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Thread: J-4 project-3.14159265359

  1. #401

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    Just an FYI, have a CC FX3 that has a similar setup. Recently had a problem with the wires to the limit switches breaking due to stress when the trim wax full up or down. As I are doing this yourself you will no doubt do a better job than CC did,
    But just something to keep in mind, and when that system fails you have no trim in either direction. Lots of little lessons here. Good Luck with your project.

    DJG
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  2. #402

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    The switches are prone to be the least reliable part with the wires, depending what is used and the strain relief on each one being the second reliability issue.
    The switches I intend to use will be the same as I have on outboard jackplates I build for the performance marine industry. Granted I have a small market with a few that have been in use for a decade now.
    The tail of the plane will be a totally different environment between vibration and moisture conditions.

    Giving thought to what you bring up makes me consider an override circuit that can take the switches out of the circuit. Not something I had given thought to but I should. Easy enough to include.

  3. #403

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    The switches are prone to be the least reliable part with the wires, depending what is used and the strain relief on each one being the second reliability issue.
    The switches I intend to use will be the same as I have on outboard jackplates I build for the performance marine industry. Granted I have a small market with a few that have been in use for a decade now.
    The tail of the plane will be a totally different environment between vibration and moisture conditions.

    Giving thought to what you bring up makes me consider an override circuit that can take the switches out of the circuit. Not something I had given thought to but I should. Easy enough to include.
    Would definitely recommend some way to allow the trim to move in the opposite direction so you don’t end up stuck in full up or down, I have sent the same request to CC, will be this time next year getting their response!!

  4. #404
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I've pondered about limit switches for this application. I assume that they would be normally closed and interrupt the circuit when the limit is reached. An override would be easy to address that.

    But mechanical switches back there still bug me for some reason. Seems like a magnetic sensor or maybe an electronic torque sensing circuit would be more reliable. Otherwise, why not just have threads run out so it can't push too far? Use a spring to provide tension for reengagement on reversing. Just tossing things out there.

    I'd still want a hand-driven backup, I think.

  5. #405
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post

    I'd still want a hand-driven backup, I think.
    Like a small gear motor and belt that turns the original crank in the cockpit

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  6. #406

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I've pondered about limit switches for this application. I assume that they would be normally closed and interrupt the circuit when the limit is reached. An override would be easy to address that.

    But mechanical switches back there still bug me for some reason. Seems like a magnetic sensor or maybe an electronic torque sensing circuit would be more reliable. Otherwise, why not just have threads run out so it can't push too far? Use a spring to provide tension for reengagement on reversing. Just tossing things out there.

    I'd still want a hand-driven backup, I think.
    Correct, the switch will be set up as NC and open at limit. Easy to over ride if failed.

    This drive motor utilizes a worm gear arrangement. There is a fair bit of inertia in the motor such that by the time the current rises the worm screw would be at hard stop. Part of that being the drive unit originally was lifting a window in a car and can do so when everything is frozen. Not sure if they can move a window if it is hot out since everything is air conditioned these days. With the ball screw I am using there is very little load on the system.
    The other thing with current sensing is determining just what the true current draw will be under differing air loads and environment conditions.

    The limit switch I use is a DPDT switch with the flexible arm to actuate it. I have broken one but not had one fail, yet.

    I have had my mind on a manual backup, I intend to build a full manual trim system for the plane, then toss it into a box for the day I do not like the electric. I have yet to figure out a clutch system for this type of motor. Doesn't mean someone else knows just how to do it.

    Glenn, It might be if I build in the manual trim that a suitable drive would be brought to my attention. I know they are out there, it's not like I have not worked on my share of them in the past.
    Being this drive at least with no load does not offer much resolution, as it I do not see that you could move the stab, "Just a touch" It might be I only need tiny bits of trim, till I pull a fistful of flaps in.

  7. #407

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    Elevator bellcrank.
    I decided I did not want to wait for an order of ball mills so I pulled a larger bit out of the drawer which would still allow me to creep in on the dimensions I want.
    This allows me to smile going into our year end party knowing I have roughed out another step of this build. I never brought the camera down while the chips were flying but here are a few shots.
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    With the bearings pressed in place the spindle slides right in. This spindle will now be welded into a cross tube under the floor aft of the seats.
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    With the assembly up on the kitchen table it has the REP bearings in the outer holes for the cables back to the elevator, inner hole port side has the push pull going forward to the sticks and the inner hole right side is available should an autopilot be utilized.
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    One detail of the spindle, looking from the underside it has the nut that retains the bearings, this will more than likely be an MS 21042 locknut. The center of the spindle is through drilled and at this time threaded, this allows a through bolt with a nut on the topside essentially double nutting the bearing assembly.
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    Very little chance of failure or binding in these parts, and being most every part of all the control systems will ride on anti-friction bearings it will only need a light touch to fly.
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  8. #408

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Like a small gear motor and belt that turns the original crank in the cockpit

    Glenn
    This is exactly what I am building in my cub.
    It is using a small gear motor and is belt driven. If it fails I can yank or cut the belt off and just spin the pulley next hand. My cub is already together and flying so I was looking to make it electric trim without tearing into the tail. So far I mocked
    It up on the plane and ran it up and down just to test the function and durability before I make the bracket to permanently mount it.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  9. #409
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Yes definitely. I am at the point I can design that portion of the hardware.
    The switches will be a low current control circuit along with the toggle switches on top of the control sticks with relays driving the motor.
    I have considered making a circuit board and using transistors for the switching but I am not sure I will go that way.
    https://www.tcwtech.com/Safety-Trim-Page.htm


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  10. #410
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    After I posted I was thinking there must be some sort of servo controller out there. Then it shows up!

    Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  11. #411
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    After I posted I was thinking there must be some sort of servo controller out there. Then it shows up!

    Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    You’ll have to thank Stewart. That’s what he came up with for his wildcat cub project


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  12. #412

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    That looks like what is needed, Thank you Stewart and thak you Mike.

  13. #413

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    Trim motor speed.
    With a house full of happy friends for the holidays one would think I would get visions of dancing sugar plums in my head.
    But no, I get visions of a 555 IC timer circuit utilizing the controlled bleed down of a capacitor to vary the PW output to my trim motor so the first half second the motor will run at 1/3 speed but over the next two seconds will ramp up to full speed.

    So why is it some of my long time friends just don't think I get into the holiday spirit sitting at the table getting a sore butt while sipping on a very nice scotch that arrived in house.

  14. #414

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    With a lull in the pleasant activities as we near the last days of our holiday week here I took some time to play in the shop. I finished a few details in the drawing for the rockers needed for the rudder pedals I took the time to clamp a chunk of aluminum on the mill and drilled the holes. Working on a manual mill I curently print a drawing to make parts from. Many years ago I placed a laptop next to the DRO which personally worked better.
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  15. #415

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    More work done on the rudder rockers, With my vertical bandsaw broken down I bought a fresh blade for a local shop's saw since he has not setup for aluminum. Cool saw though, it was made between 1901 and 1909 when the company was bought by Crescent, the same company which later became know for their adjustable wrenches.
    Being right about zero F this morning when I headed over there my camera chose to stay home, here is what I cut out.
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    I followed with some time on my 18" disk sander,
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    Then clamped them in the mill and routed out where the rod ends go.
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    More later

  16. #416
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Very cool. But - - - what should we neanderthals with only hacksaw, hammer, and vise do?
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  17. #417

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Very cool. But - - - what should we neanderthals with only hacksaw, hammer, and vise do?
    Well, when I was getting out of high school some 46 years back I began buying tools. At that time I was building bicycle frames and working as an airplane mechanic.
    I spent most all my money on tools to the point now in my mid 60's I have lots of tools, and stuff but no money to do much with them.

    Before I had my own major tools I found small shops that kind of took me under their wing and did much of my critical machining for me for quite fair prices.

    I had a sad moment a few years back when a school friend told me of an old gent who just passed away in, he had a machine shop in what had been a chicken coop on his land in Conn. Only chicken coop I ever saw with endgrain wood floor. I did not recognize what that meant at the time. I had forgotten about him over time but realized he was one machinist - tool maker who guided me on the path I have taken.

    But I will say, to compliment the hacksaw, hammer and vise, The vice should be a good and pretty big one since it will be an anvil as well. A good hand held angle grinder, I greatly prefer flap wheels rather than stone. A stable drill press with a two axis movable vice on it. I have clamped lathe bits in the vice and the part to turn in the chuck. Since many of the through tube bushings are not real large this works fine.
    Then end mills can go in the chuck and the work piece in the vice.

    Measuring tools are important, a Mitutoyo digital vernier that reads out to 4 places is indispensable. Any one that only reads to 3 places or so far all the other brands at my place are just tossed in a corner. Most of the other brands just eat batteries. I have had $80 verniers that ate a battery every half hour.

    Neat thing about the projects we are doing is most machine shops think we are the coolest people in the world. Yes some think we have a death wish, but still take interest in our projects.
    I know I take interest in most anything someone is dedicated to build.

    And I will say, I am sure glad I did not have to do 15" of cutting in this ¾" bar of aluminum with a hacksaw. I could do that 40 years ago but I no longer have enough use of my right arm to even try that now. I have done it though.

  18. #418
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Well, that was partly in jest - I used to own and operate a machine shop, but since I sold the business I'm mostly back to being "innovative" - or borrowing friends' machines. I do like your post!
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  19. #419

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    I kind of wanted to write that bit about tools for those who stumble when it comes to making parts. It is generalized but touches on some bits I found of value as I grew threw a learning curve. There is some usable info for some and might go against what others have learned or prefer. After all there is more than one way to play.

    Today was making the mounting pedestals for the rudder rockers. These were machined from a 1" bar of steel and weld up under the main lower carry through, they are offset to clear the control stick torque tube while not interfering with the leaf spring in front and over them.
    Even though the camera was in the shop today it was not used till I was done making chips.
    The first shot is with a plastic bar set in the saddles.
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    All the next shots were blurry, should have left the overhead lights on for the camera, it's getting moody in it's old age. Heck it is just over two years old and is very close to 20K images taken. Hope to treat myself to a new one before OSH.
    The rod ends attached on the rocker are not flight worthy, just used for jigging.

    The engine comes off tomorrow and the fuselage gets flipped over to work under it's belly for some of the pedal system as well as I am ready to make the brace struts for the horizontal.

  20. #420

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    Engine is off the plane and my camera understood it's task and focused on the the mounts this morning.
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  21. #421

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    I made a simple jig to locate these spindles and tacked them in place.
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    The aft end of the jig was spaced down from the elevator rocker to allow for a straight pull on the cables.
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    Now the rockers can be put in place for a trial fitting.
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  22. #422

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    Back during the change of the year I kind of felt the need to get something done on control system parts. To get a parts done I deviated from my drawings and simplified the torque arm for the elevators at the control torque tube. The simplified part sure looked nice.
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    This arm was formed from a piece of ¾ square tube, drilled, cut, then ground, it is shown with a ½ tube as a jig to align it for welding in place.
    It sure looked nice but I was not getting the warm and fuzzies. Granted the fuselage was upright and low the the ground such that I could not get my eyes on it.
    Sure enough, once the fuse was flipped over and I was jigging the rudder rockers it was very clear to me I will have a heavy interference with contact to the left rudder rocker with aft stick.
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    I think I took the pictures in that session deliberately not showing the mistake, kind of like hiding from it.
    But the rework of the arm came to me during a redeisgn while sleeping so today amongst other projects the arm now comes aft and down as I had drawn it.

    Yup, one should not deviate from the plans especially when you draw your own plans, no pictures really show the issue but the original arm was to com back and down, kind of like this.
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    This might not be the final part as it is a bit rough but works as a proof of concept for now.
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  23. #423
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I'm still trying to visualize how the rockers work. You have pushrods going somewhere....

    I'm assuming you won't have the typical cable attached to the rudder pedals?

    Good point about deviating from plans, even your own. I don't really have that problem because a lot of the plans I'm using demand creative deviation--which I suppose is part of the "plan."
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  24. #424

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I'm still trying to visualize how the rockers work. You have pushrods going somewhere....
    Correct,
    Each side of my pedals are adjustable, this rendered image shows where I am going.
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    From the rudder, cables come forward which connect to the outer end of the rockers. (not shown)
    The rockers are in the lower left, pushrods going forward under the landing gear spring. These attach to a weldment of two more arms. Bellcranks might be the right term. From these are two sets of pushrods going forward to each pedal. These pushrods are each a two part sliding assembly, explained soon.
    The pedals on each side are mounted on the yellow or gold brackets which pivot on the fuselage allowing the pedals to be adjusted as desired.
    This adjustment I expect will be done with a hand knob running on an Acme threaded rod.
    Being the pedals can move so far forwards as to be stowed the four short rods are a two piece sliding assembly such that a stowed pedal is essentially disconnected or call it disabled such that it will not affect the other side pedals.

    The bellcranks look like this, all these parts as with the rockers ride on ball bearings.
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    The pushrods will be carbon fiber with aluminum ends, not that they will make up for the weight of the two steel bellcranks.
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  25. #425

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    Little bits of pedal parts, The past week I have spent some time doing detail drawings for the pedals. Got to the point of locking down the design and making parts. Here are a handful of bits that will become what is shown in the rendering in the post above.
    These are the inner brackets, doublers for the ends of thin tubes and the outer pivot for the adjustment mechanism.
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  26. #426

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    The rendered pedal image a few posts above is not current, this one is. At least today
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    Last edited by CharlieN; 01-23-2020 at 12:40 PM. Reason: image failed to attach

  27. #427

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    I had not had a real grasp on how I wanted to fabricate the inboard end of the outer control pedals. Overnight when I pretend to be sleeping I am generally designing parts or analyzing structures. Last night it was this inboard arm, so this morning I got to it.
    I knew I wanted the rod end in double sheer as is normally done but did not like the non self jigging aspect of multiple parts, so I proceeded with some trusty rectangular tube, This will take a ¼ rod end in the bottom, a ¾ torque arm in the middle at a 10.3° and I need a 19mm hole for a ball bearing to be pressed into up top, so.
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    Then back on the mill the top hole gets reamed followed with a session on the disc sander for dressing the outer shape. To guide the lower curve I use a washer as a template with a generic bolt to center it.
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    Next session will be to mill out the bottom for rod end clearance then deburr the parts.
    Last edited by CharlieN; 01-23-2020 at 04:10 PM. Reason: Somehow the photos are linked to my computer so they are prone to dissapear
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  28. #428
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Bummer, Charlie. Photos aren't coming through for me.

    Vic

    Edit--now they show up.
    Last edited by RVBottomly; 01-24-2020 at 03:38 PM.

  29. #429

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    Interesting, I replaced one in the post above that one cause it had disappeared. Now these have as well. These are loaded directly from my camera. I tend to wonder if somehow they are slaved from my computer? I would not have thought so. Lets see.

  30. #430

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    Well, not that I wanted too but it's out to pasture for it. Need to replace a growling wheel bearing in a car.
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    Ok, it's actually into the garage with it.
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  31. #431

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    Dang, over 600 feet of tubing and I do not have material to make a design change to the rudder spar. Well that wont get done this weekend unless I make it in .028 wall since I still have a fair bit of it. Being the spar is made with two tubes side by side, humm.

  32. #432

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    The fuselage is back in the shop, for a few days at least. I determined some time back that the vertical fin was to be 3" taller, so I spliced an extension on top of the existing spar. This allowed me to move forward and make the top rudder pivot and tack it in place.
    The welding on the extension is still to get rosettes added.
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    The top pivot consists of a machined stainless pin welded into a .095 plate, here it is clamped on top of the spar.
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    And initial welds and trimmed the front of the strap off since all lines up sweet. The pin is counterbored 5.8mm with a tiny through hole to allow insertion of a laser that will now be used to insure all 3 hinges align up as well.
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    And a bearing set in place.
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  33. #433

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    That little 6mm laser, it is not worth Poo. Better part of 3" off in under 4'. No wonder my wife couldn't hit anything but dirt and limbs with her 38. Luckily not my limbs.

    So I brought a 223 laser down to the shop, I know it is accurate. I turned up an adapter and corrected for how far off the first laser was.
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    The red dot is on the front lip of the lower mount.
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    Batteries were going flat fast while I went upstairs to grab the camera so the dot is far from brilliant.
    I can not do much more till I make and weld in all the bracing for the spar, and dang that lower mount tab looks nasty where I had to cut it off to move backwards a bit.
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  34. #434
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I've got some nasty tabs, too. But no excuses for them.

  35. #435

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    Waiting on parts for another project, might as well rough out the rudder spar.
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    Guess I should have brought the camera down to the shop earlier.

  36. #436

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    The past few days turned out to be 37Hrs re-drawing the tail feathers. I had originally penned my own airfoils which is essentially fine but I wanted to do a design study working with NACA 4 digit foils. Not something I care to use on the wings but still commonly used on the tail. The foils I am working with range from 3% to 6.7% thick with a varying amount of camber especially on the horizontal.
    I am drawing more than one set of structure, one using the common 3/8 tube on the trailing edge.
    I also want to consider rolling the TE tube to be oval shape as done in the past on some Wacos and a few other planes.
    And the third set will be with a thin fabricated TE, probably composite ribs and trailing structure.
    I will say though, Thursday was a marathon drawing session with over 20 hours with 9 drawings open. My mind was pretty damn baked this morning.

    About the only "work" I got done was bending some 5/8 tube,
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    Followed with re-purposing my Long EZ nose wheel to be a temporary tail wheel on this plane.
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    This swivels on ball bearings as well as most every thing else does so in this case it will have minimal affect on rudder feel.
    Granted this is not intending for this plane and being a skinny 8" tire is smaller that the two other wheel assemblies I have. It will take me some time to build out the TW release mechanism and I kind of want to know if I need to be a weight weenie or need some weight back here.

  37. #437
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Will the welding rod trick work out on .035 wall in your bender?

  38. #438

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    Will the welding rod trick work out on .035 wall in your bender?
    It works well with say ¾ .035 up.
    It truly helps on this 5/8 .028 but far from perfect.
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    The tube closest with the rods in it is the fresh bend, to the upper right is a free bend done a year ago that requires a gusset. Both of the fresh bend tubes are the same waves, but not kinked.
    The rod I used is 308 alloy 1/16 wire. I think in this tube 1/32 wire might perform better.
    Another issue I think I am up against is my 5/8 work is done on an Imperial brand bender I bought many decades ago. This is my only Cast bender and my only tool that I can not get great bends on. My other small diameter benders are machined steel and all my other dies from 3/4 either I made them or the larger sizes used on my hydraulic bender were made for me on CNC tooling. They work sweet. Heck my 1 1/2 die will bend .035 with no internal support which is used in automotive work. The larger thin wall stuff must be pulled in one sweep or the tube will spring.
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  39. #439
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I've filled the tube with sand for successful too-tight bends. Never thought of the welding rods - thanks for that.
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  40. #440

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    I have used sand plenty of times, kind of found I needed to weld a cap over one end, tamp the sand in and with the welded cap one needs to just watch one end to see if the cap on the pushes out as you make the pull. I did for some time keep an oil mixed fine sand, it worked great, I think it was 5606 that I mixed in.
    Long time back an elder gave me a wax that was a rather low melting point and was very firm. That worked great. Never learned what it was called or where to buy it. Only needed plastic tube caps to retain it while it solidified to work.

    Being out of state yesterday for a presentation nothing more was done but this morning I fitted a top rib for the vertical fin. This does not need to be spot on the airfoil but needs to remain stable under load, as such it is made from a 1x½ .035 tube and is close to being ready to tack in place.
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