dabridgham
Registered User
Claremont, NH
They force their pilots to retire at 57 and want them in the retirement program for 20 years before that. Therefore 37 is the maximum age for a new hire. No really, that's their "reasoning".
Usfs beaver positions
- Thread starter scout88305
- Start date
Different agencies for me, but same system. So glad I’m retired now. Yes - got to play with all kinds of cool “toys,” but don’t miss the bureaucratic morass one bit!
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
These jobs are included in the federal fire fighting retirement program, which dictates the mandatory retirement age. The firefighter (or similar law enforcement) federal retirement program offers a better retirement than the “standard” federal retirement. The reason for the max hiring age is such that the applicant can meet the minimum 20 years in service for retirement before they age out.
In my opinion, they’d have a lot better luck hiring pilots if these weren’t covered under that retirement program. But, obviously, the FS can get along fine without pilots there....based on recent years.
MTV
scout88305
SPONSOR
Northern Minnesota
Do these positions require a red card?
Mot
MEMBER
Ellensburg, WA
Not a Red card per-say. Pilots in fire fighter job descriptions do need to be "Carded" for the missions they fly. https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/aircraft-and-pilot-carding
scout88305
SPONSOR
Northern Minnesota
Thought maybe being in active fire zones they needed red cards and shelter/Nomex. I hated the step test.
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
No red card required. We are required to wear Nomex flight suits and gloves and leather boots anytime we are below 500 ft AGL. We do have shelters which we would carry if we have to shuttle in to an active fire. No firefighter physical, just the FAA Class One or Two medical.
That NWCG section is actually dealing with civilian/contract pilots supporting a Federal Wildland Fire Mission and it is true that they do need to be carded. USFS pilots do not need any "Carding", just a checkflight for the various missions we fly. We do "Card" other agency pilots and aircraft to fly USFS-specific missions.
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
I have recommended for several years that we get rid of the Primary Firefighter designation and age 37 limit for the Beaver program. As everyone has stated, it really limits our pilot applicant pool by eliminated plenty of experience pilots over the age of 37. Unfortunately, USFS aviation is a very small part of the larger Forest Service and we fall underneath "Fire and Aviation Management" instead of a single "Aviation" department. There has been a minor push on to separate the two, but that probably won't happen anytime soon. And so we are stuck with non-aviation types making decisions for aviation. And that is all I'm going to say about that...
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
You would think that the pension plan would welcome late-comers--
that way, the payoff at age 57 retirement would be lower.
Better yet, mandatory retirement before vesting in the plan, so no pension payoff at all.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Rule is you can’t qualify for the program unless you can vest, is: Do minimum required years. If they didn’t do that, govt would be sued by someone who couldn’t get the annuity.
Question I would ask: Do these jobs really fit the firefighter series? Was done as extra incentive, but if it precludes hiring.....?
MTV
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
Could argue both ways. Scooping and dropping water, probably. Fish stocking and wolf telemetry, not so much...
kase
SPONSOR
Billings MT
34% of your highest 3 year average. If you averaged 94 k it be around 3196.00 a month less federal, state tax. Health insurance, survivor benefits, ( thats if you want your spouse or other to get 25% or 50% after you die) and life insurance if want to keep it. Since its forced early retirement you get a supplemental to carry you over till social security and that would be 800-1200 a month on top of the pension. Also you get a 401k if you want to contribute.
When your working you can put up to 15% in the 401k. Think new hires pay 4.4 to the pension plan plus social security 7.65%. Up to 27% or your salary will go to retirement savings. As a fed employee your take home after taxes, insurance etc is around 52-55 percent or your gross.
If you work more than 20 years your percentage increases up 1 % for each extra year.
When your working you can put up to 15% in the 401k. Think new hires pay 4.4 to the pension plan plus social security 7.65%. Up to 27% or your salary will go to retirement savings. As a fed employee your take home after taxes, insurance etc is around 52-55 percent or your gross.
If you work more than 20 years your percentage increases up 1 % for each extra year.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
Sounds pretty sweet.
Curious if there's a minimum retirement age?
Let's say a guy started flying this Beaver job at 25,
he could qualify with 20 years service & go out at 45.
My union pension's full retirement age is 62.he could qualify with 20 years service & go out at 45.
I qualified for (and took) mine at age 55,
but got nicked 6% a year for going out early.
Originally it was 25 years of service & out with a full draw,
but they had too many guys going out at 45 or 50 --
the resulting 30-to-40 years of paying full benefits would've broke the bank.
So they came up with the early-out penalty,
based on actuarial tables (aka how long you gonna live).
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
Eligibility Requirements
As a FERS LEO or firefighter, you can retire at an earlier age than most other employees. To do that you must meet the age and service requirements and separate from a covered position. The minimum age and service requirements are age 50 with at least 20 years of covered service or any age and 25 years of covered service. Unused sick leave can’t be used to meet the minimum service requirement nor can any military service, unless you go directly from a law enforcement or firefighter position into the military and return to a covered position.
Mandatory Separation
If you have completed 20 years of service under these special retirement provisions, you must be separated on the last day of the month in which you reach age 57 if you are currently occupying an LEO or firefighter position. In the public interest, an agency head may exempt an employee from mandatory separation until age 60.
Once you’ve met the years-of-service requirement, you don’t need to stay in a covered position to retire under the special annuity computation provision. You can take a non-covered job, avoid mandatory separation, and still receive the special annuity computation for those 20 years of LEO or firefighter service.
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
And one more time. Closing date of 09 November.
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/582662300
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/582662300
Attachments
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
How is it that this position is so difficult to fill?
Am I missing something about this?
Thanks, I just dont understand
Am I missing something about this?
Thanks, I just dont understand
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Dave,
It's a fire position, so an applicant has to show substantial fire fighting experience. I'm not too sure how anal the evaluators get about that, but.....combine that with Comm/Instrument, 1500 hours PIC, 200 hours seaplane time, 75 hours night, an instrument requirement, and for the fully qualified pay scale, substantial low level flight time.
AND, the successful applicant has to be "qualified the day they're hired" to meet the requirements of the retirement program (fire retirement). So, since they have mandatory retirement at (I think) 57, then applicants have to show up to work with all the qualifications noted, AND be less than 37 years old the day they go to work. Here's the note on that: Primary firefighter positions include the following age requirements: Under age 37 -OR- less than age 37 after subtracting the months of Federal Service worked in a primary firefighter/law enforcement position -OR a veteran preference eligible, older than age 37 and is requesting a waiver to the maximum age requirement.
It's the combination of fire fighting quals, the age requirement and probably the amount of specialized flight experience required that makes these positions hard to fill.
Do away with the fire fighting experience requirement (or equivalent LE, etc) and they'd lose the fire fighter's retirement program.
MTV
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
Dave-
Mike hit most of the high points. The age 37 limit and the minimum flight time requirements really limit the applicant pool. Last year we actually interviewed 4 folks and offered positions to two individuals who both accepted. One showed up and is doing great. Our HR folks found some issues during the other individual's processing, so he was disqualified which is why we are advertising again for a pilot. I think this time around we potentially have half a dozen or so legitimate candidates, so hopefully we will get our third pilot out of this posting and be done with the hiring process for a while.
Henny
Mike hit most of the high points. The age 37 limit and the minimum flight time requirements really limit the applicant pool. Last year we actually interviewed 4 folks and offered positions to two individuals who both accepted. One showed up and is doing great. Our HR folks found some issues during the other individual's processing, so he was disqualified which is why we are advertising again for a pilot. I think this time around we potentially have half a dozen or so legitimate candidates, so hopefully we will get our third pilot out of this posting and be done with the hiring process for a while.
Henny
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
copy
thank yu fer the clarification
thank yu fer the clarification
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
Exactly one year since the last post on this thread. We have 3 pilots in place and qualified and had an extremely busy fire season. Zane posted the article below over on BCP which describes the program and has some snazy photos. Goes hand-in-hand with the HDHP from earlier this year...
https://backcountrypilot.org/featur...2-beaver-ultimate-boundary-waters-bush-flying
Henny
https://backcountrypilot.org/featur...2-beaver-ultimate-boundary-waters-bush-flying
Henny
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Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
Just let me know when you are in town and I'll give you the full tour!
WWhunter
FRIEND
Near the Headwaters of the Mighty Mississippi Rive
Definitely will!!
Henny
FRIEND
Ely, MN
Like clockwork, another spring, another USAJobs posting for a Beaver position...
https://www.usajobs.gov/job/639509300
All the same age, experience and flight time requirements from the previous posts.
Video and article links also in previous posts for anyone interested in more information.
Let me know if you have questions.
Henny
https://www.usajobs.gov/job/639509300
All the same age, experience and flight time requirements from the previous posts.
Video and article links also in previous posts for anyone interested in more information.
Let me know if you have questions.
Henny
Attachments
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