" isn't finely tuned. Mentally rehearse emergency procedures ahead of time. What will I do when the engine quits mid-channel.... where will I land when the engine quits over the forest.... Load it up and go.

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    Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    AKTANGO58 beat me to it. Ground effect over the length of the runway helps to reset when going from wheels to skis and back. On takeoff once tail is up pull power to 1500 and run runway on one wheel lift off at far end.
    DENNY
    That's great, but go from one wheel to the other and when on one wheel go from one runway light on one side to the next light on the other side, after a while its easy. Then get the tail up, slow down with the tail up with the brakes and make a square box. When you can do that consistently you have a pretty good handle on the airplane. So says the guy that taught me to fly a tailwheel airplane. We called him rainman

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    That's great, but go from one wheel to the other and when on one wheel go from one runway light on one side to the next light on the other side, after a while its easy. Then get the tail up, slow down with the tail up with the brakes and make a square box. When you can do that consistently you have a pretty good handle on the airplane. So says the guy that taught me to fly a tailwheel airplane. We called him rainman
    Tough to follow? We will just get you to demonstrate it at the WAD

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Tough to follow? We will just get you to demonstrate it at the WAD

    Glenn
    All he has to do is leave the flaps up.

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    tetanus shot. good for 10 years.

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    RatCub Redux FrankO's Avatar
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    I can remember years ago my primary instructor talked about how many pilots would show up for a BFR that couldn't do a decent stall or slow flight...they weren't bad pilots but they got away from doing the basic drills. Stalls, slo flight, steep turns, dutch rolls, lazy 8's...I do some of it every time I go out, not just to maintain proficiency but there's nothing more boring than straight & level for a solid hour. When I lived in Yakima during the 90's, we had a routine with our then local instructor where we'd go out into what they called the lower valley, an agricultural area full of orchards and wineries directly south of town...there were about a half a dozen small dirt airstrips we'd go to, one after the other. Some were uphill, some had a curve, some had significant height obstacles, all were short (spot landings a must)...it was like a training course and after an hour of transiting those, greased landings were fairly easy...not to mention, it was always fun. One other practice we did (our local tower was pretty good about letting us do it) was fast taxi exercises, great for maintaining good rudder control. Worst thing any of us can do is not use all those exercises learned in primary, they only make you fly better...

  20. #20
    L18C-95's Avatar
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    Eights on pylons is a useful exercise, also practice forced landings, and brushing up on wheel landings and crosswind technique.

    Have never spun my 65 year young SC and prefer any spinning in an aerobatic aircraft, especially precision spinning with recovery on a heading. Most GA training types authorised for spinning, am thinking the C-152/172, don't seem to achieve stable autorotation, and after the incipient stage transition to a spiral dive.

    The Clipped wing Cub does appear to achieve stable autorotation, but have not flown a SC into a fully developed stable spin. Perhaps there is a thread out there on exploring the SC spin characteristics beyond the incipient stage. As it is only authorised for spins in the Utility envelope not sure anyone can receive spinning instruction in a SC and remain within the reduced aft CG envelope of the Utility category.

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    Good thread, I try not to get rusty but with a three year forced rebuild "rusty" isn't near descriptive enough of where I was when Pierce told me to go fly it...

    These days I fly a bunch 340, last year but unfortunately it's mostly A-B time in the 180 so I like to go out and do slow flight, steep turns, and chase some of Eaton's Coyotes whenever I switch planes or after a long stretch or have a weather break.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 09-14-2016 at 09:25 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    SJ's Avatar
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    A couple things here:

    1. I see a lot of people try the same things over and over in a landing and expect different results (the definition of insanity). If something is not working, figure out why and fix it. It's not going to get better with the same technique. If you are struggling to figure it out yourself, grab an instructor or pilot friend to help analyze it.

    2. MOST pilots when they use the term "Dutch Roll' are really talking about a coordination exercise that nearly everybody uses (my favorite in fact when getting used to a new plane) to keep the plane heading straight ahead and make coordinated banks to the right and the left staying on the same heading. A Dutch Roll is actually a non-coordinated out of phase maneuver that at least once to my knowledge has proven unrecoverable. This video clears it up.



    Great thread, Randy!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  23. #23
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    SJ, it is my impression...correct me if I am wrong...that the Dutch Roll is mimicking a side slip that many of us use when needing to lose altitude on final approach, particularly if we don't have flaps. It is a very uncoordinated configuration!

    Randy

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    SJ's Avatar
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    Yes... however, this is a REAL Dutch Roll

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

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    Huh? It's a slip exercise for keeping the nose on heading while cross controlled. A forward slip has the nose off heading.

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindOnHisNose View Post
    SJ, it is my impression...correct me if I am wrong...that the Dutch Roll is mimicking a side slip that many of us use when needing to lose altitude on final approach, particularly if we don't have flaps. It is a very uncoordinated configuration!

    Randy
    It's easy to remember Randy. A Dutch roll is not a Dutch roll, a Side slip is not to the side and a Forward slip is not forward. Got it?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  27. #27
    nightflyer's Avatar
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    I think there needs to be an SJ instructional video series!

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    go from one wheel to the other and when on one wheel go from one runway light on one side to the next light on the other side, after a while its easy.
    Tim, do we need an intervention? My Automobiles get in trouble when the do this I am told
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  29. #29
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I like to do my Dutch rolls and continue going side to side about 45 degrees keeping the cowl corners on the horizon. I try to see how fast I can do the cycle keeping it on track.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  30. #30
    SJ's Avatar
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    Glenn, are you really doing dutch rolls or coordination rolls? Does the nose yaw?(or at least the object is for the nose to stay on point)

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  31. #31
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Glenn, are you really doing dutch rolls or coordination rolls? Does the nose yaw?(or at least the object is for the nose to stay on point)

    sj
    I try not to make the nose yaw, sometimes it

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  32. #32
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    In response to your "huh?", of course the exercise is to become comfortable and good at uncoordinated flight.

    Here is the "Dutch Roll" taken from Hal Terry's book Fly the Wild and Stay Alive:

    APPENDIX A TO CHAPTER ONE – THE PRECISION DUTCH ROLL MANEUVER

    OBJECTIVE: To become familiar with the use of the flight controls for all three axes, while in a precise cross-controlled slip, to the degree that the pilot will develop the ability to make wing-down cross-wind landings with smoothness, accuracy, and ease.

    PROCEDURE: Select an altitude that will allow an inadvertent spin entry and recovery with at least 2000 ft AGL remaining. (The maneuver is very slow and mild if done correctly. If the aircraft stalls in the slip the high wing can be expected to drop sharply and an immediate application of forward stick and neutral or opposite rudder, avoiding the use of ailerons, should effect recovery with little loss of altitude.)

    If your airplane has a “Both Tanks” fuel selection, use that position to avoid the possibility of unporting a single, selected tank outlet. If “Both” is not available, the fuel tanks should be three-fourths or more full.

    Establish approach airspeed and landing configuration, approach power, with about half flaps. Fly the maneuver level or very shallow descent. Do not get slower than Vs0 plus 5 knots, or a few knots above stall buffet, whichever is higher. But once you start the maneuver, the safety pilot can help warn you about too-slow speed. You should be looking forward at the nose of the airplane with respect to the reference point. You should have a CFI or qualified safety pilot aboard because you will be concentrating on looking forward during the maneuver.

    Pick a distant object like a peak or cloud and point the nose below it. Then, if level and on speed, start the maneuver by slowly rolling the aircraft to achieve a steadily increasing bank, while at the same time using rudder control to hold the nose under the reference point. Add a little power to hold airspeed.

    Use elevator control to counteract rudder effects and prevent the nose from rising. Your rudder inputs will also influence aileron effectiveness. Upon reaching 15-20 degrees of bank, or when you no longer have enough rudder available to hold heading, stop rolling briefly (five to ten seconds) and hold the nose steady below the reference point. Now, start rolling slowly in the opposite direction - don’t come off the top rudder too soon or you’ll “scoop” out. Don’t anticipate how much rudder you’ll need – use only what is needed, when you need it.

    The technique of using only the rudder that you need when you need it is crucial to developing your cross-control skill. The measure of your success is doing what’s needed to hold the nose steadily in place.

    This maneuver can be very frustrating but keep plugging and you’ll learn it well. Remember, you’ll be in a slip, with the ball towards the low wing and using “high rudder” to hold the nose steady. This is the way the controls will be used in a wing-down cross-wind landing, except that in this practice maneuver your sole reference is to keep the airplane aligned with respect to the reference point. You are simply learning control actions and interactions in the cross-control slip. In the actual wing-down cross-wing landing you’ll be varying the bank to stop the sidewise drift you see on the runway, while maintaining heading alignment with the rudder.
    During your practice, add a little power at the start and don’t get too slow or go below a previously designated altitude. Once you are comfortable and fairly smooth with the maneuver, you’re ready to practice the real thing. Remember, rudder controls alignment/heading, ailerons control angle of bank for drift control, and elevators smoothly flare the pitch while resisting those pesky inputs from the cross-controlled ailerons and rudder.

    Fly the maneuver both with and without power. Notice the effect that power has on rudder and elevator effectiveness, and how that will change a little when you change direction (left/right) of the slip. Notice that lowering landing flaps will reduce your rudder authority. IMPORTANT: Don’t slip with flaps down if it is prohibited in your model of airplane. It’s no fun to suddenly go nose-down ballistic with loss of elevator control!


    Randy

  33. #33
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    A Dutch Roll is actually a non-coordinated out of phase maneuver that at least once to my knowledge has proven unrecoverable.
    Dutch roll, other than the coordination exercise, is a slang term for a lateral-directional oscillation(LDO), and is a nuisance mode. If it's divergent in nature (primary cause would be poor design) it is likely unrecoverable. Your cub by design has a convergent LDO, and you can set it off by holding a slip in forward flight so that your heading remains constant, then release all the flight controls to their normal positions and watch (hands and feet off the controls or you'll contaminate the result). The easiest way to characterize the motion is to follow the line one of your wingtips traces on the sky (football pointed forward or upward, maybe circular, etc). Eventually, without your intervention, the nuisance motion will dampen out and you'll be straight and level again.

    The pitch axis has a nuisance oscillatory mode as well (phugoid, or the long term mode). If divergent, both modes are highly likely to be unrecoverable and would have precluded the airplane's design certification.

    EDIT: here's a video: https://youtu.be/1_TW9oz99NQ
    Last edited by CamTom12; 09-14-2016 at 10:35 PM.

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