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Thread: Introducing a J-4 project

  1. #161
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Charlie

    I am building up something similar........... when it came to rolling the radius or arc in the slat track I use a fairly inexpensive roller to do it, works great. I have 2 different tracks I'm working with one is just over 30" and one is around 26". I just did pi x D, cut the tube to that length and rolled till the ends touched.
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.

  2. #162

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    If I went with tubular supports it is looking like either 1" or 1.125" 304 stainless tube. I am leaning toward the 1.125 tube which I do not have rollers for. I do have bending dies since that has been a common tube used in the oil system of Porsche 911 cars I have built for decades. The tube bender does me no good here.

    These guide tubes are right about 18" long with two fasteners in plane at the front to attach to the slat and a flattened area to sandwich the rod end attaching to the bellcrank at the aft end. I would also need to add a stop onto the rear to limit forward travel.

    To me I would need to make changes to my medium tube roller, make a set of rollers for the 1.125 tube and being I would be best to roll at least 6' lengths of tube this can not be done in my lathe as I have worked medium tube since the lathe is against a wall.

    I compare this to lumping a ¾" X 10 X 36" 6061 plate in the mill and let the chips fly. Yes there is some second session machining to be done but nothing difficult.

    Material cost, pretty close to equal.

    Secondary parts, the guide rollers these ride in would be either curved face or flat wheels, neither an issue for me.

    To me time involved is the issue, If I had an employee at this time I might go with the tube but I think the billet is they way since 90% of the drawing is done and that is the major part of my time for those parts.
    Yes drawing the round tube parts ate less of my time but I would still need to draw and build the tools to make each part and each part is over an hour to build. I need 12 of them.

  3. #163

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    Humm, late April since posted here last, dang summer slid on by. I am spending a stupid amount of time putting together our September B-17 tour weekend. That is coming up soon and eating many hours a day.
    On this plane, I did not travel out to OSH this summer, I had intended to spend the week making parts for this plane but instead spent way to many hours drawing a plane that I have wanted to build for nearly 30 years. The concept just finalized in my mind and needed to be drawn. that one is an all composite bird, reliably small and efficient and now with a wide speed ratio. It will be a 550# 2 seat bird with a Yamaha sled motor providing 150ish HP. It should scoot.
    On this project,
    Allot of detail drawing has been done but not much welding or chip producing recently.
    Since recent posts have been about the LE slats some decisions and work on them has been done.
    These are the lever arms that will insure that each slat will travel evenly.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    These are fresh off the machine from their first pass of being made. A fair bit of work to do on them still. Heck not even washed up yet.
    The arms the slats will travel on will be machined from Aluminum as well, not formed tubes. They are a slender 18" long machined part with a mild curve such that the slats will travel as needed. The drawings are ready, well at least one part drawn in 3D but needs to be placed in an array so 12 can be cut in a session. I still need to finalize the drawing for the jig they will be machined on so there will be a one time setup and the parts can be flipped to cut the backside. The holdup is getting a proper tool path in Fusion 360 which is a new to me program. Steep learning curve for me.

    The need for 12 of each part is that the wings will be built such as the plane can be flown with either a short, or call it a Mid length wing as well as with a 4' extension easily added on each wing. So call it a 30' short wing span and a 38' long wing version.
    With this the main wing will have two sections of slats on each side that do not extend all the way to the root. This is a balance between the desire for ultimate low speed lift and utilizing the slats for safety.
    With the extended wing swapped on there will be 4 sections of drooping aileron.
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  4. #164
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Wow. I'm working over the details of milling a simple bell-crank. Those lever arms are an order of magnitude away from what I can imagine, at least for now.

    Question: do you use some kind of plastic material for the interface between the grooves and whatever is guiding the slats? I'm wondering what to do about aluminum to aluminum sliding contact points.

  5. #165

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    Here is a rendering of the arm the slats will travel on.
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    The left end is where the slat will attach with two ¼" fasteners, only one hole shown here. This arm will ride on rollers, two each top and bottom.
    At the right end where the through hole is shown, the part will be milled out for a rod end bearing which has a rod that connects to the tip of the arms I just milled.
    The curved lip on the right upper end is the full extension stop.
    The rollers themselves will be machined from Delrin, flanged sides to guide with sealed bearings inserted.
    All aspects of this "Ibeam" have varying thickness as needed to cope with the loads involved.

    FWIW these parts are being cut on an older Gerber 408 router. The guy that owns it was impressed when he cut a few small .080 aluminum shapes.
    He was stunned when I filled the room with chips doing a complex job he could not imagine his machine could do. would hate to try to make these on my manual machines.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by CharlieN; 08-30-2018 at 02:00 PM.
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  6. #166

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    Here is a rendering of a Slat Rib. These will be machined in aluminum and then bonded into the carbon fiber skins.
    I will make 14 of these, just need 12 but never know when one will make scrap. These will take two bolts up from the bottom retaining them onto the curved arms.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #167

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    And here are renderings of the slat pieces together.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #168

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    I had a chance to do a little bit more on this project. After allot of redesign work over the past few months I have started building the spars for the vertical fin and rudder. These are considerably different than one would find on any plane that utilizes a wire braced tail for a variety of reasons. Being the tail end of the plane is tucked over in a corner where the bicycles hang in storage I can not say these are photogenic shots.
    The bottom of the spar is built onto a plate that will be embedded into the longerons and carry the lower rudder hinge.

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  9. #169

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    I should add this pic as well since it shows the lower plate being taper milled out to reduce weight a bit yet distribute loads well. The longerons as with the lower section of the spar have an .065 wall tube as a doubler over them to spread loads further.
    As you see there are no mounting provision on this plate for a leaf spring but the provision for the front spring bolt will be there. Easy enough to add the rear mounting for the spring should the coil spring setup not be optimal.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #170
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Thanks for the update. That looks intriguing. A few questions:

    I couldn't really tell, but is your tail not going to be wire-braced?

    How thick is that plate on the bottom? I'm guessing .090?

    And, on the vertical spar, how did you decide on the spacing and location of the crossmembers? (I was thinking about the widest separation point having no cross-support--I don't know if it's necessary or not, but it looked different to me).

    BTW, your welds look very nice.

  11. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    Thanks for the update. That looks intriguing. A few questions:

    I couldn't really tell, but is your tail not going to be wire-braced?

    How thick is that plate on the bottom? I'm guessing .090?

    And, on the vertical spar, how did you decide on the spacing and location of the crossmembers? (I was thinking about the widest separation point having no cross-support--I don't know if it's necessary or not, but it looked different to me).

    BTW, your welds look very nice.
    The horizontal will be strut braced using some Carlson extrusions.
    The vertical will all be tube structure, no external braces. These tubes are 3/4-.035, pretty stout for the loads involved. Being the Vfin is an airfoil shape, this allowing me more room for structure such that I can get the torsional stiffness I desire.
    The bottom plate is .125 and milled at a taper down to 0.040 web at the front-most portion leaving the full thickness along the edges for welding into the longerons, there is a 3.7° bend under the vertical spar so the plate lines up with the longerons.
    Crosstubes, the second tube up is placed where two forward diagonals attach, the topmost is essentially mid span of the tubes and not critical unless I had chosen to utilize .028 wall material. It is a short way below the upper hinge attach point which is a bolted on machined part.
    the lowermost cross tube is a bit below the swing of the elevator bellcrank.

    At the widest point there will be substantial structure added going forwards to hold the pivot tube for the horizontal spar with a 3/8 pin aft of that for the elevator bearings to ride on.
    The rudder will pivot on 3 ball bearings, the elevators have 2 on each side.
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  12. #172
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    Was thinking about this project earlier.... Any new updates..??

    Brian.
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  13. #173

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    Hi guys, finally some work being done here. Last 3 months of '18 I was working out of state, where of all damn things I aggravated a 20 YO neck injury. So I had to wait out six week where I could not hold my head up very long each day. Getting stronger now but not great, yet.
    But beginning of February I got back in the shop and have been semi productive again.
    First I will follow up a question RV has on the vertical spar and the lack of cross tube at the wide point. That is now built after may variations of design.
    This structure carries the inner mounting of the elevator and horizontal. Here with the initial structure and then with the elevator bellcrank and cross tube the horizontal will mount in.
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    Here is this structure welded to the lower tubes with a main bracing to the spar.
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    And a more distant view with the horizontal rear spar set in place.
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  14. #174

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    i was worried about you.

  15. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    i was worried about you.
    Thank you Doug, It is life on the roller coaster but I selected the one that gets stuck in the mud at times.
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  16. #176
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    Happy to see you back at it...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #177

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    still thinking 0-200 for a motor?

  18. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve's Aircraft (Brian) View Post
    Happy to see you back at it...

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It feels good to be back at it. Allot of progress with allot of detail changes as well.

    I desire more power than the O-200, Design creep with the flaps is leading me away from the light and simple.
    I have a core O-290 here which I will complete a mount for before the Fuse is off the work table.
    If I can get my hands on a loner engine case for a Dynafocal mount I would like to get that built now as well. I might be able to make that mount without a case but the chance of error is high as well.
    But my mind is wanting more power and I may go something more controversial as well.

  19. #179
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
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    That is an interesting hinge support for the elevators. Do you have a ball or roller bearing in the elevator tube? Seems that this would be a good location for some friction reduction.
    N1PA

  20. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    That is an interesting hinge support for the elevators. Do you have a ball or roller bearing in the elevator tube? Seems that this would be a good location for some friction reduction.
    Yes, all moving joints that your fingers are in command of utilize ball bearings. This includes cable ends as well as can be seen with the REP control bearings on the ELE horns.
    Most of the rudder joints will also but some of the pivot points in the pedals will be sleeve bearing. The rudder itself rides on ball bearings though.
    So far my largest expense has been in bearings. That includes the initial tube order.
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  21. #181

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    A few pics after some welding this morning, the front end is almost complete as far as tubes go.
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    I am waiting on the material to make the diagonals from the top center engine mount up the the front spar. Then I can finish up the front of the cabin. I then move to diagonal bracing aft of the cabin.
    Last edited by CharlieN; 02-20-2019 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Deficiancy in spelling, did I spell that right?
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  22. #182
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Looking good. Those longerons are "swoopie".

  23. #183

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    I was hoping that shot would show a feel for the lines, I am looking forward to when I get the aft section built out and the stringers on so I can get the PVC wrap on it to get a true feel of it's look. That will be quite awhile from now though.
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  24. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I was hoping that shot would show a feel for the lines, I am looking forward to when I get the aft section built out and the stringers on so I can get the PVC wrap on it to get a true feel of it's look. That will be quite awhile from now though.
    I really like the look of those longerons and look forward to seeing the finished product!

  25. #185

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    me too, sortve a avidy look to it??

  26. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by motosix View Post
    I really like the look of those longerons and look forward to seeing the finished product!
    Me Too,

    The AVID does have nice lines, what mine will have in addition will be a number of stringers making a rounder looking aft section. No where near as round as a Waco but will be in line with what a true J4 had, but more so.

    The section of tube that I expected yesterday that someone in a sort facility neglected to load on a truck arrived today, took me a few hours to whittle these to fit but this is the last of the major bracing forward of the wing

    Click image for larger version. 

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  27. #187

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    I just unclamped the fuselage from the table and set it on the floor for now. Nice feeling to look at it from a different view.
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    In the morning I will do some welding on this while it is on the floor. I need to change out some shop lights since I had a few LEDS quit, then the aft sections, upper and lower get another turn on the bench.
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  28. #188

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    got a plan your following or just doing it? reason i ask is i just did a standard cub fuselage, so i didnt dwell on the weight and balance until the end, but when you guys build scratch like this, how do you do determine where things should be and how long? or how far forward or back something needs to be?
    Last edited by tempdoug; 02-21-2019 at 08:22 PM.

  29. #189

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    Yup, definitely a plan but nothing locked in stone. This already has evolved a fair bit from the beginning and I spend a bit of time most every day making changes to the drawings. Some changes are updating them to what I actually built that day. And some are evolutionary changes as I progress. Things like a few days ago I was not sure how I was going to form the tube for the lower section of the door frame. The work session that day I laid the fuselage on it's side so I could get the torch and my aging body into positions that are a bit tough with the frame upright.
    So with it on it's side, just how to form the tube came to mind. The different prospective was of great value.
    I wanted to get right to it but still had close to 7 hours of welding before I could.
    That night I redrew the door frame and built it late the next day and I truly like it.

    Some of the bigger evolution this has gone through, I like wide speed ratios, as in difference between cruise or top speed in relation to approach speed over the fence. I design for a 5:1 ratio generally. Now with the way the wing will be rigged, the double slotted flaps, drooping ailerons and the slats on an otherwise moderately clean design I honestly expect well better than the 5:1 that I originally aimed for.

    With that complexity the weight has gone up, but I do think the package will work for my needs. I honestly will not have the energy to design and build another plane after this, although I am designing one.

  30. #190
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post

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    Charlie, I noticed the eyebolts on top. Are those screwed in or welded on? Are you planning floats?

    Vic

  31. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    Charlie, I noticed the eyebolts on top. Are those screwed in or welded on? Are you planning floats?

    Vic
    They thread in. These are a 3/8 fine thread steel ring that I machined a receiver that is integral to the structure. This shot taken August 2017 when I was partially through the cabin top structure.
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    This is partially threaded such that the top section guides the fastener such that it can not be cross threaded. The upper part is turned down where it will protrude through the Lexan top skin. They will in normal use be capped off with an O-ring sealed fastener.

    On the lower longerons where the aft structure splices on are hard points built in for multiple uses, primarily designed to take float fittings but also for ski rigging and if a pod gets slung underneath.
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    This section of longeron is 7/8 .065 wall turned down to splice the fore and aft sections of the structure.
    The threaded bungs are made from stainless. One can kind of see in my welds in that shot that it was time to walk away that day
    Not to mention I am waiting on a fresh batch of 312 welding rod to finish the bungs off.
    Up front under the firewall I will be adding more hardpoints for ski wires or pod fittings.
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  32. #192

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    After spending half the day fitting doublers and welding the tailwheel arm I then finished out the session with machining the front anchor for a leaf spring. Seems odd but then that little box tube will also be where the struts that support the horizontal will attach.
    Besides what if there are issues with the coil spring setup or maybe simply the next owner might want a legacy style tail wheel.

  33. #193

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    gotta have pictures

  34. #194

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    OK, but just two for now

    This is the cross tube for a legacy tailwheel set in place with it's stainless sleeve to take a ½" fastener through it.
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    The head of the tailwheel I intend to use, not very photogenic yet. This structure has an assortment of doublers being utilized and still has diagonal bracing to be added up at this forward pivot.
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    More later.
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  35. #195
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
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    A double tail post? I must have missed the reasoning behind this one.
    N1PA

  36. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    A double tail post? I must have missed the reasoning behind this one.
    Correct, I am not wire bracing this tail and since the tail surfaces have an airfoil shape the added width available allowed me to utilize a stiffer structure.
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  37. #197

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    and be thinking how water will flow out the backend and to be able to work on things up inside there.

  38. #198

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    I am not sure yet if the belly will be composite or fabric.
    If composite it will remove easily.
    If fabric there will be 3 waterproof stringers back to the pivot for the tailwheel, essentially the LE of the horizontal. From that point back will be easily removable composite panels allowing service and inspection.
    Either method will made so it can be hosed out easily.

    Up front, the underside of the boot cowl will be a hinged surface as well so it is easy to open up when desired. I am considering the sides of the boot cowl to be hinged but not sure I will do that.

  39. #199

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    A 3 part boot cowl is well with the effort when it comes to working under the dash or on forward controls.
    DENNY
    Likes CharlieN liked this post

  40. #200

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
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    Down low in the hills of Vermont USA
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    This morning's project, getting the tailwheel pivots in place. First part was to make the pivots.
    Start with a stack of .090 4130 plates that I roughed out last night. These were tacked together to facilitate machining.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Of these the two inner parts are fitted with 1-1/8 Od tube that it turned so the inside is a snug fit on a 1" hard chrome aluminum shaft.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    These brackets and there shaft ride in UHDPE bushings that were made on the lathe.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    More coming

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