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Thread: I need an annual on my Cub

  1. #1
    RandyZ's Avatar
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    I need an annual on my Cub

    Hi all!

    This will be the first annual for me as a new airplane owner on my '78 Super Cub. I absolutely love this thing!!

    Hangared at Gadsden, AL.

    Any ideas on who/where I can get a quality annual done?

    The guy I bought it from can do it, but he's in SC and is not a dedicated Cub guy.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

    Randy

  2. #2

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    South Carolina is not that far. Buy him dinner, and pay him to do it.

    Or, you can wheel it in to an FAA certified repair station, where the lawyers are watching every move they make, and get a ten thousand dollar annual done by folks who routinely do Cherokees and 421s. If they are like our repair stations, they will miss the muffler AD. Be sure and get that done. We had a Super Cub go through seven annuals at three different shops, and only one did the muffler AD in 700 flight hours.

    Opinion.

  3. #3
    RandyZ's Avatar
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    Thanks Bob! For responding & the advice!

    Randy

  4. #4
    Scouter's Avatar
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    I'd buy Tom Ford a plane tix from Boston and pay his expenses to do the annual in your hangar. Good cub guy
    jim

  5. #5
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Is Tom an IA now?
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  6. #6
    Tim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefoy84 View Post
    Is Tom an IA now?
    No he just does it with his pilots license

  7. #7
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    South Carolina is not that far. Buy him dinner, and pay him to do it.

    Or, you can wheel it in to an FAA certified repair station, where the lawyers are watching every move they make, and get a ten thousand dollar annual done by folks who routinely do Cherokees and 421s. If they are like our repair stations, they will miss the muffler AD. Be sure and get that done. We had a Super Cub go through seven annuals at three different shops, and only one did the muffler AD in 700 flight hours.

    Opinion.
    Ain't that the truth!
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  8. #8
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    No he just does it with his pilots license
    When did he get a pilot's license?

    Looking at a map, you are only about three inches from Tom or Steve Pierce of Pierce Aero...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  9. #9
    evroosevelt's Avatar
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    Bring it down to AL17 at Wilsonville Alabama I do Super Cubs 256-310-3806
    EV

  10. #10
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefoy84 View Post
    Is Tom an IA now?
    He had his IA when he came to work here.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  11. #11
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evroosevelt View Post
    Bring it down to AL17 at Wilsonville Alabama I do Super Cubs 256-310-3806
    EV
    This man has loads of experience building various Cubs. Sounds like a good bet.

  12. #12
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    He had his IA when he came to work here.
    Im old, I forget! Plus I am on drugs.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  13. #13
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    South Carolina is not that far. Buy him dinner, and pay him to do it.

    Or, you can wheel it in to an FAA certified repair station, where the lawyers are watching every move they make, and get a ten thousand dollar annual done by folks who routinely do Cherokees and 421s. If they are like our repair stations, they will miss the muffler AD. Be sure and get that done. We had a Super Cub go through seven annuals at three different shops, and only one did the muffler AD in 700 flight hours.

    Opinion.
    I know I'm starting another fire, but I want to address annual inspections. We all hear those stories of $10K inspections but rarely hear how they came about.
    First off an annual (or a 100 hour) is just an inspection. Period. Yes you do have to perform some R&R operations to do those inspections on items inside structure or items such as spark plugs, but it's incidental to the inspection. Part 65.95 (a)(2) requires an IA to perform the annual INSPECTION. That means he or she is responsible for determining the airworthiness of the items that make up an aircraft. This is done in accordance with part 43.15(c) and part 43 Appendix D. This means that any 'maintenance' done during that inspection can be done by an appropriately rated person. It does not have to be performed by the IA. Simply opening up the aircraft in prep for the inspection can legally be done by a helper, or the owner.
    Now, if any maintenance items (needed repairs) are noted during the inspection, they need to be listed and the list given to the owner. If those maintenance items do not affect the airworthiness of the aircraft ('up gripes' or 'red slash' for you special guys, lol) the repairs may be deferred to a later date. BUT, if those items DO make the aircraft unairworthy ('down gripes' or 'red X') legally, you have a choice to make. A) You can pay for the INSPECTION and take your toys and go home with no new annual signed off. B) You can pay the shop for any repairs the IA has determined are needed, to make the aircraft airworthy, in which case, the IA will sign off your annual inspection for another calendar year. If you go for option A), there are two ways to go with it and they will be up to the IA. He might not sign off anything beyond the incidental maintenance. Or he may sign you off as unairworthy. Either way, be sure to get a list of all items he has determined make the aircraft unairworthy.
    Legally speaking, you can have those repairs made by someone else and the original IA can sign it off as being airworthy or you can have a different IA determine it to be airworthy. But be aware that both IA's are required to sign stating that they have performed the annual inspection. This means that the original IA will need to inspect the repairs that were made. If you go to a different IA he may do the same, if he knows/trusts the first IA (not strictly legal but it's done occasionally) or he may perform a complete annual inspection (strictly legal).
    If it was my aircraft, I'd have the annual done as a stand alone function. Then sit down with the IA if repairs are necessary and plan on how to deal with them. By the way, AD's are not part of an inspection. Treat them just as if they were a repair.
    For you owners out there, you need to consider the time put into an annual inspection beyond that which entails just looking at the inside of your aircraft. For instance, if you go to an IA that has never inspected that particular aircraft, one of the first things he will do is run your AD lists and verify compliance. AD's can cover airframes, engines, props, or 'appliances'. Never heard of 'appliances'? It's everything bolted onto an aircraft that is not airframe, engine, or prop. Things like instruments, avionics, switches, breakers, or ELTs. Each AD needs to be checked for application by make, model, serial number, date of manufacture, etc. Then each one that applies needs to be verified that it was done, how it was done, if it needs to be done again (recurring), and how it needs to be documented. This can be a simple visual check or it can require disassemble of components, both to verify and to comply. Now take that and multiply it by the number of ADs your aircraft has. Remember that your IA is taking responsibility for this for the next year. Think he's going to just take to word of an AD list with unreadable initials as verification of compliance? I don't, either. It's a good idea to note the log entry on the AD list, in some way, to show documentation of compliance. Otherwise you may be looking at time/parts to open up something like an accessory case just to check. This is also why it's good to find an IA an stick with them. He knows the paperwork was done last year so all he needs to check is this year's.
    So there are things each owner can do to keep that annual inspection bill down. Keeping up with maintenance is a big one. Make those obvious repairs before you need an annual. Comply with AD's before the annual is due. If your mechanic is not the one that performs the annual, have him coordinate with the IA. When the inspection goes easier for the IA, your bill will be smaller. And, as stated above, find a good IA and stay with him.

    Let the shooting commence, lol

    Web

  14. #14
    DarrenLucke's Avatar
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    Johnny Clark up just north of Scottsboro AL can prob - forget the field he's on. Call fbo at Scottsboro - or Guerins will know - wait, here's his number 423.653.6257

  15. #15
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Wire: I have been party to a couple of these $10,000 dollar annuals myself. One an a plane I was in the process of purchasing, a cub, and the agreement that it would be "Airworthy" and "legal" or the original owner would pay to make it so. Yes, it was a repair station that did the work, yes, it cost probably 10k by the time we were through, NO, it was NOT a rip off.

    I think we had something like ten 337's and STC's that were installed but not documented in the logs. Each had to be researched, verified for proper installation- the shop doing the new annual was responsible for the mod as they were getting it approved- then get the FAA to sign off on the modification. Takes time, time is money. Some mods came off, others were switched with 'approved' mods.

    Another big annual was a case that cables, pulleys and other stuff needed to get done. Was not unexpected, and I added a bunch more with mods I installed.

    Pay to play!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  16. #16
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Good examples of time and effort that goes along with an annual even if it's not technically part of the annual, lol. Glad you weren't on the hook for that first one.

    Web

  17. #17

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    My impression is that an IA can perform an inspection, give you a list of discrepancies, and an A&P can fix those discrepancies and you are good to go - no further IA involvement needed.

  18. #18
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    You can pay as you go or in a lump sum.

    "I'm not worried about that. I'll get it during the annual."
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  19. #19
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    My impression is that an IA can perform an inspection, give you a list of discrepancies, and an A&P can fix those discrepancies and you are good to go - no further IA involvement needed.
    Depends on whether those discrepancie affect the airworthiness of the craft. I wouldnt sign my name to an annual without verifying the completion and acceptability of said repairs.

    IAs take on a boatload of responsibility and liability in today's litigious society.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  20. #20
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    My impression is that an IA can perform an inspection, give you a list of discrepancies, and an A&P can fix those discrepancies and you are good to go - no further IA involvement needed.
    Up to the IA. Do you really want to sign it off as airworthy when there are open repairs to be made?

    Web
    Last edited by wireweinie; 07-10-2016 at 02:33 PM.

  21. #21
    cruiser's Avatar
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    According to this article that appeared on Avweb http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/189103-1.html an airplane can have an annual inspection completed "with discrepancies" and not be airworthy. The list of discrepancies and unairworthy items is presented to the owner and it is his responsibility to get them fixed. Always wondered if the unairworthy item is a bad tire and since a non A&P owner change a tire under the "owner maintenance" provisions in the FAR's can the non A&P owner now approve the airplane for return to service?

  22. #22

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    I think we spent some time on this with Bill O'Brien and Mike Busch some years ago. An annual inspection is an annual inspection. When you sign it, you either make the statement that a list of discrepancies was given to the owner or not. Your choice. But if you do an inspection, it gets entered in the logbook. It may be against the law to do an inspection and not enter it in the log. Not sure.

    I could easily be wrong, but I am a reasonably good student, and learn stuff at these IA conferences.

  23. #23
    algonquin's Avatar
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    I just went to the IA school and they told us what Bob Turner said. You are required to give the owner/operator a list of discrepancies. I've seen this a couple of times in the shop where I worked and both times the owners didn't want the entry made in the logs paid the shop time I guess( not my job to Bill) and left.

  24. #24
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    ...Legally speaking, you can have those repairs made by someone else and the original IA can sign it off as being airworthy or you can have a different IA determine it to be airworthy. But be aware that both IA's are required to sign stating that they have performed the annual inspection. This means that the original IA will need to inspect the repairs that were made. If you go to a different IA he may do the same, if he knows/trusts the first IA (not strictly legal but it's done occasionally) or he may perform a complete annual inspection (strictly legal).
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I think we spent some time on this with Bill O'Brien and Mike Busch some years ago. An annual inspection is an annual inspection. When you sign it, you either make the statement that a list of discrepancies was given to the owner or not. Your choice. But if you do an inspection, it gets entered in the logbook. It may be against the law to do an inspection and not enter it in the log. Not sure.

    I could easily be wrong, but I am a reasonably good student, and learn stuff at these IA conferences.
    I am usually 100% on the same page as wireweinie. On this issue I disagree. Bob Turner is correct. Once the Annual Inspection is completed and the IA has made his record entry with a list of discrepancies provided to the owner, his job is complete. In order for the aircraft to be returned to service as being airworthy any person who is authorized to correct the particular discrepancies may perform the described maintenance and return the aircraft to service. The ANNUAL inspection will then be considered as complete and airworthy. The original or an alternate IA does not need to be involved again unless the discrepancy was a MAJOR item which required an IA's approval. That being said I offer the following as an example:
    An IA performs an ANNUAL inspection during which he notices that one tire is worn through the cord with several serious cuts, rendering that tire not airworthy. All else having to do with the aircraft is in excellent condition. The ANNUAL inspection is signed in the records as being "not airworthy" with the bad tire noted and the list (bad tire) given to the owner. The aircraft can not legally fly. The owner is busy so he does not replace the tire until 11-1/2 months after the end of the month that the ANNUAL was placed in the records. The pilot/owner is authorized to replace the tire and sign the log book since the tire is a preventative maintenance item. At this point in time the aircraft is airworthy and may be flown without an IA or an A&P doing anything. Now a question. How long can the aircraft be flown before it needs another ANNUAL inspection to be accomplished? Answer, two weeks.

    INSPECTION AUTHORIZATIONINFORMATION GUIDE https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...-g-8082-19.pdf Page 18 Aircraft With Discrepancies or Unairworthy Conditions

    Also remember what Bill O'Brien always said, "The IA is only responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft until the ink is dry on his signature".

    Granted it is not often that a list of discrepancies is given to the owner. Usually the repairs are done before the inspection is completed. Imagine returning an airplane to service after it being stored for so long that it needed an FAA inspector to issue it an airworthiness certificate and that the required annual couldn't be approved without a test flight being performed first. The FAA had to issue a special flight permit for the test flight before the ANNUAL could be completed before the FAA could issue the permanent airworthiness certificate. Good thing that I was on friendly terms with the FAA inspector. Still needed to have all of the appropriate paperwork. In case you are wondering, this was a pristine original Widgeon which had been pickled and stored since the early 1950s. The ultimate "barn find".
    N1PA

  25. #25
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have not had anyone bring me their Super Cub to do an annual inspection only to get a list of descrepencies so they could take it home and fix it themselves. Yes I can sign off the annual inspection as unairworthy and provide the owner a list of discrepencies. Normally what happens is a new to the owner, new to me Super Cub comes into the shop for an inspection and we start finding discrepencies. Pictures are taken and then there are usually emails and phone calls. The majority of the costly issues I have found while doing an inspection have been due to modifications and repairs being done by people either without the proper knowledge and skills or not caring. The second most common problems I see are neglect of proper maintenance. Knowing the airplane and the modifications and problem areas are a huge asset and that is what makes this website so useful.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  26. #26

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    On Super Cubs and J-3s, the first thing I find, after a long process of sorting out ADs and 337s, is that the weight and balance computations are incorrect, often wildly so. The second most common, not affecting the annual, is that darn muffler inspection. The third is major modifications with 337s signed by IAs without approved data. I do not do all that many, since I do not want to make a living as a mechanic and prefer not to take business from those who do.

  27. #27
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I am usually 100% on the same page as wireweinie. On this issue I disagree. Bob Turner is correct. Once the Annual Inspection is completed and the IA has made his record entry with a list of discrepancies provided to the owner, his job is complete. In order for the aircraft to be returned to service as being airworthy any person who is authorized to correct the particular discrepancies may perform the described maintenance and return the aircraft to service. The ANNUAL inspection will then be considered as complete and airworthy. The original or an alternate IA does not need to be involved again unless the discrepancy was a MAJOR item which required an IA's approval. That being said I offer the following as an example:
    An IA performs an ANNUAL inspection during which he notices that one tire is worn through the cord with several serious cuts, rendering that tire not airworthy. All else having to do with the aircraft is in excellent condition. The ANNUAL inspection is signed in the records as being "not airworthy" with the bad tire noted and the list (bad tire) given to the owner. The aircraft can not legally fly. The owner is busy so he does not replace the tire until 11-1/2 months after the end of the month that the ANNUAL was placed in the records. The pilot/owner is authorized to replace the tire and sign the log book since the tire is a preventative maintenance item. At this point in time the aircraft is airworthy and may be flown without an IA or an A&P doing anything. Now a question. How long can the aircraft be flown before it needs another ANNUAL inspection to be accomplished? Answer, two weeks.

    INSPECTION AUTHORIZATIONINFORMATION GUIDE https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...-g-8082-19.pdf Page 18 Aircraft With Discrepancies or Unairworthy Conditions

    Also remember what Bill O'Brien always said, "The IA is only responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft until the ink is dry on his signature".

    Granted it is not often that a list of discrepancies is given to the owner. Usually the repairs are done before the inspection is completed. Imagine returning an airplane to service after it being stored for so long that it needed an FAA inspector to issue it an airworthiness certificate and that the required annual couldn't be approved without a test flight being performed first. The FAA had to issue a special flight permit for the test flight before the ANNUAL could be completed before the FAA could issue the permanent airworthiness certificate. Good thing that I was on friendly terms with the FAA inspector. Still needed to have all of the appropriate paperwork. In case you are wondering, this was a pristine original Widgeon which had been pickled and stored since the early 1950s. The ultimate "barn find".
    The problem I have with the 'list of discrepancies' approach, is that there is no actual sign off stating that the aircraft is airworthy as of that inspection date. To squishy for me. If I say the aircraft will be airworthy only after the repairs are made, how do I know the repairs are done or done correctly? Even if some one else does the repairs, if I can verify that they were done correctly I can positively state that that aircraft is airworthy. I know this part may be more my opinion than law, but I see any log entry or any form as being a firm, positive, statement. A fed or lawyer can make a lot of trouble by simply asking if that aircraft had a current, valid, annual inspection, when it left the shop with a list of un airworthy discrepancies.

    Web

  28. #28

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    You get to make your own decisions in that regard. The FAA appears to take the approach outlined by Steve above, except that I am not sure it is required to state that the aircraft is unairworthy. As I understand it, "Annual Inspection completed this date, aircraft conforms to type cert data sheets and approved modifications with the exception of items provided to the owner on a list of discrepancies. Very truly yours, ..." I usually include the name of the checklist I used.

    It is then not airworthy until the owner fixes all the stuff you listed. You are simply off the hook as to those items. You need to keep a copy, of course, and I would get the owner to sign and date it!

    Opinion, as usual.

  29. #29
    kase's Avatar
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    https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf

    Aircraft With Discrepancies or Unairworthy Conditions

    If the airc
    raft is not approved for return to service after a required
    inspection, use the procedures specified in 14 CFR part 43,
    § 43.11. This will permit an owner to assume responsibility for
    having the discrepancies corrected
    prior to operating the aircraft.
    Discrepancies or unairworthy conditions can be resolved in the
    following ways:
    1. The discrepancies can be cleared by a person who is
    authorized by 14 CFR part 43 to do the work. Preventive
    maintenance items could be clea
    red by a pilot who owns or
    operates the aircraft, provided t
    he aircraft is not used under
    14 CFR part 121, 129, or 135;
    except that approval may be
    granted to allow a pilot operating a rotorcraft in a remote
    area under 14 CFR part 135 to perform preventive
    maintenance.
    2. The owner may want the aircraft flown to another location to
    have repairs completed, in which case the owner should be
    advised that the issuance of
    FAA Form 8130-7, Special
    Flight Permit, is required. This form is commonly called a
    ferry permit and is detailed in
    14 CFR part 21, § 21.197. The
    certificate may be obtained in pe
    rson or by fax at the local
    FSDO or from a Designated Airworthiness Representative.
    3. If the aircraft is found to be in an unairworthy condition, an
    entry will be made
    in the maintenance
    records that the
    inspection was completed and a list of unairworthy items
    was provided to the owner. When all unairworthy items are
    corrected by a person authorized to perform maintenance
    and that person makes an entry in the maintenance record

    March 22, 20XX
    Total Aircraft Time
    3,202.5 hours
    Hobbs Meter Reading 975.5 hours
    I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an
    annual inspection, and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy
    items dated March 22, 20XX, have been provided for the aircraft
    owner.
    Joseph P. Kline
    A&P 1123456789 IA

    Academy Aviation
    Hangar 4
    North Philadelphia Airport
    Philadelphia, PA 19114
    Mr. Morris McCall
    1450 W. Cheltenham Ave.
    Philadelphia, PA 19125
    Mr. McCall:
    This is to certify that on March 22, 20XX, I completed an annual
    inspection on your aircraft, Co
    ndor 191B, S/N
    3945, N1234, and
    found the following unairworthy items:
    Compression in No. 3 cylinder read 30 over 80, which is below the
    manufacturer’s recommended limits.
    The muffler has a broken baffle plate which is blocking the engine
    exhaust outlet.
    There is a 6-inch crack on bottom of the left wing just aft of the
    main landing gear attach point.
    Jospeh P. Kline
    A&P 123456789 IA











  30. #30
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    .. To squishy for me. If I say the aircraft will be airworthy only after the repairs are made, how do I know the repairs are done or done correctly? Even if some one else does the repairs, if I can verify that they were done correctly I can positively state that that aircraft is airworthy. I know this part may be more my opinion than law, but I see any log entry or any form as being a firm, positive, statement. A fed or lawyer can make a lot of trouble by simply asking if that aircraft had a current, valid, annual inspection, when it left the shop with a list of un airworthy discrepancies.

    Web
    When giving a list of discrepancies you are certifying that everything except the discrepancies is airworthy. You are not responsible for the airworthiness of the corrections. As always it is the owner/operator who is responsible and the authorized person who corrected the discrepancies is responsible that they were done correctly. It is not on your ticket if they were done correctly or not.

    I understand your squishy feeling. It is only because the list of discrepancy approach is seldom used that it seems somewhat out of place. It actually protects the IA when he has an owner who doesn't seem to be on the same page with having one shop do the entire inspection and repair procedure.
    N1PA

  31. #31
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Just not something I feel good about for the next year. Seems to easy to get burned, especially when you think about the guys 'in charge' who can't all tell you the same story on 337's, CAR3 vs FAR23, major vs minor, etc.

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  32. #32
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    That's your prerogative. You just need to make your intentions clear with your customer before you start the inspection. I don't know whether or not you ever had the pleasure of meeting Bill O'Brien, I have. He did say "The IA is only responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft until the ink is dry on his signature". And he did address the discrepancy procedure as an option. The IA does not certify that the airplane will be airworthy for the next 12 months.
    N1PA

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